Asking for a favor from the Hivemind

[Anthony Davis]

I need a favor from you guys.

A lot of the developers working on PoE read these forums and read your posts of the Obsidian forums. At first, the majority of the posts were constructive even if when they were negative. Believe it or not, that is appreciated.


The Codex especially at first was leading the way in constructive posts.


Then something happened. I don't know if it was because you weren't getting enough feedback from PoE developers, or if there was a perception that they weren't listening, or maybe it was that PoE wasn't the game you would design given the chance. Maybe a little from each or some other reason.

I don't know - the bottom line is that the passion started to turn into grumpy ass shit slinging.

"Game Sucks"
"Everything sucks"
"Etc sucks"

That can be pretty demoralizing for developers who are working hard and late to make a game FOR old school rpg fans and especially want to make a game the Codex would value.

I'm not asking you to blow smoke up PoE developer's asses, I'm not asking you to lie about the game.

I'm asking you to be constructive.

I'm asking you to spare an extra 30 seconds, and draw upon your experience as an RPG fan to give reasons and context as to why something does or does not work.

I'm asking for some understanding that this game was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games - so as much as Josh, Adam, and Tim would rather make a TB game - it isn't going to happen (this time).

I'm asking for you to understand that if you think System "A" sucks, that maybe there isn't time or budget to completely refactor the entire thing and all that can be done is minor tweaks to improve it - not every new system is a home run.


Here is an honest point that many at Obsidian realize about the Codex:
Buried beneath all the "crap", the Codex is actually a wealth of astute and critical RPG knowledge. It's also a that society truly welcomes everyone into the ranks of RPG fans. Whether they are gay, furry, trans, straight, atheist, religious, whatever - all are welcome as much as the next... in the Codex's own "kick you in the nuts that's how we say hello" around here type of way.


I just see these guys and gals over there working hard - and they more and more shit posts they get the less they want to read them.




TL;DR #1 - wah wah wah - ADavis is a crybaby for his girlfriends over on PoE.


TL;DR #2 - for real - if you guys want to be read - write something worth reading in a constructive fashion.

 

[Anthony Davis]

For those of you who ARE writing things in a constructive fashion, o7.


...and no, I don't think the Codex are the only ones being super negative - but you are the only ones I talk to. You are the ones I defend against people who have never been here and only hear shit rumors.

 

[Infinitron]

Wow. This is kind of unexpected.

I don't think the attitude of the "core" Codex population towards PoE has actually gotten worse. They're mostly just ignoring the game entirely.

The PoE thread is now Sensuki's soapbox for commentary on dev posts, with a few edgy visitors from the Obsidian forums (hi Bester, hi Seari) egging him on while Shevek provides some push-back.

It's not exactly sympathetic (or incredibly constructive...) but I wouldn't say it's hostile in the way that you describe. Except for those edgy outsiders.

 

[Gregz]

Here is an honest point that many at Obsidian realize about the Codex:
Buried beneath all the "crap", the Codex is actually a wealth of astute and critical RPG knowledge.

You guys are our heroes, and this is the Codex.

Praise is very scant around here and if you see it given, ask yourself...why did that game get their attention? What did it do right? What did that team intentionally not do?

What is it about KoTC, M&B:WB, D:OS or Underrail or the other very very few games coming out lately that made the Codex say, that's a good game!

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

what a strange post

struggling to surmise what sort of in-depth roundtable discussions were had that led to this thread

can only come up with 'some staff member has hurt feelings' and/or 'someone with $$ is pressuring us to watch who we associate with'

neither of which is a reason to try and curtail the cpdex user base

strange


i smell pressure

 

[Anthony Davis]

Wow. This is kind of unexpected.

I don't think the attitude of the "core" Codex population towards PoE has actually gotten worse. We're mostly just ignoring the game entirely.

The PoE thread is now Sensuki's soapbox for commentary on dev posts, with a few edgy visitors from the Obsidian forums (hi Bester, hi Seari) egging him on while Shevek provides some push-back.

Hey Infini,

I probably wasn't clear enough - I'm not actually sure who is doing the shit posting on the Obsidian Forums and even if they are (for sure) from the Codex.

I just want to be sure it isn't the Codex.

I'm sorry for being too accusatory.

 

[Kane]

 

[Anthony Davis]

what a strange post

struggling to surmise what sort of in-depth roundtable discussions were had that led to this thread

can only come up with 'some staff member has hurt feelings' and/or 'someone with $$ is pressuring us to watch who we associate with'

neither of which is a reason to try and curtail the cpdex user base

strange


i smell pressure

I am secretly the Codex Wrangler. You got me.

 

[Darth Roxor]

This sounds like some bizarre blackmail along the lines of 'stop hating or we'll ignore you altogether'

 

[Infinitron]

I probably wasn't clear enough - I'm not actually sure who is doing the shit posting on the Obsidian Forums and even if they are (for sure) from the Codex.

Wait, wait, wait. This is about YOUR forums? You think people from here are invading you?

From my experience, that's almost certainly not the case. The Codex, for all its edginess, is rarely THE most edgy element in the community surrounding an upcoming game. The reason for that is that we're a generalist RPG forum where people can always move on to something else if they're not satisfied with a particular game. The real crazies will always emerge in game-specific forums, because they're obsessed with that one game.

That's how it was with Wasteland 2, for instance. Ask Brother None.

 

[Neckbeard Shitlord]

Realtime with pause sucks, and there is no DnD license to help add complexity and make it palatable, so it's a doomed project as far as I am concerned.

http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/josh-sawyer-explains-how-to-balance-an-rpg.93761/

Biggest thing besides that is I disagree with pretty much all of Josh Sawyer's ideas on game balance. Catering to make sure people can't mess up isn't a real issue. Real issue is when there's simply nothing fun in the game system. When you reach a point where your dwarven wizard or your wookie thief are going to be just as valid combos as every other combo, you may as well just skip the game.

He has pretty much the opposite philosophy as the creator of DnD which is a wildly fun system.

So yes it's kinda impossible to be constructive when the base requirements are just not there to make what you desire in a game. Trying to make a spiritual successor to infinity engine doesn't make sense, and isn't possible without DnD. I mean if you can do that then all well and good, let us know when it comes out, but the sticking points I have are not something that can be addressed easily they'd require a whole other objective and philosophy.

 

[Hormalakh]

nah I don't think there's pressure from Obsidian - it's just that ADavis likes the dex and doesn't want his coworkers shitting on the forum - at least that's the way I see it.

I think a big part of the issue, at least on the forums, is that many of these designs are, as you said, too far along to actually give much feedback on. Mechanics like engagement and combat as it plays is just so far along that it's impossible for us to give much feedback now and the devs can't make 180 degree turns. Speaking on my own behalf, it just feels like it's too late to give feedback and that the game is where is the game is and that only a few final finishing touches are being made before it gets released. So I get frustrated and just sort of wish that some of the bigger changes were made more clear earlier so that we could give more feedback.

Also, giving constructive feedback sometimes doesn't work because you'll have people troll you to hell on the Obsidian forums. Sorry to say this, but some of the moderators on the boards are complicit in this and it's just easier to say "shit sucks" even if it's not necessarily true.

At the end of the day, I'm still looking forward to playing this game even with its rough edges.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I probably wasn't clear enough - I'm not actually sure who is doing the shit posting on the Obsidian Forums and even if they are (for sure) from the Codex.

Wait, wait, wait. This is about YOUR forums? You think people here from here are invading it?

From my experience, that's almost certainly not the case. The Codex, for all its edginess, is rarely THE most edgy element in the community surrounding an upcoming game. The reason for that is that we're a generalist RPG forum where people can always move on to something else if they're not satisfied with a particular game. The real crazies will always emerge in game-specific forums, because they're obsessed with that one game.

That's how it was with Wasteland 2, for instance. Ask Brother None.

If you are sure, then I am actually relieved. Again, I find the codex to be supportive and constructive, in your (our) own way. I don't know who is who on the Codex/Obsidian forums.

 

[Anthony Davis]

nah I don't think there's pressure from Obsidian - it's just that ADavis likes the dex and doesn't want his coworkers shitting on the forum - at least that's the way I see it.

I think a big part of the issue, at least on the forums, is that many of these designs are, as you said, too far along to actually give much feedback on. Mechanics like engagement and combat as it plays is just so far along that it's impossible for us to give much feedback now and the devs can't make 180 degree turns. Speaking on my own behalf, it just feels like it's too late to give feedback and that the game is where is the game is and that only a few final finishing touches are being made before it gets released. So I get frustrated and just sort of wish that some of the bigger changes were made more clear earlier so that we could give more feedback.

Also, giving constructive feedback sometimes doesn't work because you'll have people troll you to hell on the Obsidian forums. Sorry to say this, but some of the moderators on the boards are complicit in this and it's just easier to say "shit sucks" even if it's not necessarily true.

At the end of the day, I'm still looking forward to playing this game even with its rough edges.

This is actually EXACTLY the point I wanted to make - but I suck at writing while trying to be clever.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

phew, well that was a traumatic few minutes

 

[Kane]

Anthony, from one super professional software developer to another - this thread is shit.

 

[Hormalakh]

The way I see it is that Obsidian is still relearning how to make isometric IE-likes. It's been a while and Baldur's Gate I wasn't even close to perfect (I'm playing the BGT again and there are quite a few places I'm glad Josh Sawyer had his say in PoE and I wish that the older games have those touches).

The hope for me is that when the game comes out and they get to see people play the game in the wild, as it were, that some substantial changes will be made to how the mechanics work in the next game.

 

[Starwars]

Doesn't sound like blackmail to me. Unless "we're gonna stop reading your shit posts because they are shit posts. I thought maybe you guys would *like* to be read cause, you know, you normally have strong and good opinions on things" is considered blackmail.

That said, I don't think there's a whole lot to do about it. There's only so much to be said in my opinion now that the beta has been out for a long time, you "catch" the feedback given at the new builds, and read some of the bigger posts that actually contain some valid information. Most people are not gonna have the tenacity or will to post Sensuki-length novels about the game. It's also to be expected. You guys are gonna get a ton of "well, I told them back in beta and yet they didn't fix it!" stuff when the game is released, just like other games with public betas or early access. That always draws the most attention and gets the most forum-space, I think partly because as time goes on, people get tired of arguing against it (I think my one lasting memory from the PoE beta will be ENGAGEMENT MECHANICS). I post some on on the forums, but mostly I'm really looking forward to the game quietly.
People also don't understand the value of encouragement (not fellating). On a place like the Codex (and much of the internet), the argument to counter that will always be "bohoo, those poor developers", white-knighting and basically equating constructive criticism with bitching and nagging about the game. It's the Internet I guess? We're all tough guys here.

Of course, I'd be all for forcing Seari to actually post something constructive once in a while, instead of doing the whole "one angry sentence" nearly every post.

But yeah, as time goes on, the more design gets set in stone, the more negative and frustrating the tone will get I think. Gone is the "thrill" (if there ever was any) of playing the PoE beta, and left are the nagging issues, the things about the game that you hate so very much. Especially since the backer beta is only one small slice of the game, it gets repetitious to play.

 

[Alex]

Well, I mostly ignored PoE once I understood it isn't the kind of game I would like to play. I made a few snide remarks along the way, but I was just trying to be funny, I hope no one took offence from anything I've said. I never posted on the Obsidian forums, however.

My main issue with PoE is that its designers are always looking to gameplay solely from the game perspective. The weird inventory system, the "everyone has spells" thing, the quest XP only aspect, the idea of having every attribute important for every class... These things feel way too forced and unnecessary. I mean, of course you can make a good game with those elements. But my issue is that this kind of design decision clearly showed that the design philosophy behind of the game is one that I don't care for. But if that is the game you want to play, go ahead! And sorry for raining on your parade.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony, from one super professional software developer to another - this thread is shit.

Yeah - I could have done better.

 

[Kane]

Anthony, from one super professional software developer to another - this thread is shit.

Yeah - I could have done better.

By not posting.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Well, I mostly ignored PoE once I understood it isn't the kind of game I would like to play. I made a few snide remarks along the way, but I was just trying to be funny, I hope no one took offence from anything I've said. I never posted on the Obsidian forums, however.

My main issue with PoE is that its designers are always looking to gameplay solely from the game perspective. The weird inventory system, the "everyone has spells" thing, the quest XP only aspect, the idea of having every attribute important for every class... These things feel way too forced and unnecessary. I mean, of course you can make a good game with those elements. But my issue is that this kind of design decision clearly showed that the design philosophy behind of the game is one that I don't care for. But if that is the game you want to play, go ahead! And sorry for raining on your parade.

If you didn't post on the Obsidian forums, no worries then.

I should just delete the thread since I botched this point and post so badly.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony, from one super professional software developer to another - this thread is shit.

Yeah - I could have done better.

By not posting.

You are making me want to post more now.

 

[Infinitron]

If you are sure, then I am actually relieved. Again, I find the codex to be supportive and constructive, in your (our) own way. I don't know who is who on the Codex/Obsidian forums.

Well, we do we have one particular poster here who has undoubtedly been doing a lot to fan the flames, but although I think he's often disingenuous, it's not his fault that there's an army of pissed off backers on your forums. Like I said, Codexers generally aren't into that kind of crusading. We like being on the Codex. Why be angsty on some company forum when you could be reading the TITS thread instead?

One thing, though, Anthony. This phenomenon of angry backers? It could hurt PoE's user Metacritic score. That happened to Wasteland 2. Bunch of pissed off backers brought it down to 7.x on the day of release and it never recovered.

 

[Kane]

Anthony, from one super professional software developer to another - this thread is shit.

Yeah - I could have done better.

By not posting.

You are making me want to post more now.