Asking for a favor from the Hivemind

[Weirdstuffinspace]

I'm asking for some understanding that this game was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games.

I'm asking for you to understand that if you think System "A" sucks, that maybe there isn't time or budget to completely refactor the entire thing and all that can be done is minor tweaks to improve it - not every new system is a home run.

Nobody asked for a new system. It was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games. It's not. Now we just wait how bad it is and whether it is fun on it's own terms. Also it means no more kickstarter money for you guys.

Next time just ask money for a rtwp game which may look like the IE games but play nothing like them. See how much you get.

 

[Starwars]

Actually, I asked for a new system.

 

[Weirdstuffinspace]

Well fuck you then.

 

[Anthony Davis]

If you are sure, then I am actually relieved. Again, I find the codex to be supportive and constructive, in your (our) own way. I don't know who is who on the Codex/Obsidian forums.

Well, we do we have one particular poster here who has undoubtedly been doing a lot to fan the flames, but although I think he's often disingenuous, it's not his fault that there's an army of pissed off backers on your forums. Like I said, Codexers generally aren't into that kind of crusading. We like being on the Codex. Why be angsty on some company forum when you could be reading the TITS thread instead?

One thing, though, Anthony. This phenomenon of angry backers? It could hurt PoE's user Metacritic score. That happened to Wasteland 2. Bunch of pissed off backers brought it down to 7.x on the day of release and it never recovered.

I really want PoE to succeed. I am not on the project, but everyone on that team is my friend - and maybe I am just being an over protective zealot. The MC issue you bring up does worry me.

 

[Hormalakh]

If you are sure, then I am actually relieved. Again, I find the codex to be supportive and constructive, in your (our) own way. I don't know who is who on the Codex/Obsidian forums.

Well, we do we have one particular poster here who has undoubtedly been doing a lot to fan the flames, but although I think he's often disingenuous, it's not his fault that there's an army of pissed off backers on your forums. Like I said, Codexers generally aren't into that kind of crusading. We like being on the Codex. Why be angsty on some company forum when you could be reading the TITS thread instead?

One thing, though, Anthony. This phenomenon of angry backers? It could hurt PoE's user Metacritic score. That happened to Wasteland 2. Bunch of pissed off backers brought it down to 7.x on the day of release and it never recovered.

Are you serious? Sensuki's posts are good. Jesus, just because he's a tad straight-to-the-point about his opinions, you're picking on him? His points are actually fairly constructive. And having talked to him long enough, he's absolutely not disingenuous.

He and I are in the same boat: we had very high expectations for this game. Very high. Yes, perhaps it was foolish of us to think that it was possible for Obsidian to create perfection on the first try, but we were hopeful and had that expectation. Sure that may come off as negative, but we just want the game to be as good as possible given the constraints.

 

[Bleed the Man]

I'm asking for some understanding that this game was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games.

I'm asking for you to understand that if you think System "A" sucks, that maybe there isn't time or budget to completely refactor the entire thing and all that can be done is minor tweaks to improve it - not every new system is a home run.

Nobody asked for a new system.

Even if that statement was true (which is not), it was pitched as a new system altogheter from it's very conception. Yes, heavily inspired by D&D, but a new one. You gave money knowing that, or at least you should have.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I'm asking for some understanding that this game was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games.

I'm asking for you to understand that if you think System "A" sucks, that maybe there isn't time or budget to completely refactor the entire thing and all that can be done is minor tweaks to improve it - not every new system is a home run.

Nobody asked for a new system. It was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games. It's not. Now we just wait how bad it is and whether it is fun on it's own terms. Also it means no more kickstarter money for you guys.

Next time just ask money for a rtwp game which may look like the IE games but play nothing like them. See how much you get.

It feels like IE to me, except better (not counting the DnD stuff). It doesn't have the fakey swings to fill the time and it doesn't have the lost attacks and other bugs because you ran out of time on your turn. It *fixes* a lot of systemic issues IMHO.


Also, history lesson, the IE engine was originally developed for an RTS game - like Starcraft. True story. DnD was put into the Infini Engine after.

 

[Infinitron]

Even licensing AD&D verbatim wouldn't guarantee anybody's happiness. There's plenty of choices to be made on the developer end that can radically change the feel of a game. Gary Gygax didn't have a strong opinion on recovery times, kiting, and movement speeds in real-time implementations of his ruleset.

 

[Kane]

If PoE is good there is nothing to fear. Instead of bitching on the Codex, Obsidian Entertainment needs to make the Codex their bitch.

 

[Athelas]

Can you tell us about any lessons Obsidian has learned from the whole development process and that they would apply to future (Kickstarted) RPG's?

 

[Raapys]

It was clear from the kickstarter that PoE wasn't using AD&D mechanics. So they were gonna have to make some new systems. The goal was to make the experience have similar feeling to the IE games.

Sorry that you had a specific definition of what it has to have to be a spiritual successor to IE games but what they have presented is within the scope of what the kickstarter promised.

I think they failed to actually identify what made the IE games successful and good though. Granted, there were various reasons for the various IE games, but the most successful IE game was BG2. And one of the most important and appreciated element in BG2 was its spells. It's generally recognized as the best spellcaster game ever made. Yet where's that focus in PoE?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Whether they are gay, furry, trans, straight, atheist, religious, whatever - all are welcome as much as the next...

Just don't tell Bioware.

Next time just ask money for a rtwp game which may look like the IE games but play nothing like them. See how much you get.

I don't recall them promising a game that plays exactly like BG.

Edit:

It was clear from the kickstarter that PoE wasn't using AD&D mechanics. So they were gonna have to make some new systems. The goal was to make the experience have similar feeling to the IE games.

Sorry that you had a specific definition of what it has to have to be a spiritual successor to IE games but what they have presented is within the scope of what the kickstarter promised.

I think they failed to actually identify what made the IE games successful and good though. Granted, there were various reasons for the various IE games, but the most successful IE game was BG2. And one of the most important and appreciated element in BG2 was its spells. It's generally recognized as the best spellcaster game ever made. Yet where's that focus in PoE?

BG2 was also a safe sequel (i.e. building on top of the existing foundation). PoE should be compared to BG1 as that's the only fair comparison, although to be honest, I hope we'll be comparing it to PST or MotB when it's out.

 

[Infinitron]

It's definitely a problematic situation when you have this non-insignificant audience of people for whom the "Infinity Engine experience" is practically defined by cheesing it with mages in BG2, with the rest of the IE games just a footnote to that, if they like them at all.

 

[Weirdstuffinspace]

I'm asking for some understanding that this game was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games.

I'm asking for you to understand that if you think System "A" sucks, that maybe there isn't time or budget to completely refactor the entire thing and all that can be done is minor tweaks to improve it - not every new system is a home run.

Nobody asked for a new system. It was kickstarted as a spiritual successor to the IE games. It's not. Now we just wait how bad it is and whether it is fun on it's own terms. Also it means no more kickstarter money for you guys.

Next time just ask money for a rtwp game which may look like the IE games but play nothing like them. See how much you get.

It feels like IE to me, except better (not counting the DnD stuff). It doesn't have the fakey swings to fill the time and it doesn't have the lost attacks and other bugs because you ran out of time on your turn. It *fixes* a lot of systemic issues IMHO.


Also, history lesson, the IE engine was originally developed for an RTS game - like Starcraft. True story. DnD was put into the Infini Engine after.

I know about the development of the rts engine. Probably it's all there in the pitch that it's using the IE games as inspiration etc. But the direction taken, no kill xp, the dreadful balance, all the complaints you've no doubt read ad boredom, makes that to me this simply does not smell like IE. Not that they were so awesomely good, but that was the expectation. Really it doesn't matter anymore. I'll play it when it's done and hope for the best.

 

[Raapys]

I think they failed to actually identify what made the IE games successful and good though. Granted, there were various reasons for the various IE games, but the most successful IE game was BG2. And one of the most important and appreciated element in BG2 was its spells. It's generally recognized as the best spellcaster game ever made. Yet where's that focus in PoE?

BG2 was also a safe sequel (i.e. building on top of the existing foundation). PoE should be compared to BG1 as that's the only fair comparison, although to be honest, I hope we'll be comparing it to PST or MotB when it's out.

That's true in a way, but also not. BG1 created an entirely new style of gameplay. PoE is merely attempting to recreate it. Should be a lot easier.

It's definitely problematic when you have this non-insignificant audience of people for whom the "Infinity Engine experience" is practically defined by cheesing it with mages in BG2, and the rest of the games are just a footnote to that, if they like them at all.

Definitely, but you have to take the good with the bad. The Baldur's Gate series offered the best gameplay ever for people who enjoy to play mages, and that's the way it is.

As for me personally, I'm just ignoring it since I've understood by now that it's not "my IE game" they're recreating.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

BG2 was also a safe sequel (i.e. building on top of the existing foundation). PoE should be compared to BG1 as that's the only fair comparison, although to be honest, I hope we'll be comparing it to PST or MotB when it's out.

Is the combat that good?

 

[Anthony Davis]

VD is right, the single biggest (singlest?) thing that contributed to BG2's success was BG1.


PoE so far is probably 25 hours crit path and 60+ hours for the full game. I think the story/world/background, is rich and deep. The writers are doing a great job with the dialog - and to me, the combat is more fun than IE.

Is it perfect? No.
Is every *new* system perfect? No.

Is it a good foundation? Hell yes.

 

[Alex]

It's definitely problematic when you have this non-insignificant audience of people for whom the "Infinity Engine experience" is practically defined by cheesing it with mages in BG2, and the rest of the games are just a footnote to that, if they like them at all.

Well, I have yet to see someone for whom it was defined by DotA...

 

[Irenaeus]

I'll judge the final game, I'm counting on you guys.

As for PoE attracting a lot of angry detractors on Codex, I blame Roguey and his trolling of retards.

 

[Hormalakh]

It's definitely problematic when you have this non-insignificant audience of people for whom the "Infinity Engine experience" is practically defined by cheesing it with mages in BG2, and the rest of the games are just a footnote to that, if they like them at all.

Well, I have yet to see someone for whom it was defined by DotA...

That's not fair. Look, whether people like it or not, IE-games were RTwP and were based-off of RTSs. I think it's important when recreating that GENRE of a game, that developers look at the advances and design decisions made in both the IEs and RTSs to answer those sorts of problems. They don't have to copy those solutions verbatim, but they need to at least understand why certain design decisions were made.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I'm not really sure why people get so hung up on the "no xp for combat" thing.

Usually the same or similar people cheer VBtM.
They also cheer when they are alternate non-combat solutions.


I'm not saying one way of the other is better, I'm just saying I don't get the utter intractability on this issue.

I can easily view it this way.

"I killed 25 vampires in this tomb and got 5000 xp total!"

versus

Quest, kill all the vampires in the tomb. Reward is 5000 xp.


I'm not trying to belittle or demean anyone who feels it is an important issue. I'm saying I don't understand why it is so to you. Please, I mean this, explain it to me.

 

[Irenaeus]

D&D has the per monster XP thing

Personally, I think both methods are valid, depending on approach of the game. I can enjoy this per quest thing too, as I certainly enjoyed it in VtmB.

 

[Athelas]

The pitfalls of pitching a game that is 'a spiritual successor to <X>', wherein X had kill XP.

 

[Hormalakh]

The only response I've heard is that they like the granularity of XP advances. If you are at 5000 XP and you need 5250 XP to advance to the next level, having to wait until you finish the quest before you can get that phat XP can be problematic.
The other explanation is that they like "varied" XP, whatever that means. I think at least from the beta it wasn't clear that certain quests have multiple solutions.

Though, I really don't think that XP is the main reason that PoE has a lot of detractors. There are as many people happy with the lack of combat XP as there are people pissed that it doesn't have combat XP.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think the story/world/background, is rich and deep. The writers are doing a great job with the dialog...

Can't wait.

Probably it's all there in the pitch that it's using the IE games as inspiration etc.

Inspiration doesn't mean exactly like. It means a game in the style of BG, i.e. a RTwP adventure with a lot of combat.

For the record, the pitch says: Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

...no kill xp...

:gasp:

No more obsessive-compulsive XP hunt? How dreadful.