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Game News Avadon: The Black Fortress is Out

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
I'm too early in the game to tell but there are hints of important decisions you'll be making. Choices will probably be there, don't know yet about the consequences - Brother None?

As to the different builds - nope, the builds aren't varied enough. However you'll be swapping your party members often. Sticking to a single party composition all the way seems to be a bad idea.
 

Jim Cojones

Prophet
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
2,103
Location
Przenajswietsza Rzeczpospolita
Brother None said:
For almost all of the game: nope. In fact, the character system is structured to discourage you from using skills, since they eat up endurance, which doesn't regenerate, while health does. I'll dive into that in my review. It's the biggest screw-up of several screw-ups really.
I'm very surprised that her hasn't decided to make meat, fruits etc. regenerate characters' endurance. Instead they work just like they used to in previous games, giving you very little boost to HPs. In result they are useless in combat because you get less health from them than you lose in a single blow and even more useless outside because you get to full health quickly after combat ends.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Azrael the cat said:
Can you tell me what the freedom/C+C is like in the full game?
This was posted in the other thread:

"Looking through the hintbook accessible really seems to be what he went for, wonder if it will get him more customers.

"Also, don’t worry too much about making a mistake. You can retrain your characters by visiting Trainer Leala in the Beraza Woods."

"For most of the game, Avadon has a very linear storyline. You will return to Avadon, receive a mission, and then go complete it."

The last time I actually had to think about marketing was studying it as an undergrad many many years ago, but you're in marketing (from what I gather) - would the principle still be that this is a pretty dumb move? I.e. that if you're an indie going up against much wealthier competitors, you're best off going for an avoidance strategy by taking a niche that the big guys can't/won't cater to, rather than going for the mass market where you're always going to be the 'less shiny'' cousin?
I'm in a different kind of marketing (increasing sales, making people who like or are shopping for a certain product buy product A instead of nearly identical product B, etc), so I can't offer you my professional opinion, but it does appear to be a dumb move.

Instead of increasing the quality of the product that kept him in business and offering what very few developers do these days (factions and c&c), he launches a new product that doesn't offer enough to either audience.
 
Self-Ejected

Davaris

Self-Ejected
Developer
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
6,547
Location
Idiocracy
I can't get over how great the art is in his games these days. It must have cost a ton of ca$$$h.
 

youhomofo

Augur
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
142
I have the full game and I can tell you it doesn't improve substantially over the demo. At least not through the second area, which was as much as I could stomach.

I've witnessed no ramifications as a result of the decisions I've made--and there have been precious few of those. Dialog options all result in the same conclusion. Here's an example that really pissed me off:

Okay, so I'm an agent of Avadon. A feared, enormously powerful force that has bent much of the known world to its will. I am charged with traveling through one of the few lands not actively controlled by Avadon, and I am told to take no shit from the locals.

Right off the bat a group of tribal warriors gives me some guff about Avadon and its ruling style. I have a "nice" dialog option. Something to the effect of agreement. I have a not-so-nice dialog option. "Fuck you guys, bow to our might!" So I choose the latter. And I get a smarmy response that transitions into the exact same conversation I would have had with the nice response. No chance to kick their asses. No chance to force them to recognize my authority. No sense of decision making. Vogel wrote a linear story containing the illusion of choices and nothing more.

Maybe the game improves later on. Maybe I'll get to make some decisions that have an impact on the world. I'll never know because the start, the absolute most important part of any game, is so mind-numbingly dull and linear. It's a shame.

Oh, and combat? Idiotically easy. Even if it does get tough there's really no strategy involved. Positioning doesn't matter. Skills and abilities might make a slight difference, but not a substantial one. You just hack at everything in your path. Most enemies fall easily. The few that don't require reloads and lucky rolls, not clever tactics.
 

visions

Arcane
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
1,801
Location
here
Monocause said:
And - as with almost all JV games - don't play on normal, choose hard or torment.

A bit off topic but do you think that Torment is a good difficulty for a first real playthrough of his other games in general? So far I've only messed around with the demos, and not too far since I wouldn't want to "spoil" them too much before a real playthrough, but I haven't felt like getting tied up with a real playthrough so far, since I've been tied up with other things.
 

korenzel

Educated
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
278
If you want challenge, look for a hidden switch in the dragon library at the end of the demo. If you can survive the salamanders and their 50+ (100+ in torment) damage area of effect fire breath, there will be even stronger things for you to fight.

I'm not far enough in the game to have seen some C&C but it's pretty obvious there's at least a lawful and corrupt path.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
visions said:
A bit off topic but do you think that Torment is a good difficulty for a first real playthrough of his other games in general? So far I've only messed around with the demos, and not too far since I wouldn't want to "spoil" them too much before a real playthrough, but I haven't felt like getting tied up with a real playthrough so far, since I've been tied up with other things.

Play for a while to get a grasp of the system, then start again on either hard or torment. You can switch the difficulty mid-game so if torment's too much then you can always drop to hard.

Avoid torment in Avernum 5-6 - leads to piles of frustration with gazillion-HP enemies, pick hard instead. Avoid Avernum 4 altogether.
 

youhomofo

Augur
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
142
I played on Torment and I did not find it particularly challenging. The salamander area was a bit tough. I could take one, maybe two salamanders on at a time. I did eventually leave that area to level up a bit.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
visions said:
Monocause said:
And - as with almost all JV games - don't play on normal, choose hard or torment.

A bit off topic but do you think that Torment is a good difficulty for a first real playthrough of his other games in general? So far I've only messed around with the demos, and not too far since I wouldn't want to "spoil" them too much before a real playthrough, but I haven't felt like getting tied up with a real playthrough so far, since I've been tied up with other things.

For a first playthrough on the Geneforge games, start slightly easier (with Avernum feel free to crank up the difficulty if you like). It's difficult to advise on the Geneforge games - you can win it on hardest difficulty reasonably enough, but there are areas (paths within zones on the early games, entire zones in the latter games) that are very difficult for some builds and very easy for others, so even on easy difficulties there'll be brick walls that you'll hit. But there's always some other way around that will suit a different build (e.g. some areas/NPCs might be so big on mechanical traps that even on an easier difficulty you just won't get through without good mechanics, others might lead to huge ambushes if you have crap leadership, others will require a decent combat party).

So you can certainly start on Torment and go through, but an easier difficulty will give some easy fights (lots of easy fights earlier) but will also give plenty of difficult areas if you push into places that your build isn't suited for.

But the main reason why I'm hesitant to recommend Torment as a starting difficulty for the Geneforge games is that in all but the last of them, you'll encounter a chain of choices that require you to trade off permanent stat buffs / spells/ skills against some pretty major consequences. Consequences of a kind that will lead to some factions shunning you even if you side with them (they might use you to get their way, without trusting you enough to let you live afterwards), and will also force your hand in a number of ways during the course of the game, sometimes giving some unique consequences but often leading to consequences for the worse (if you're aiming to be a 'good guy', or siding with the more peaceful or the more traditionalist groups). However, the game is designed so that it is supposed to be difficult to very difficult (varies depending on which game) to win if you completely abstain from the perma-buffs, and extremely difficult to win all fights and access all areas/things without making judicious use of the perma-buffs.

Consequently the right difficulty level is sort of important - you want it to be at a level where you have a real incentive to take the perma-buffs, or it will trivialise that aspect of the game. So I would say go on one of the harder difficulties, I'm just not sure that Torment is necessarily the right one for a beginner. The 'average' fight is not indicative of the game's tougher fights, and the difficulty will increase greatly once you get about halfway through most of the Geneforge games. They are really long games as well, so it isn't one where you want to have to restart. I'd say take maybe one difficulty down from torment, and if that turns out to be too easy then bump it up for the next one.
 

visions

Arcane
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
1,801
Location
here
Thanks for the replies (especially Azrael for being very informative as usual). Hard seems reasonable then, I guess.
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
461
Iirc all the higher difficulties do is give the enemies more damage dies and HP ? I don't really see much reason to drag the trash combats out even more so go with normal for now. As said you can change anytime anyway.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Monocause said:
I'm too early in the game to tell but there are hints of important decisions you'll be making. Choices will probably be there, don't know yet about the consequences - Brother None?

I've been testing it out but it doesn't seem so. Many dialog options don't really matter. A lot of it is hand-waved away as "you're a Hand, you can do as you like", or blatantly ignored.

There's a lot of choices that impact the end narration to a greater or lesser extent, but otherwise...

The one exception I'm fairly certain on but didn't experiment with enough is the loyalty missions. I think your companions will likely flee or turn on you if you make choices they disagree with near the end, but I had fulfilled all their loyalty missions so they trusted my judgement.

Well, throughout the game one side tries to tempt you away from loyalty to Avadon. My character constantly rebuked them and even kicked the shit out of the dude when he kept bothering me. Yet there it was, right at the end, the option to side with him anyway. It seems to be, again, Biowarean, the classic "you can change your mind at the last minute" kind of choice. But (endgame spoilers)...

What I don't know and would like to see answered (but probably won't have the time to experiment with myself): the Wayfarer died in that final confrontation no matter what I did. Redbeard would kill him if I didn't. Yet I could then turn on Redbeard, that option seems freely available. But I do wonder if my choices are what caused the Wayfarer to die.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Ah, I was wondering about that too. I did make impeccable choices from Avadon's perspective, while simultaneously keeping my companions loyal, and got about the best "Avadon-sided" ending, including becoming that position you mention.

I left the dragon and demon alive though. World = fucked. Lololol.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Really don't like his new character system he put in place. It just feels so dumbed down when you compare it to what he has in his Avernum games. The guy should by now realise that it's rpg gamers that like his games and that fiddling with lots of stats, classes, skills, traits and the like is what they like.

The fact that most of the items do not have descriptions also bothers me more than I would've thought.

I am however enjoying the story of the game. Or more precisely, the setting. It's interesting enough to keep me going back to it. I do like some originality in my gaming every once in awhile.

I do loathe the worldmap. A single large continent shaped like a rough circle does not an interesting map make. Dunno why it bothers me the way it does but it does.

Combat is meh. Then again, Spiderweb combat has always been meh. Not descriptive enough, not enough options, not enough things going on. It's all rather lame and tame. Apart from the occasional set-piece battle that is. I like those. None ever come close to the battle with the general who's OD'ing on speed potions in Avernum 2(?) though. Just fight a guy who has an insane amount of action points and his entire entourage and when you kill him get some cool description about his speed tearing him apart. Hard as hell and totally cool. Vogel never got it that right again, though he occasionally gets close.

All in all I think I'll give it a playthrough. I'm a sucker for settings.
 

Al3xand3r

Novice
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
27
I like it so far. It's different to Geneforge and Avernum and after 5 of the former and 6 of the latter I can't blame the guy. I doubt most people here criticising the "dumbing down" and concerning themselves more with his marketing and if he can or can't attract a more mainstream audience or whatever else than the actual game have bought all his previous titles which weren't so. Anyway, my first impression from the demo:

I'm getting the hang of it, I levelled up once and saw how the core stuff works. The game is quickly drawing me in and I can already see the sinister potential the story holds under the introductory fluff I have to go through. It might not look it, but it's been a joy to play after I got over the initial annoyances and disappointment with certain details. I like the glimpses of the setting and characters that I've seen and I don't mind not creating my party for the 100th time, they seem to start at level 1 anyway so I can evolve them as I see fit. If they're well integrated in the story is all that will matter to me and I've seen glimpses that hint this is the case as well. It's too early to say much more than that. So far I'm happy with it. If that will change in the future, if it never grows to be what it has the potential to be, remains to be seen. But if I don't like it by the end it will probably have little to do with the "dumbing down" and be all about how the setting, story, choices and challenge will be handled from now on. You know, the important bits.
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Anyway, he'll probably make another series that will be more in line with the mechanics of his previous titles as well (if not continue themselves), for those who don't like this one. So the guy tried some different things after 17 years, running around screaming betrayalton is a little short sighted. Vote with your money or offer constructive criticism (based on your own experience rather than what you read on teh internets), anything else should be beneath any self respecting CRPGer. In the end you either like it, hate it and wait for something that works for you, or like parts of it and suggest how to improve the rest.
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
visions said:
Monocause said:
And - as with almost all JV games - don't play on normal, choose hard or torment.

A bit off topic but do you think that Torment is a good difficulty for a first real playthrough of his other games in general? So far I've only messed around with the demos, and not too far since I wouldn't want to "spoil" them too much before a real playthrough, but I haven't felt like getting tied up with a real playthrough so far, since I've been tied up with other things.

In addition to what Azrael said about the Geneforge games, one thing to keep in mind is that Vogel rebalanced them with each new iteration. So in the first 1-2, a shaper who invests in intelligence, magic skills, magic shaping, and endurance and basically acts as a walking vlish factory is very powerful, and there's no reason to invest in missile weapons or dexterity (you'll spend most of your turns buffing or replacing fallen creations). In later games, vlish are toned down a bit, though they're always a decent investment. Starting with Geneforge 3 or 4, your skill with missile weapons influences the success of certain items like crystals and not just the thorn batons, making it a much more useful investment (since it basically means that as long as you're well-stocked - which isn't very difficult - you can cast spells for 3 AP instead of 5 AP and save essence for emergencies and more creations.)

Likewise, some of the melee skills were also overpowered in 1 and guardians got majorly nerfed for a game or two afterwards before making a comeback. And I never played an agent in Geneforge 1, but in 2-4 they are extremely powerful (keep yourself constantly buffed, stack damage-over-time spells on powerful enemies, and use your area spells/melee prowess to take out weaker ones), only to end up being one of the worst classes in 5. Serviles aren't that great in 4, but one of the most powerful builds in 5 is a servile. Battle creations are traditionally weak throughout the series but get a boost in the last one or two, whereas magic creations are traditionally strong and decline a bit in the end. And so on. I enjoy it, TBH; it encourages the player to try out different builds instead of sticking with what he knows.

Anyway, the point is that depending on the build you're playing, switching from hard to torment may be the difference between a cakewalk and some real challenges or between being challenging and being just plain frustrating, and even familiarity with the games won't necessarily help you make a good character due to the constant rebalancing. So I pretty much agree with Azrael: stick to the hard difficulties but play it by ear with regard to how hard.

Edit: The one thing that remains consistent throughout the series is that there's almost never any reason to invest any more essence into your creations than what's needed to give them 2 points of intelligence so that you can control them in combat. I have yet to find a case where my essence was better spent boosting my existing creations rather than making more. Even if you keep some creations around for the long haul (which is how I tended to play), they gain points at a higher rate through leveling than you can ever give them by investing more essence. Plus, more creations means that you're getting more out of your buffs.
 

Pope Amole

Educated
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
138
Vogel is trolling codex atm, btw, by the grace of this very same thread.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/05/avadon-out-for-windows-responding-to.html

Not a smart choice, in my opinion. Yeah, it's easy to describe us as a bunch of mad pirating haters and stick up with his sycophantish fandom that apparently thinks that Vogel is immaculate as Pope, but the truth is, he's a hardcore niche market dealer and by catering to the casual, he automatically alienated part of his customers, so what was he expecting? Pity that he is not man enough to admit that he just wants more money through the higher audience and goes for the usual shitty "pirates are killing PC market!"
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
It's really revolting to see a streamlined RPG being so heavily criticized by a community that hates streamlined RPGs.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,730
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Oh, brother...

Look, let me settle this bit of dinky, overblown elitism here and now. IF you're a longtime Spiderweb customer, you KNOW that Jeff Vogel makes great games, period. If you let a demo, which by nature is NEVER going to be representative of the FULL version of a game nor it's overall quality (strengths and weaknesses included) "disappoint" you at this stage of life... dude, it's time for a new hobby.

Of course, if the demo is awesome, then it's perfectly fine to expect it to be representative of the full game
 

Achilles

Arcane
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
3,425
He is right in part though. Legitimate complaints can be hard to spot among the "omg played five minutes game sucks" and "I'll wait for the TPB release :smug:" posts.

I do have one message for him though, since he's reading this thread: not everyone is like that, Jeff. You should be smart enough to disregard the idiotic comments and focus on the ones that can give you actual, valuable feedback on your product.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
20,872
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Game is piss easy compared to Geneforge where poor Guardian at levels 20+ died a lot on casual and cheat codes. Although quite linear can't see the reasons for KKKodex hate as it is far more RPG than AAA titles like Skyrim or Ass Effect we have 300+ pages threads about. Setting was cool too.
 

Deuce Traveler

2012 Newfag
Patron
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
2,920
Location
Stuttgart, Germany
Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
I can't speak for others, but to me Avadon is a mediocre RPG. It's not bad, but it's not great either and overall it's a step down from Vogel's previous work and a sign that he is moving towards a more mainstream audience and leaving his Indie fans behind. Vogel experimented with some fun ideas when he got started such as Nethergate (Celtic mythos) and the Exile series (setting in an alien underground). Geneforge was his most unique endeavor, showcasing his wonderful imagination to the fullest.

Then came his reworking of the Exile series through Avernum and I felt his changes to the gameplay were for the worse. Now here comes Avadon, and although it has a lot of good ideas, the setting seems generic and the characters seem to have been influenced by Bioware's writing with their teen angst-ridden dialogues. Vogel is making much more money now that he has gone in this direction, but he has wasted his talents and genius on a generic medieval setting and horrible characters in his new Avadon game.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
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Messages
34,350
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
generic medieval setting

Stop calling generic fantasy medieval.

Proper medieval setting would fucking rock. European or even eastern European medieval setting (early Rus, Vikings, Baltic tribes, Holy Roman Empire, Byzantines...) with monsters inspired by European Pagan and Medieval Christian myth would be fucking awesome and anything but generic. Also with proper medieval societies and political landscape.
 

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