Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Tytus]

ANY D&D setting is better than Larian's Rivellon. I can take Forgotten Realms setting as a fantasy setting, but with Rivellon I can't rid of a thought that I literally play a "Clown World". It's like a Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork but inironic.
It is impossible for me to take it seriously.

True I played several games from that setting - 5 I think - and I still don't really understand what it is about.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I believe we've talked about this before. FR was originally meant to replace Dragonlance, as Jeff Grubb shared in 30 Years of Adventure: A Celebration of Dungeons & Dragons:

In 1986, there was concern about Dragonlance fading (yeah, it sounds silly now, but it was a concern at the time), and we were looking for the "next world" to replace it. I did not know Ed personally at the time but I did know that he wrapped his articles for THE DRAGON in descriptions of his home campaign. I suggested to my boss, Michael Dobson, that we check into whether Ed had more background for that world. I made the initial contact with Ed, and for my troubles I became the in-house half of the team.

Last time you cited this quote as being from Steve Winter, a minor presence at TSR who wasn't mentioned in the credits of the Forgotten Realms box set of 1987. Regardless of the exact source of the quote, it was apparently made two decades after the fact and the source is misremembering the circumstances. Dragonlance had been created as an epic Tolkienesque series of 12 adventure modules (and 2 other modules) starting in 1984 with the last few being published in 1986, as well as an associated trilogy of novels that proved a tremendous commercial success. Aside from the original 14 module series, not a single Dragonlance gaming product had been published even by the end of 1986. TSR never gave Dragonlance a chance to serve as the "main" AD&D campaign setting, instead choosing in 1986 to create a new campaign setting, based on the personal campaign of frequent Dragon Magazine contributor Ed Greenwood. More importantly, neither Dragonlance nor the Forgotten Realms would have had the opportunity to become, in Jeff Grubb's words, the new "home base” of the AD&D game universe" if Greyhawk had continued to fill that role. After Gygax's ouster from TSR, the new leadership cancelled all planned Greyhawk gaming products. It wasn't until 1988 that the Greyhawk line resumed, and even then the first product was the silly, satirical WG7 Castle Greyhawk adventure module that included none-too-subtle swipes at Gygax. The Forgotten Realms was created to fill the void left by the abeyance of the Greyhawk setting and to provide a permanent replacement for it.

Dragonlance? With their fake paladins their stupid wizard rules (lol let us copy FF1 magic classes ).

Final Fantasy was released in Japan in 1987 and eventually made it to the United States in 1990, six years after the publication of the first Dragonlance modules and novels. But thanks for pointing out another possible "borrowing" of D&D/AD&D material in the original Final Fantasy; the inspiration for the colors white, black, and red to differentiate the three "mage" classes may well have been Dragonlance.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Goodluck convincing people that think D&D is the greatest creation ever invented by mankind of this

That is unlikely to happen, of course. And I'm sure that even though anything of substance isn't yet available, BG3 will cater to the mentally destitute masses - meaning that it will be a worse game than the originals. With a little luck we may at least be spared the political shoehorning of including faggots and worse however. But I digress. What I wanted to say was the following, which I didn't get myself, until I played the original D&D:

The D&D rules are deeply unrealistic if you go by the standards of what is assumed today, which means mid to high level play, double to triple digit HP, etc.

HOWEVER.

If played as originally concieved, with a competent GM, I'd say that the rules are abstract but realistic. Meaning that for most of the time, you will be level 1. "Everyone" is level 1 and have about 1d6 HP. Few survive long enough to reach level 2, and even fewer exist beyond that. Usually, someone with three hit dice or more is considered heroic, as are opponents! Veteran troops who've seen too much of war already would be level 2. Someone on on a forum I frequented had, by the spells he casted in the books, concluded that Gandalf was no more than level 5! Going from the First Blood appearance alone, I'd speculate that Rambo is below that, maybe level 3 or 4, considering his long combat experience. This is of course the reason that most humanoid monsters are classless, single hit die types (id est a typical specimen of that kind). Being level 1 isn't bad, it's average!

Let that sink in a little, ...and then consider the terror of going up against the lowly ogre, which has 4 HD and dish out 3-8 points of damage per hit. And to make things worse, he is usually not alone, since they tend to congregate in small packs of only 1-8 individuals! A vampire is a supernatural horror, typically of 8 HD, which cannot be harmed with mundane weapons such as axes, flintlocks or the mighty .223 BOZAR, and still regenerates 3 HP per turn if injured somehow. Good luck. Dark Souls is for nu-male hipsters.

The armour system (AC) is also worth mentioning. In an average unarmoured swordfight between two humans, each opponent has 50% of scoring a hit which in turn has a 50% of being lethal (assuming 1D6 damage and HP, respectively - zero HP means no longer combat effective / dead).
Wearing padded or "leather" armour sets your Armour Class to 7, mail to 5 and plate to 3. Meaning that the chance of remaining unscathed, per turn (which might be up to a minute long), is increased to 60%, 70%, or 80%. It all sounds reasonable to me.

Now, the inflation of level and HD is there from the beggining (when Gygax & Co. went out of the picture?), more or less. The early Forgotten Realms have level 10 town mayors for example, which is crazy and very lazy when taking the above into consideration. Good GM's can do other things when important NPC's gets murdered by the PC's. Consequences!

So, what does all of this come down to?

1.) The original D&D system is vastly superior the the latter versions and inherently much more realistic, as there should be no HP bloat to talk about, if the GM is competent.

2.) HP bloat, being of low level is bad, missing is "bad design" - all of that stems from the assumption that D&D is for mid to high level play, when it wasn't originally.

3.) Would a low level CRPG campaign with D&D rules be fun and relatively tactical? Yes! For the average nu-male hipster C"RPG" gamer who is unable to comprehend basic probability and expects to win despite of sucking? Not so much.

4.) Would the above campaign be as good in computer format as PnP? Unlikely. Much of the enjoyment comes from the GM's skill at describing things, at least to me. First person shooting / fighting and these rules isn't ideal. Isometric would be the way to go.


TLDR; If they go the first or third person over shoulder routes they should probably alter the ruleset or do something else altogether. Isometric route? Please keep it, even if the PnP experience with these rules is superior.

what you describe above is pretty much exactly how my first DM ran our D&D games back when I first played in 1981 or 1982. He was not quite that strict, but close.

he was also like 18 and me and my friends like 11 and 12 so he laid down the law and we did not argue. but the games were tense and fun, and when you found a +1 dagger you really felt like you had found an amazing item. Most of our characters died at 1st level and had to be re-rolled and a new one picked up in town or whatever...making level 2 was awesome.

Also he made us roll our stats one at a time in order (4d6 remove lowest one) and then we chose what class based on whatever stats came from those rolls. So if you were lucky enough to roll high enough to get to be a paladin or something it was a joyous event in and of itself and could really help out the party.

 

[Cael]

The Forgotten Realms was intended to be the default AD&D campaign setting from its creation in 1986-7. This was a replacement for the Greyhawk campaign setting, based on Gary Gygax's personal campaign, which had been serving as the quasi-default AD&D setting due to the publication of an abbreviated gazetteer in 1980 followed by a detailed box set in 1983, as well as various adventure modules being loosely connected to the setting.

I believe we've talked about this before. FR was originally meant to replace Dragonlance, as Jeff Grubb shared in 30 Years of Adventure: A Celebration of Dungeons & Dragons:

In 1986, there was concern about Dragonlance fading (yeah, it sounds silly now, but it was a concern at the time), and we were looking for the "next world" to replace it. I did not know Ed personally at the time but I did know that he wrapped his articles for THE DRAGON in descriptions of his home campaign. I suggested to my boss, Michael Dobson, that we check into whether Ed had more background for that world. I made the initial contact with Ed, and for my troubles I became the in-house half of the team.

It is funny how I was introduced to FR long before I was to Dragonlance. I had always thought Dragonlance was later than FR.

 

[Dodo1610]

ANY D&D setting is better than Larian's Rivellon. I can take Forgotten Realms setting as a fantasy setting, but with Rivellon I can't rid of a thought that I literally play a "Clown World". It's like a Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork but unironic.
It is impossible for me to take it seriously.

Rivellon isn't a setting since it has zero internal consistency. Swen changes parts of the lore and backstory with every new game he releases. Like turning Elves from tree hugging people to literal tree-people.

 

[Viata]

Final Fantasy was released in Japan in 1987 and eventually made it to the United States in 1990, six years after the publication of the first Dragonlance modules and novels. But thanks for pointing out another possible "borrowing" of D&D/AD&D material in the original Final Fantasy; the inspiration for the colors white, black, and red to differentiate the three "mage" classes may well have been Dragonlance.

Here:

Akitoshi Kawazu also worked with the battle system and has said he wanted to make it as close to Dungeons & Dragons role playing game as he could. There were certain precepts to a Dungeons & Dragons type of environment, such as zombies always being weak against fire, or monsters made of fire being weak against ice, and up until that point, Japanese RPGs were ignoring these kinds of relationships. Kawazu found this irritating and wanted to incorporate those precepts of western RPGs into Final Fantasy.[4] The majority of the game's bestiary is taken from the first edition of Dungeons & Dragons, including the Mindflayer and the Ochu. The original magic system is inspired by Dungeons & Dragons as well, with a "Vancian" spells-per-day system, and with many spells and their effects, and even "spell levels", mapping directly to counterparts in the Dungeons & Dragons spell list.

Also, a softly "fuck you, Sawyer":

Kawazu feels that the fun in an RPG begins by creating a character, and didn't feel the need to have a suggested party at the beginning. Kawazu wanted players to have an option to be all Black Mages or all Warriors if they wanted. In those days it was customary not to think too deeply on these things, and the imbalance a free party creation could have was never really thought of; the idea was to let people figure things out for themselves

 

[Stella Brando]

 

[Space Satan]

The thing I loved about Baldur's Gate and Arcanum and hated about Wasteland 2 and PoI is that you can create your party. This is disgusting, it utterly kills any immersion in the setting, when you are not talking or dealing with the world as a character but as some hivemind WALKING TEMPLATES. It is not a Bhaalspawn trying to deal with genie problem, it is NPC#12372917A initiating talk with the genie then NPC#9237861C talking with the sheriff etc.
RPG should have ONE main character and companions, not a team aof walking mannequins

 

[Dodo1610]

Final Fantasy was released in Japan in 1987 and eventually made it to the United States in 1990, six years after the publication of the first Dragonlance modules and novels. But thanks for pointing out another possible "borrowing" of D&D/AD&D material in the original Final Fantasy; the inspiration for the colors white, black, and red to differentiate the three "mage" classes may well have been Dragonlance.

Here:

Akitoshi Kawazu also worked with the battle system and has said he wanted to make it as close to Dungeons & Dragons role playing game as he could. There were certain precepts to a Dungeons & Dragons type of environment, such as zombies always being weak against fire, or monsters made of fire being weak against ice, and up until that point, Japanese RPGs were ignoring these kinds of relationships. Kawazu found this irritating and wanted to incorporate those precepts of western RPGs into Final Fantasy.[4] The majority of the game's bestiary is taken from the first edition of Dungeons & Dragons, including the Mindflayer and the Ochu. The original magic system is inspired by Dungeons & Dragons as well, with a "Vancian" spells-per-day system, and with many spells and their effects, and even "spell levels", mapping directly to counterparts in the Dungeons & Dragons spell list.

Also, a softly "fuck you, Sawyer":

Kawazu feels that the fun in an RPG begins by creating a character, and didn't feel the need to have a suggested party at the beginning. Kawazu wanted players to have an option to be all Black Mages or all Warriors if they wanted. In those days it was customary not to think too deeply on these things, and the imbalance a free party creation could have was never really thought of; the idea was to let people figure things out for themselves

So FF started because he thought RPGs weren't deep enough?

 

[Space Satan]

Fucking Minsc alone had more personality than all those Pillars and Wasteland walking templates. And companion interaction was one of the best thing inherited from BG by modern games.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

The thing I loved about Baldur's Gate and Arcanum and hated about Wasteland 2 and PoI is that you can create your party. This is disgusting, it utterly kills any immersions in the setting, when you are not talking or dealing with the world as a character but as some hivemind WALKING TEMPLATES. It is not a Bhaalspawn trying to deal with genie problem, it is NPC#12372917A initiating talk with the genie then NPC#9237861C talking with the sheriff etc.
RPG should have ONE main character and companions, not a team aof walking mannequins

*Remembers how weak companions was in Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pillars of Eternity*
*remembers how boring personal quests was*
*shudders*
No. Just no. Considered how devs nowadays love to create "set in stone" systems and setting "with apex predators and dangerous enviroments" and then create characters that completely unfit in this system, perspective to stuck with bunch of useless loosers amidst sea of monsters doesn't bring smile on my face. I mean, I love well written characters, but most devs nowadays want to create "quirky romance character" instead of capable companion.
In Arcanum some companions at least had decent stats, what I cannot say about other games.

 

[LESS T_T]

Our Savior of RPG Lord Swen allowed us to know little bit more about the sacred and secret role-playing game named Baldur's Gate 3 through the mouth of German disciple GameStar.de. But only those who privileged enough (paid subscribers) can observe it in its full glory...

No gameplay at Gamescom. When the first gameplay reveal happens, it will be about combat system. Likely no isometric camera.

Google Translate:
https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/bal...eplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html

Baldur's Gate 3: First gameplay at Gamescom? Larian reveals plans
When's the first gameplay of Baldur's Gate 3 to see? Developer Larian Studios has talked with GameStar about its plans for the Reveal of Battle System & Co.

To illustrate an article about Baldur's Gate 3 is not so easy - because gameplay from the RPG is missing. Screenshots are only available in the render trailer and videos with a first look at camera perspective, combat system and the city of Baldur's Gate in modern 3D graphics are still a vision of the future. But how long? That's what GameStar wanted to know in a big Baldur's Gate 3 interview from Swen Vincke, founder of developer Larian Studios.

"Here's the sensational news for you: We'll be showing gameplay on Baldur's Gate 3 - before the next E3, 2020. [...] Probably not at Gamescom, but we have something else planned."

What a joker! But Vincke gives a concrete hint: Larian Studios will present no moving scenes from Baldur's Gate 3 at Gamescom in Cologne in August . Many had expected a gameplay reveal at the German video game fair, there are in Germany especially many fans of classic party role-playing games.

If Baldur's Gate 3 was to be present in a first gameplay trailer of the world in 2019, it will presumably show the combat system for the first time. Because that is already a much discussed topic in the BG3 fan base. The question is: lap fights or real-time battles in Baldur's Gate 3, what would be better?

For Swen Vincke, whose team earned a lot of praise for the turn-based combat system in Divinity: Original Sin 2 , the question of the combat system is not something he wants to put to the vote, even though Baldur's Gate 3 is a kind of beta test or early-access before release Phase should go through .

We're going to introduce it [in a video] and say, "We'll do it." We're not going to change it, whether the bouts are turn-based or in real-time with a break or we're making a racing game out of Baldur's Gate 3. It's always going to be Giving someone who disagrees, for whatever reason, that's why it's so important to be able to show the fights: That's what they look like, that's how they play themselves, and then we do the same. "

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/baldurs-gate-3-preview-early-access-kamera,3345543.html

What makes Baldur's Gate 3 different than its predecessors - Larian on combat system, early access, camera angle
At E3, Larian boss Swen Vincke got new details about Baldur's Gate 3. A talk about role-playing 100+ hours, the mystery of mind-shakers, and the classes and races of Dungeons & Dragons.

What's the matter?

• In an interview at the E3 in 2019, Swear Vincke of Larian Studios revealed new details about Baldur's Gate 3.
• Fan criticism and feedback from the community are important to Larian - but central gameplay elements such as the combat system should not be changed.
• Baldur's Gate 3 is about as extensive as Divinity: Original Sin with a length of 60-100 hours. But the replay value should be much higher.
• The main story revolves around the illithids from the teaser trailer, but you'll also visit the city of Baldur's Gate before the Tentacle invasion.
• For the first time, the camera angle of Baldur's Gate 3 could not be classically isometric.

"Oh, dear, that guy again!"

You have to credit Swen Vincke with not rolling his eyes when a GameStar editor enters the hotel room on the 12th floor of the JW Marriott next to the Los Angeles Convention Center, armed with voice recorder and notebook.

Maybe the Larian boss goes through the head of the sentence above, but Vincke is of course much too polite to show. And even if not: I would fully understand, I would have long been annoyed by my unrelenting questions about Baldur's Gate 3 in his position .

Is Baldur's Gate 3 turn-based or does it have real-time combat? Are the Mindbreakers (Illithids) the main villains in the story? Will we see Minsc (and his hamster boo) again? How many classes and races from Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition are available for character creation?

Vincke does not want to answer everything, but shows always patiently and gives specific information on the season of Baldur's Gate 3. He gushes about the streaming possibilities on Google Stadia, wants lively exchanges with the community and talk shop with the present Mike Mearls of Wizards of The Coast on detailed questions of the Pen & Paper rules. And then Vincke still teases that the camera perspective of the party role-playing game Baldur's Gate 3 might surprise some players ...

Baldur's Gate 3: User feedback thanks to Early Access
"We are very pleased with the reactions," Swen Vincke confides to me when I ask him about his state of mind on 6 June 2019. Baldur's Gate 3 was announced on Google's Stadia Connect event that day . »I believe the trailer was ranked 27th in the worldwide YouTube trends. People are happy to work on it. "

Now that everyone knows (thanks to a premature leak to Baldur's Gate 3 ), the discussion can be deepened. Elemental for it was the feedback of the fans. "The players will have a lot of influence on the game again, as was the case with Divinity: Original Sin and his successor." This happens on the one hand through direct exchanges at Reddit and in forums: "Once we have Baldur's gameplay videos Show Gate 3, we will get a lot of opinions from the community. "

[....subscriber only content below]

 

[abnaxus]

Minsc needs a bigger sword.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Minsc needs a bigger sword.

That's what she said.

Zep--

 

[vortex]

For the first time, the camera angle of Baldur's Gate 3 could not be classically isometric.

What does this mean ?

Dragon Age camera?

 

[Shrimp]

If Minsc was released in a 2019 game people would complain about forced randumb humour.

 

[Thonius]

Quest? Your character will probably be a Chosem One (TM) that is for some reason immune to Mind Flayer's magic/psychic attacks and will be able to extend that immunity on the party.

Forgotten Realms: Mind Flayer Commander

There is also a horribly unused mechanic in RP games in general: the concept of losing levels while progressing through the story. Again - Elder Brain - your Illithind are losing psionic power (and thus levels), and you have to adapt. Choose which feats to lose. Which skills to have wane.

Combat is RTwP when the lesser races are involved - who cares about a few goblins, humans, or even duergar or drow. They are meat for the slaughter. But when your Illithid are involved, switch to TB, and have the battles designed so each and every faet and skill you lose matter.



Intertwine concepts of entropy, aging, memory loss with sparkling new gameplay that will make the gameplay fans stand errect.



I'm starting to get depressed while I am typing this. It will be about THE CHOSEN ONE TM - because it's easier to do a dumb game with some smart stuff, than it is to make a smart game with some dumb stuff.

Imagine butt-hurt on steam forums if anything like this implemented. But yeah I heard you.
I would like to see something like that tied up with curses. Or mutilation for example lose hand or eye. Sacrificed party members for cure which leads to total party fall off. Get new party fight your old party. Some unusual dynamic would be really coon in RPG. Instead it's only linear growth.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/bal...eplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html

For Swen Vincke, whose team earned a lot of praise for the turn-based combat system in Divinity: Original Sin 2 , the question of the combat system is not something he wants to put to the vote, even though Baldur's Gate 3 is a kind of beta test or early-access before release Phase should go through .

Can a German person read this and tell us whether Swen is confirming a Steam Early Access release here?

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

For the first time, the camera angle of Baldur's Gate 3 could not be classically isometric.

Holy shit, does this mean that jokes about 3d person was close to truth?I have no words. I mean, even people who was joking about it admited that it was just a joke. But here we are, seriously risking witness a decline of epic proportions.

 

[Lacrymas]

For the first time, the camera angle of Baldur's Gate 3 could not be classically isometric.

What does this mean ?

Dragon Age camera?

That's not what the article says. Technically, Google translates it fine, but the meaning in German is different. It means that potentially it won't be isometric for the first time in the franchise.

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/bal...eplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html

For Swen Vincke, whose team earned a lot of praise for the turn-based combat system in Divinity: Original Sin 2 , the question of the combat system is not something he wants to put to the vote, even though Baldur's Gate 3 is a kind of beta test or early-access before release Phase should go through .

Can a German person read this and tell us whether Swen is confirming a Steam Early Access release here?

This translates to "even though Baldur's Gate 3 should go through some kind of beta test or early access". The entire sentence doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though. He doesn't want to make a poll for the combat system, even though the game should go through a beta test. What does the beta test have to do with a vote for the combat system? The German "obwohl" is more strict in its use than "even though", so yeah, it makes even less sense in German. At least to my admittedly humble German.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

And what about 5e rules of d&d? Is there a way to at least partially implement rules of party based tabletop game into 3d person action game? I don't think devs knows answer on this question either, because implementing d&d rules wasn't in their plans anyway. If I wrong in my assumptions -good, but now things look really weird.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Likely no isometric camera.

In the words of James Brown, "Told you so!"

Spoiler

 

[Viata]

It's shit, then. Damn, it was confirmed shit even before any gameplay trailer has been seen.

 

[Dodo1610]

They say that that BG3 could be the first game in the series without the isometric perspective but it's unclear where they even got that. Without reading the text behind the paywall.
I find the part where he talks about the combat system most interesting in which he says that

Egal ob die Kämpfe nun rundenbasiert werden oder in Echtzeit mit Pause ablaufen oder wir aus Baldur's Gate 3 ein Rennspiel machen: Es wird immer jemanden geben, der nicht damit einverstanden ist, aus welchen Gründen auch immer. Deshalb ist es so wichtig, die Kämpfe zeigen zu können: So sehen sie aus, so spielen sie sich. Und dann machen wir das genau so

Loose translation:
it doesn't matter whether the fights are RTWP or turn-based or make BG3 a racing game some people won't be happy. That's why it is so important to show the fights so you can see how they look, that's how they play and that's exactly how we do it.
That suggests that BG3 will not have two different combat styles but the only one which is most likely neither classical RTWP or turn-based but something different.

For the first time, the camera angle of Baldur's Gate 3 could not be classically isometric.

What does this mean ?

Dragon Age camera?

That's not what the article says. Technically, Google translates it fine, but the meaning in German is different. It means that potentially it won't be isometric for the first time in the franchise.

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/bal...eplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html

For Swen Vincke, whose team earned a lot of praise for the turn-based combat system in Divinity: Original Sin 2 , the question of the combat system is not something he wants to put to the vote, even though Baldur's Gate 3 is a kind of beta test or early-access before release Phase should go through .

Can a German person read this and tell us whether Swen is confirming a Steam Early Access release here?

This translates to "even though Baldur's Gate 3 should go through some kind of beta test or early access". The entire sentence doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though. He doesn't want to make a poll for the combat system, even though the game should go through a beta test. What does the beta test have to do with a vote for the combat system? The German "obwohl" is more strict in its use than "even though", so yeah, it makes even less sense in German. At least to my admittedly humble German.

It says that despite the fact that there will be some kind of beta test or early access the combat system is not up for debate. Again that suggest that there isn't a choice.

 

[vortex]

That's not what the article says. Technically, Google translates it fine, but the meaning in German is different. It means that potentially it won't be isometric for the first time in the franchise.

The more I get the feeling this is the mandatory of Wizards of the coast to reach wider audience.

Maybe they'll go for Dragon Age Inquisition with improved combat.

And what about 5e rules of d&d? Is there a way to at least partially implement rules of party based tabletop game into 3d person action game? I don't think devs knows answer on this question either, because implementing d&d rules wasn't in their plans anyway. If I wrong in my assumptions -good, but now things look really weird.

Probably they don't know because it's not finished yet.