Interview Avellone, Ziets, Sawyer, Vincke and Kurvitz on the future of RPGs at Kotaku UK and PC Gamer

[Iskramor]

Stop feeding the troll people.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Other guys maybe, but I wouldn't call Robert Kurwa exactly a celebrity rpg designer.

 

[MRY]

Where did I ever say otherwise? I specifically said that high fantasy monster-slaying has always predominated, but that its predominance has increased, rather than decreased, over the years. I'm not sure how that's wrong.

I disagree that it has increased, it's the same basically

From the mid-80s to the early 90s, Origin Systems developed Auto Duel, 2400 A.D., Space Rogue, Savage Empire, and Martian Dreams. SSI developed two Buck Rogers, Roadwar 2000, Star Command, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, two Dark Sun games, and two Ravenloft games, and Alien Logic. What are the major developers you're thinking of today that are exploring that variety of settings?

Almost all of your example were minor games comparable to the likes of Underrail, NEO Scavengers, Expedition: Conquistador, Invisible, Inc., Wasteland 2, the current Shadowrun games, Serpent in the Staglands, Legends of Eisenwald, Dustbowl, Unrest, Dead State...

All of my examples were developed by one of the premier RPG American developers of the era, not by indie or low-cost studios working on a shoestring. The games comparable to the ones you list would be things like The Return of Heracles or Hard Nova.

I'm really not sure how you could possibly be persuaded. I identified a huge number of eccentric games from the earliest stages of the cRPG industry; I identified several that were successful enough to receive sequels; I identified at least one that was a runaway success (Starflight); I identified a dozen that were developed by the leading developers in the genre at the time. Incidentally, we could do the same thing with Westwood (e.g., Roadwar 2000, Mars Saga, Battletech, Circuit's Edge), Origin Systems (e.g., Autoduel, Moebius, 2400 A.D., Space Rogue, Bad Blood, Savage Empire, Martian Dreams), and probably with Electronic Arts (e.g., Escape from Hell).

The point I challenged in the interview was the claim that early RPGs were all generic Tolkienesque monster-slaying games tightly tied to P&P design, and that only after cRPGs "grew up" over the intervening decades did developers become more experimental. There's no "both sides are right" here -- that claim is simply incorrect. At this point you're arguing a different point, which is nothing has changed for the worse because indie or lower-cost studios make a small number of games almost as strange as those mainstream developers were releasing en masse in the 1980s and early 1990s.

If at this point we both agree that there was a beautiful diversity of strange RPGs in the 1980s and early 1990s, that major developers have by and large stopped making such games, and that this change is driven by the "maturity" of the industry, then there's really nothing left to disagree about, and you're welcome to label me wrong on some peripheral issue -- I'd rather have agreement on the main thrust of my point and abandon skirmishing on the margins.

 

[Shadenuat]

If only there were indeed some Tolkienesque games.

Since most modern fantasy has nothing common with Tolkien at all.

 

[MRY]

If only there were indeed some Tolkienesque games.

Since most modern fantasy has nothing common with Tolkien at all.

Yeah, that's something I wrote about in my most recent FG update. I take "Tolkienesque" now to mean noble elves, underground-kingdom-building dwarves, marauding hordes of orcs or obvious analogs of them, a main quest that involves gathering a band with tokens from each of various squabbling noble races, an ancient evil foe, magical swords, and wizards. It's like taxidermy of Tolkien made be someone who never saw it in the wild, but as a short-hand for a certain type of fantasy, it's not bad.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Can't help but notice the irony of Josh "complaining", or just noting it with concern, that he has been working on IE-style games for almost half of his career as a game designer, when he was the one who pitched the Pillars Kickstarter to Feargus. And to boot, now all of a sudden "high fantasy is cliche, no one wants to work on it, no one wants to write a Tolkien fanfic".

 

[vonAchdorf]

Ziets recalls that early computer RPGs like Wizardry and the original Bard’s Tale essentially ported the most popular editions of their tabletop progenitors like Dungeons and Dragons to the personal computer, eschewing epic tales of sword and sorcery to focus on the tactical guts of the pen-and-paper experience. “Originally, most RPGs were Tolkienesque, monster-slaying fantasies,” Ziets says. “Now we have RPGs set in science-fiction worlds, modern times, etc. Similarly, most early RPGs had some version of D&D stats and skills, but many are now evolving away from strict adherence to those rules.”​

Maybe that was a good thing, because that's what computers (and developers and averagely gifted writers) do best and "grandiose world-building" and "immersive stories" rarely even manage to reach the level of dime novels.

 

[Infinitron]

And to boot, now all of a sudden "high fantasy is cliche, no one wants to work on it, no one wants to write a Tolkien fanfic".

It was Robert Kurvitz who said this.

 

[KK1001]

Interview smells of Cult of Progress.

 

[Shadenuat]

Fantasy was always in a position of a genre which was not concidered "serious". I think some fantasy authors even wrote under fictitious names because of that.

I think Le Guin even trolled some writers for that (or maybe she only trolled Norton for using male pen name, I don't remember).

 

[Neanderthal]

Tolkien was ripping off the Sigurdrsaga, and he did it masterfully. It's all in the implementation, the most ancient ideas and adventures can be made enthralling if approached correctly.
Case in point: I am utterly unmoved by Star Wars, and yet Kreia's crusade was really interesting to me.
Seek new angles, love what you craft and explore the lesser paths and you'll find something interesting. Approach it as a tired old routine and it'll be just that.

 

[Trashos]

I haven't played Underail much (my eyes couldn't take it last time I tried, unfortunately), but I can see its Oddities system being the answer to the "killing everyone is always the optimal solution" problem. So it's possibly serious innovation, if it catches on.

Obsidian also tried something different with XP gain in PoE, but I didn't like what they did. I much prefer Underrail's suggestion.

 

[AwesomeButton]

And to boot, now all of a sudden "high fantasy is cliche, no one wants to work on it, no one wants to write a Tolkien fanfic".

It was Robert Kurvitz who said this.

Yes, but it doesn't sound like something Josh would disagree with in spirit.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Tolkien was ripping off the Sigurdrsaga

Sigurdrsaga

Are you kidding me? Tolkien's work was heavy influenced by Holy Bible, some critics (yeah there was critics of his books) called his work "Fan fiction on Bible", ofc his works was not so symbolic as his closest friend C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia" (Aslan was a fucking Jesus Christ reference), but only blind person would ignore that elves resembles to angels, history of Tolkien's world started almost the same as Old Testimony. Sigurd Saga completly different and all Norse legends refer elves as ugly fuckers, who kidnap kids and afraid of steel and iron.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I haven't played Underail much (my eyes couldn't take it last time I tried, unfortunately), but I can see its Oddities system being the answer to the "killing everyone is always the optimal solution" problem. So it's possibly serious innovation, if it catches on.

You should try again. It is worth it. The problem with this system is at time passes youl receive more and more oddities you don't need for killing certain types of enemy, including enemies you are forced to fight over and over again because they respawn on the map.

 

[Brancaleone]

Putting the Furries guy next to actual RPG devs

He was propelled to such heights by the furious asslicking of the Prime Junta's of the world, 100% earned of you ask me. Plus he's sassy and shit, so what are you complaining about?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Putting the Furries guy next to actual RPG devs

He was propelled to such heights by the furious asslicking of the Prime Junta's of the world, 100% earned of you ask me. Plus he's sassy and shit, so what are you complaining about?

Maxie's just salty b/c he got banned from their discord for casual racism.

 

[Brancaleone]

Putting the Furries guy next to actual RPG devs

He was propelled to such heights by the furious asslicking of the Prime Junta's of the world, 100% earned of you ask me. Plus he's sassy and shit, so what are you complaining about?

Maxie's just salty b/c he got banned from their discord for casual racism.

And he'd be right to, skill should be rewarded, not punished.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I feel that Underail's biggest innovation was forcing you to travel with walking speed. This way they were able to make a 40 hour RPG that actually has 3 hours of content in it that isn't copypasted or repetition.

Hey ho.

 

[Neanderthal]

Tolkien was ripping off the Sigurdrsaga

Sigurdrsaga

Are you kidding me? Tolkien's work was heavy influenced by Holy Bible, some critics (yeah there was critics of his books) called his work "Fan fiction on Bible", ofc his works was not so symbolic as his closest friend C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia" (Aslan was a fucking Jesus Christ reference), but only blind person would ignore that elves resembles to angels, history of Tolkien's world started almost the same as Old Testimony. Sigurd Saga completly different and all Norse legends refer elves as ugly fuckers, who kidnap kids and afraid of steel and iron.

You're thinking of C S Lewis, him and Tolkien were in the same literary club. Lios Alfar are described as fair beyond comparison and favoured of the Vanir, Svart Alfar are the ugly ones.

 

[MRY]

Tolkien was ripping off the Sigurdrsaga

Sigurdrsaga

Are you kidding me? Tolkien's work was heavy influenced by Holy Bible, some critics (yeah there was critics of his books) called his work "Fan fiction on Bible", ofc his works was not so symbolic as his closest friend C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia" (Aslan was a fucking Jesus Christ reference), but only blind person would ignore that elves resembles to angels, history of Tolkien's world started almost the same as Old Testimony. Sigurd Saga completly different and all Norse legends refer elves as ugly fuckers, who kidnap kids and afraid of steel and iron.

You're thinking of C S Lewis, him and Tolkien were in the same literary club. Lios Alfar are described as fair beyond comparison and favoured of the Vanir, Svart Alfar are the ugly ones.

Tolkien obviously drew lots of material from the Norse sagas, but the notion that it was a mere pastiche of Norse material is wrong. Tolkien hybridized a lot of material from different sources, and added his own spin on them. Tolkien's elves, dwarves, and wizards are very different from the elves, dwarfs, and wizards of the sagas -- they draw on Celtic material as well as Norse material, and in the case of the dwarves, added philosemitic Old Testament aspects onto the antisemitic "greedy merchants and goldsmiths" motif to create something totally new. There's nothing like Gondor in the sagas; even the pseudo-historical elements in the Prose Edda that trace the "Aesir" to "Asia" don't have anything like Gondor -- which makes sense, as the Norse wouldn't have any such stone-built city to fantasize about. (Side note: I read a fascinating proposition that Odin's Valhalla, with its "540 doors" and endless brawling, may have been a folk memory of some visitors who had seen the Colosseum or some other similar Roman arena.) The struggle between Sauron and the forces of light is very little like Ragnarok, the Eye of Sauron doesn't seem to have any analog, orcs aren't really like dark-elves or giants, there's nothing really like the rangers, even the concept of a band of diverse heroes is largely absent from the sagas, usually stories focus on one or two heroes, and where there are bands, they're usually kinship groups. Gandalf has Odin-like qualities (the hat, obviously, the riddling, the wandering, the runes) but once you hit LOTR, he's much less Odin-like -- the fickleness and playfulness are gone even from Gandalf the Gray, IMO -- and starts to have Christian angelic/saintly qualities (being a Maiar, not surprising). (For instance, can you imagine even Njal saying something like "Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."). To analogize Saruman to Loki would be a considerable stretch; he may be a defector from the wizard-gods and he has a trickster's tongue, but his motivations are entirely different and his whole technological angle is different.

Obviously, "fan fiction on bible" is even more absurd, but I don't like when people try to trivialize Tolkien's own genius not just in researching and hybridizing, but also in outright creation.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

At this stage, would it be safe to say we're limited to one hit wonders, as far as getting the game that has it all (or makes an honest attempt)?

CD RED and Larian are perfect current examples of PC devs catering for console mass demand market after starting in the right direction.

Money > creative legacy every time, and don't see anyone but Cainarsky (maybe) disputing that.

Would someone with more knowledge than me care to add on this?

 

[Neanderthal]

Tolkien was ripping off the Sigurdrsaga

Sigurdrsaga

Are you kidding me? Tolkien's work was heavy influenced by Holy Bible, some critics (yeah there was critics of his books) called his work "Fan fiction on Bible", ofc his works was not so symbolic as his closest friend C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia" (Aslan was a fucking Jesus Christ reference), but only blind person would ignore that elves resembles to angels, history of Tolkien's world started almost the same as Old Testimony. Sigurd Saga completly different and all Norse legends refer elves as ugly fuckers, who kidnap kids and afraid of steel and iron.

You're thinking of C S Lewis, him and Tolkien were in the same literary club. Lios Alfar are described as fair beyond comparison and favoured of the Vanir, Svart Alfar are the ugly ones.

Tolkien obviously drew lots of material from the Norse sagas, but the notion that it was a mere pastiche of Norse material is wrong. Tolkien hybridized a lot of material from different sources, and added his own spin on them. Tolkien's elves, dwarves, and wizards are very different from the elves, dwarfs, and wizards of the sagas -- they draw on Celtic material as well as Norse material, and in the case of the dwarves, added philosemitic Old Testament aspects onto the antisemitic "greedy merchants and goldsmiths" motif to create something totally new. There's nothing like Gondor in the sagas; even the pseudo-historical elements in the Prose Edda that trace the "Aesir" to "Asia" don't have anything like Gondor -- which makes sense, as the Norse wouldn't have any such stone-built city to fantasize about. (Side note: I read a fascinating proposition that Odin's Valhalla, with its "540 doors" and endless brawling, may have been a folk memory of some visitors who had seen the Colosseum or some other similar Roman arena.) The struggle between Sauron and the forces of light is very little like Ragnarok, the Eye of Sauron doesn't seem to have any analog, orcs aren't really like dark-elves or giants, there's nothing really like the rangers, even the concept of a band of diverse heroes is largely absent from the sagas, usually stories focus on one or two heroes, and where there are bands, they're usually kinship groups. Gandalf has Odin-like qualities (the hat, obviously, the riddling, the wandering, the runes) but once you hit LOTR, he's much less Odin-like -- the fickleness and playfulness are gone even from Gandalf the Gray, IMO -- and starts to have Christian angelic/saintly qualities (being a Maiar, not surprising). (For instance, can you imagine even Njal saying something like "Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."). To analogize Saruman to Loki would be a considerable stretch; he may be a defector from the wizard-gods and he has a trickster's tongue, but his motivations are entirely different and his whole technological angle is different.

Obviously, "fan fiction on bible" is even more absurd, but I don't like when people try to trivialize Tolkien's own genius not just in researching and hybridizing, but also in outright creation.

I wouldn't say I'm trivialising his work, he almost single handedly brought the Northern thing back into public awareness, and more than that he wrote some cracking adventures. I just can't unseen the broken swords, rings of power, Turin and Hurin, Fafnir like Linnorms, Miklgard like city, Eorlingas, Beorn etc. Not a slight on the man, just an observance.

I will admit that his devout beliefs do inform his works, probably unconsciously.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

I wouldnt paint that Gandalf monologue as an expression of saintliness or anything angelic, nor him as a Maiar.
That devalues the expressed wisdom as a result of lifetime of experiences and knowledge, while all "wizards" sacrificed their Maiar forms and "powers" when they entered the Middle Earth and were resurrected as mortals.
Gandalf is not a Maiar walking around Middle Earth but Gandalf who use to be Maiar and isnt anymore.

I see him as a character informed by Tolkiens own hard earned wisdom and life most of all.
He is aware of his limits, doubts himself at several points in the story, he is aware of complexity of life, how hard it is to come up with right choices and how consequences can be unexpected, how rushing into things can be dangerous, he appreciates small and seemingly insignificant people, he learned that power and violence are treacherous alies, but isnt afraid of doing things that need doing. Or rather, even when he is afraid he still does them.
All of that and more is far, far more human and wise then just "saintly and angelic".

Similarly Elves arent Angels either, while creators and great powers of the world are Valars.
The God is barely mentioned and doesnt play a direct role in the whole story. There are no organized religions or systems of belief anywhere in that whole world and its history either.


The issue of course isnt that Tolkien wrote any such simplistic story, but that superficial people cant see deeper in it and love to pat themselves on the back for how smart they are.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

There's nothing like Gondor in the sagas; even the pseudo-historical elements in the Prose Edda that trace the "Aesir" to "Asia" don't have anything like Gondor -- which makes sense, as the Norse wouldn't have any such stone-built city to fantasize about. (Side note: I read a fascinating proposition that Odin's Valhalla, with its "540 doors" and endless brawling, may have been a folk memory of some visitors who had seen the Colosseum or some other similar Roman arena.)

I think you overstate your case here, although this is admittedly a side issue. Just off the top of my head, you get to see Constantinople (Miklagard, Miklagard, Miklagard!) in the Heimskringla, as well as numerous descriptions of Harald Hardrada capturing stone walled castles.

Spoiler

"There was another castle before which Harald had come with his army. This castle was both full of people and so strong, that there was no hope of breaking into it. The castle stood upon a flat hard plain. Then Harald undertook to dig a passage from a place where a stream ran in a bed so deep that it could not be seen from the castle. They threw out all the earth into the stream, to be carried away by the water. At this work they laboured day and night, and relieved each other in gangs; while the rest of the army went the whole day against the castle, where the castle people shot through their loop-holes. They shot at each other all day in this way, and at night they slept on both sides. Now when Harald perceived that his underground passage was so long that it must be within the castle walls, he ordered his people to arm themselves. It was towards daybreak that they went into the passage. When they got to the end of it they dug over their heads until they came upon stones laid in lime which was the floor of a stone hall. They broke open the floor and rose into the hall. There sat many of the castle-men eating and drinking, and not in the least expecting such uninvited wolves; for the Varings instantly attacked them sword in hand, and killed some, and those who could get away fled. The Varings pursued them; and some seized the castle gate, and opened it, so that the whole body of the army got in. The people of the castle fled; but many asked quarter from the troops, which was granted to all who surrendered. In this way Harald got possession of the place, and found an immense booty in it."

Obviously that's a more recent story, but it's pretty clear cut evidence the author of the Prose Edda had no trouble imagining large stone buildings. IIRC there are many visits to Constantinople in the Kings' Sagas. For the older stories, a huge chunk of the Volsung Saga takes place in Worms, a Roman city that would have been built mostly from stone. Any time someone in the legendary sagas goes to "the land of the Franks," you know that's a stone built setting. By the time this stuff was being written down, there would've been a steady stream of Norsemen going to and from Constantinople to serve in the Varangian Guard for centuries.

As for people claiming Tolkien "just ripped off the Volsung Saga," I would read this as a kind of truthful hyperbole (surprisingly useful phrase!) that means something more like, "Tolkien borrowed liberally from Norse sagas."