Asking for a favor from the Hivemind

[Infinitron]

Anthony Davis
Even though I hate unity and find the pre-order DLC thingy that Paradox no doubt forced you to make distasteful

The pre-order DLCs are just the Kickstarter backer-exclusive perks. Divinity has 'em too: http://store.steampowered.com/app/306320/

You gotta link for PoE's?

They're not for sale separately, it's a pre-order bonus. Look at the game's Steam page: http://store.steampowered.com/app/291650/

 

[Anthony Davis]

ADavis is the kind of guy I would love to have as a co-worker. He looks out for people, even if it's not his own team members. I respect the sentiment of this thread.

I mean, if someone would ask my opinion of PoE in its current state, I'd still say that there are some super-intrusive interface elements (that you would have to be blind not to be bothered by) and questionable combat mechanics, along with weird ideas for character development.

But from now on, I could refrain from saying it sucks all manner of dicks and balls, all over, all day and all night.

Thanks, man. I'm also watching out for the Codex too. If you guys went away or if I got banned from posting here, I could only post at places that hunt down thought crimes to protect special snow flakes.

I do wish I could post in the Codex way - but I do still have to behave in a professional manner (for a game dev - that bar is still kind of low though).

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony Davis
Even though I hate unity and find the pre-order DLC thingy that Paradox no doubt forced you to make distasteful

The pre-order DLCs are just the Kickstarter backer-exclusive perks. Divinity has 'em too: http://store.steampowered.com/app/306320/

You gotta link for PoE's?

They're not for sale separately, it's a pre-order bonus. Look at the game's Steam page: http://store.steampowered.com/app/291650/

oooooh those bonuses! yeah, that's us. Anything with a pet pig in it, that's josh 1000000%.

Why? cause pigs rule, that's why.

 

[Lhynn]

No kill xp doesn't matter. What matters is the moba inspired %-based system, the horrible and uninspired spell collection, the complete lack of hard counters and the completely fucked up engagement system.

We know that the game will excell in storytelling, c&c and quests. The narrative design has always been Obsidian's strongest points, but this was your one chance to make a game that actually plays well too. And you fucked it up.

I have to add, xp distribution does matter in the context of this game, because it dictates in a way how the game is played.

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.
It could have been so much more interesting. Instead we get forced down a linear progression more artificial than the one we got in BGI or BGII.
Also the completely boring story of the world, no imagination, nothing that makes me want to play it, explore it.

Ah shit, this game makes me have unhappy thoughts. Wasted potential.

PS: As some people have pointed out, no one at the codex wants obsidian to fail (well, maybe FSM does), we are rooting for you.

 

[Bleed the Man]

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

But you could still skip combat, get the awesome reward, and then go back and kill everything for the XP, right? Isn't this kind of "fun" precisely what Sawyer wants to end?

 

[Athelas]

I have to add, xp distribution does matter in the context of this game, because it dictates in a way how the game is played.

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

If I ever get to meet the designers of Deus Ex, I'll be sure to let them know their work was lazy and nonsensical.

 

[Anthony Davis]

No kill xp doesn't matter. What matters is the moba inspired %-based system, the horrible and uninspired spell collection, the complete lack of hard counters and the completely fucked up engagement system.

We know that the game will excell in storytelling, c&c and quests. The narrative design has always been Obsidian's strongest points, but this was your one chance to make a game that actually plays well too. And you fucked it up.

I have to add, xp distribution does matter in the context of this game, because it dictates in a way how the game is played.

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.
It could have been so much more interesting. Instead we get forced down a linear progression more artificial than the one we got in BGI or BGII.
Also the completely boring story of the world, no imagination, nothing that makes me want to play it, explore it.

Ah shit, this game makes me have unhappy thoughts. Wasted potential.

PS: As some people have pointed out, no one at the codex wants obsidian to fail (well, maybe FSM does), we are rooting for you, so will you stop fucking up already?

That's not a bad idea - but I do think it would require a lot more content than they already have and thus more work. Remember the game is already ~60 hours if you do everything.
I do think the previous analogy of BG1 is the most correct one I've heard so far.

PoE is no more linear than BG1 or BG2 - at least for the parts I have seen.

I'm not sure what you know about the story and the world so far, what was boring to you? How much of the world and story do you know?

 

[Alex]

Something I've noticed is that some people tend to confuse between "games with lots of combat" and "combat games". Not the same thing.

Blackguards is a combat RPG. Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity are RPGs that happen to have lots of combat. I do not want to be "scored" for combat in an IE game, wtf.

If combat isn't the "heart" of PoE, they should have made combat more like Baldur's Gate, where it is broken, but at least it is fun.

 

[Anthony Davis]

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

But you could still skip combat, get the awesome reward, and then go back and kill everything for the XP, right? Isn't this kind of "fun" precisely what Sawyer wants to end?

This. Lionheart struggled with the exact same problem you point out. This is why it takes more work - and in many cases, it wouldn't be noticed by the majority of the players.

 

[Infinitron]

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

But you could still skip combat, get the awesome reward, and then go back and kill everything for the XP, right? Isn't this kind of "fun" precisely what Sawyer wants to end?

I think Josh made a mistake by emphasizing this when explaining his reasoning for removing kill XP. It's easy to explain, but it comes across to people as stingy.

The primary motivation behind removal of kill XP is so that the player doesn't feel like he didn't "complete" an area if he didn't genocide every last monster in every last corner of every last cave.

It's a positive incentive, not a negative one.

 

[Athelas]

There is no difference between those two explanations: both are examples of player behavior being driven by the meta-incentive of XP.

Something I've noticed is that some people tend to confuse between "games with lots of combat" and "combat games". Not the same thing.

Blackguards is a combat RPG. Baldur's Gate and Pillars of Eternity are RPGs that happen to have lots of combat. I do not want to be "scored" for combat in an IE game, wtf.

I don't see much difference. If a game has lots of combat (that isn't optional/easy to avoid) it is functionally a 'combat game'.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see the difference. If a game has lots of combat (that isn't optional) it is functionally a 'combat game'.

I don't agree with this, but I'm not sure right now how to explain it.

Let's say, it's a matter of how the game frames itself. Baldur's Gate has lots of combat in it, but all the mechanics are there for a non-combat experience. You can imagine that there's some area of the game with no combat at all, where you just walk around and talk to people, and that would be a completely standard gameplay experience. There's lots of combat, but that combat is still "framed" as just one of many activities in a more fully simulated world.

 

[Goat Vomit]

I'm not aware of which DLC thing you are referring to, so take this for what it is worth - Paradox has asked for NOTHING with regards to PoE. PoE has been Obsidian all the way. Pinky swear. Paradox has done things for PoE that needed to be done, but nothing was asked for in return. This DLC thing, I honestly have no information on.

I should tell some more stories... the problem is that I do better when I am "playing off of someone else". Like in response to questions or other comments. Telling stories cold is difficult for me.

Oh, so Paradox are really cool guys? I guess they've just picked their business associates very unwisely in the past, I mean just look at magicka or their long history of cancelled projects. I just assumed it was their idea since they always nickel and dime their own games to death. I'm really happy about your decision to sell it on GOG tho, it will be nice to be able to play an Obsidian game without having to launch steam or have a limited number of activations like in the case of Alpha Protocol.

As for stories, if you're not working on PoE then are you working on the tank MMO or a pathfinder thingy? Also, you wouldn't happen to know if MCA is very shy about his body?

Anthony Davis
Even though I hate unity and find the pre-order DLC thingy that Paradox no doubt forced you to make distasteful

The pre-order DLCs are just the Kickstarter backer-exclusive perks. Divinity has 'em too: http://store.steampowered.com/app/306320/

Not very exclusive then, are they? I hate pre-order incentives nonetheless, I know this isn't an huge issue but it's an pet peeve of mine. The stupid space piglet probably isn't cute anyway.

 

[Kane]

If PoE is good there is nothing to fear. Instead of bitching on the Codex, Obsidian Entertainment needs to make the Codex their bitch.

You know i was asking for this, don't you.

Your next quest:

 

[Sam Ecorners]

ITT: adavis day drinking.

 

[Sensuki]

Anthony Davis

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.ph..._filters[forums][searchInKey]=&userMode=title

https://www.youtube.com/user/Enverxis/videos

and I have about 100 unlisted youtube videos with bug reports, issues and exploits among other things.

Infinitron disagrees with me on a few gameplay and mechanics issues, and seems to take insult from it or something. I speak my mind, I don't have anything against Obsidian and I always try and provide constructive feedback. I have to disagree with you on the combat gameplay. I replay the Infinity Engine games every year. I don't cheese the game with mages or exploits, and I don't think that the Pillars of Eternity combat is that fun or tactical and it doesn't feel like Infinity Engine combat other than the camera and controls (the way you select and command your characters, and select abilities). That is an opinion formed from 125 hours of testing the beta. I don't have time to say why at the moment (that is if you are interested) because I have to go to work, but if you are feel free to reply and I'll post about it later.

edit: and I'm not the only one - there are a lot of users here and on the Obsidian forums that agree with me to some extent or another.

There has been one recent hot debate topic (started by me) on the Melee Engagement system. I advocated it's removal from the game, and as a result stirred up a lot of shit both here and on the Obs boards.

edit 2: I also hold a different opinion to you on the combat feel. While the 'fake attacks' in the Infinity Engine attack animation system were a bit silly, I found the implementation of that system to be really fun and well done. I prefer BioWare's version with the fake attacks, because of the pulsing animation that gives clear visual feedback when a character is waiting to attack, but has been issued a command. This was removed in Icewind Dale, and thus the visual combat feedback was made worse. I never found the fake attacks confusing because I used To Hit Rolls, so I always knew which attack was real or not. There is a BG2 mod that removes the fake attacks (TobEx), while keeping the pulsing animation - and it's perfect. Both the IWD1 and IWD2 implementations were not.

I have repeatedly asked for the combat idle animation to be moved to recovery time only, or a new animation/stance be created for recovery time, so that if one wishes to disable the annoying combat HUD, they actually get visual feedback as to whether their issued command fired or not, however this request has been unfortunately ignored so far by the PE team.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

Btw, still don't feel bad about throwing few hundred at Obsidian

 

[Infinitron]

Anthony Davis

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.ph..._filters[forums][searchInKey]=&userMode=title

https://www.youtube.com/user/Enverxis/videos

and I have about 100 unlisted youtube videos with bug reports, issues and exploits among other things.

Infinitron disagrees with me on a few gameplay and mechanics issues, and seems to take insult from it or something. I speak my mind, I don't have anything against Obsidian and I always try and provide constructive feedback. I have to disagree with you on the combat gameplay. I replay the Infinity Engine games every year. I don't cheese the game with mages or exploits, and I don't think that the Pillars of Eternity combat is that fun or tactical and it doesn't feel like Infinity Engine combat other than the camera and controls (the way you select and command your characters, and select abilities). That is an opinion fromed from 125 hours of testing the beta. I don't have time to say why at the moment (that is if you are interested) because I have to go to work, but if you are feel free to reply and I'll post about it later.

Hey, congrats on getting a new job.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't see the difference. If a game has lots of combat (that isn't optional) it is functionally a 'combat game'.

I don't agree with this, but I'm not sure right now how to explain it.

Let's say, it's a matter of how the game frames itself. Baldur's Gate has lots of combat in it, but all the mechanics are there for a non-combat experience. You can imagine that there's some area of the game with no combat at all, where you just walk around and talk to people, and that would be a completely standard gameplay experience. There's lots of combat, but that combat is still "framed" as just one of many activities in a more fully simulated world.

Basically, is there a reason to play a game other than combat? If no, then it's a combat game. If yes, then it's not. Best example is PST.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I'm not aware of which DLC thing you are referring to, so take this for what it is worth - Paradox has asked for NOTHING with regards to PoE. PoE has been Obsidian all the way. Pinky swear. Paradox has done things for PoE that needed to be done, but nothing was asked for in return. This DLC thing, I honestly have no information on.

I should tell some more stories... the problem is that I do better when I am "playing off of someone else". Like in response to questions or other comments. Telling stories cold is difficult for me.

Oh, so Paradox are really cool guys? I guess they've just picked their business associates very unwisely in the past. I just assumed it was their idea since they always nickel and dime their own games to death. I'm really happy about your decision to sell it on GOG tho.

As for stories, if you're not working on PoE then are you working on the tank MMO or a pathfinder thingy? Also, you wouldn't happen to know if MCA is very shy about his body?

Anthony Davis
Even though I hate unity and find the pre-order DLC thingy that Paradox no doubt forced you to make distasteful

The pre-order DLCs are just the Kickstarter backer-exclusive perks. Divinity has 'em too: http://store.steampowered.com/app/306320/

Not very exclusive then, are they? I hate pre-order incentives nonetheless, I know this isn't an huge issue but it's an pet peeve of mine. The stupid space piglet probably isn't cute anyway.

The Paradox people I have met have all seemed pretty awesome - not in the fakey awesome way that some publisher people might be, but more in the authentic you found and killed Kangaxx too back in the day? They could also just be really good actors though.

I'm working on the tank MMO.


I'm not sure I can answer the MCA question since you have now admitted to me that you hate space pigs.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony Davis

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.ph..._filters[forums][searchInKey]=&userMode=title

https://www.youtube.com/user/Enverxis/videos

and I have about 100 unlisted youtube videos with bug reports, issues and exploits among other things.

Infinitron disagrees with me on a few gameplay and mechanics issues, and seems to take insult from it or something. I speak my mind, I don't have anything against Obsidian and I always try and provide constructive feedback. I have to disagree with you on the combat gameplay. I replay the Infinity Engine games every year. I don't cheese the game with mages or exploits, and I don't think that the Pillars of Eternity combat is that fun or tactical and it doesn't feel like Infinity Engine combat other than the camera and controls (the way you select and command your characters, and select abilities). That is an opinion formed from 125 hours of testing the beta. I don't have time to say why at the moment (that is if you are interested) because I have to go to work, but if you are feel free to reply and I'll post about it later.

edit: and I'm not the only one - there are a lot of users here and on the Obsidian forums that agree with me to some extent or another.

There has been one recent hot debate topic (started by me) on the Melee Engagement system. I advocated it's removal from the game, and as a result stirred up a lot of shit both here and on the Obs boards.

I have a meeting to goto right now, but I shall return.


Not being on the team though, I'm not sure what I can do, but I would love to talk.

 

[Abu Antar]

There has been lots of good negative critic pointed out about some of the things Pillars of Eternity does. But I do agree that there have been several posts that shits on the game without going very deep.

Here are my main concerns about the game:
-No usage of spells, etc, outside of combat and no pre-combat buffing means that I will maybe use one buff or two, but mostly just cast spells that do damage.
-Combat is way too fast. Everything needs to be slowed down by 20% or something like that.
-Melee engagement system is very easy to abuse. Yes, there were systems in the IE games that you could abuse but the melee engagement system in Pillars of Eternity takes it to another level as has been shown by Sensuki and his videos.
-Combat readability needs to be better. Some battles still reach NWN2 levels of "I don't know what the hell is going on" territory.
-One thing that won't make it into the game are things like death spells, flesh to stone or similar spells. I still think that's a letdown.
-Some classes are really fun to play while others feel a bit uninspired.
-The whole DT and Deflection systems are not very optimized and it means that one will usually use the same weapons for most characters. Lots of weapons feel useless.

There are probably a few more things that I have issues with that have to do with UI and inventory, but I won't lit them right now.

 

[Sensuki]

Anthony Davis

feel free to send me a PM.

 

[Zed]

Obsidian office, Monday morning

"Hey guys. I tried some diplomacy with RPG Codex and I actually got some nice feedback from it"
"Oh yeah? Cool let's hear it"
"Yeah, so this guy Sensuki-"
*room implodes in a massive groan*

 

[Lhynn]

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

But you could still skip combat, get the awesome reward, and then go back and kill everything for the XP, right? Isn't this kind of "fun" precisely what Sawyer wants to end?

Im mostly talking about scripted interactions here, but maybe they moved on after that? maybe they left? maybe they are still there? what kept you from killing the khans in new vegas after you were done doing their quests?
They already made a game where killing stuff for exp was not necesary.

I have to add, xp distribution does matter in the context of this game, because it dictates in a way how the game is played.

They could have gone down a route where XP is not the end all be all of the group possibilities. Sometimes paths with less XP can yield different rewards, items, npcs, events, etc. That make skipping combat, not only a viable option but a desirable one depending on the character you are currently playing. Instead attaching the exact same XP value no matter what you do? Lazy and nonsensical.

If I ever get to meet the designers of Deus Ex, I'll be sure to let them know their work was lazy and nonsensical.

It wasnt for its context

Spoiler

Its a different game, objective based rewards in that game made sense, because the game itself was objetive driven. Because your character didnt need to be a combat character, and because every time the character improved didnt necesarily meant that fighting just got easier.

That's not a bad idea - but I do think it would require a lot more content than they already have and thus more work. Remember the game is already ~60 hours if you do everything.

Yeah, i can only hope PoE2 or whatever the next RPG you guys will bring out will go down that route, nothing better than a game that opens doors based on your choices.

Getting invited to a thieving organization because you didnt slaughter your way into the royal chamber. Never hearing about it if you did. Stuff like that is more powerful than mere XP. Going back and making trouble on the royal palace could get you banned or even black listed in said organization, it could bring interesting interactions in the future.
Youve done stuff like this in the past, AP would be the prime example for this.

I do think the previous analogy of BG1 is the most correct one I've heard so far.
PoE is no more linear than BG1 or BG2 - at least for the parts I have seen.

Progression feels more forced and controlled on PoE, this i do not like. And this is a product of you getting XP on checkpoints or for filling out a list.

I'm not sure what you know about the story and the world so far, what was boring to you? How much of the world and story do you know?

Read everything thats on the wiki about Eoras, there are few interesting conflicts (the exception to this is the saints war, i would have loved to be there, maybe even on that brige) , few notable characters, etc. Youd think in a world where everyone can have battle super powers stuff is bound to happen on a daily basis. But nope, a bunch of organization and states doing what they are suposed to be doing.