Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate III retrospective series by Bob Case (MrBtongue)

[Grotesque]

I want a retrospective series playing THIS!

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47760

Achilles and the Grognard: Flight from Candlekeep

I was titled these posts “Baldur’s Gate III: Subtitle,” but their primary subject is the original Baldur’s Gate right now, so I’ve changed the title.

Achilles: It’s time to set off on our grand adventure. One day, you’ll look back on this and say “I knew Top Hat Guy back when he was just level one, nothing but a quarterstaff to his name.”

The Grognard: Speaking of which, you should probably buy some new gear. The inn behind you is a good place to start.

Achilles: It seems a little strange for an innkeep to have such a wide selection of weapons. Is there something about this “Winthrop” I should know about? I guess it’s fine, this is an RPG’s tutorial area after all. But I don’t notice any wakizashis for sale.

The Grognard: Fortunately, you can buy a scimitar, which uses the same proficiency.

Achilles: It’s good to know all that wakizashi practice won’t go to waste. This Candlekeep joint is supposed to be a library, a center of learning, isn’t it? It seems to be where they teach NPCs how to break the fourth wall. All these robed guys are telling me how to use the UI.

It should be 'anything OF that sort,' shouldn't it? I've noticed this weird sentence every time I've started a new character.


The Grognard: Tutorials in games are rarely graceful things, but they’re necessary. You don’t want to just throw new players into the deep end. Plus, it’s good to get a sense of place from Candlekeep. This is where you grew up. It should feel peaceful, tranquil.

Achilles: Things that are called “peaceful” and “tranquil” are also sometimes called “boring.” In Mass Effect 2, my ship got blown up, then I died, then I came back to life, then I rolled off the operating table straight into a firefight, all within the first twenty minutes. The most exciting thing that’s happened in this game so far is someone losing a book in a haystack. If you tried to showcase this sequence at E3, you’d put everyone to sleep.

The Grognard: Is that a bad thing? Things that wow the trade show beat in scripted presentations and things that actually make for a good game are not necessarily the same. Baldur’s Gate puts tone and mood before explosions and cutscenes. I prefer it this way, to be honest.

Achilles: I don’t hate it or anything. But couldn’t it start – what’s that thing they say, “in the middle of the action”?

The Grognard: The term you’re looking for is in medias res. And that’s a storytelling trick imported from epic poetry, where the story is being told to you. Here, you have a hand in telling it yourself. Techniques that work in the one format don’t always work as well in the other.

Achilles: When I started this section, I considered making a “killing rats in a warehouse” joke, but didn’t, because I thought it would be too on the nose. But here I am, literally killing rats in a warehouse.

Someone had fun writing these quest descriptions.


The Grognard: At least the game does it in a tongue-in-cheek way. But look – here you go. Someone’s attacked you.

Achilles: I noticed. I also noticed all the whiffing sounds. Am I correct in understanding that my character is wielding weapons in both hands, and yet still can’t hit an opponent directly in front of him?

The Grognard: You’re not making your to-hit rolls. You can set an option to show them in a dialogue box at the bottom of the screen.

Achilles: No thanks – I think that might just be depressing. There, I finally made contact. Look, I understand that my guy is just level one, but I feel a little powerless right now.

The Grognard: D&D has always asked for a bit of visual imagination from its players. What just happened was a fight to the death, between you and the mysterious hired killer sent after you – picture it in your head in whatever way is most exciting. And yes, you’re still level one. You have a very long journey ahead of you.

Achilles: The Marvel movies were a long journey, but they didn’t start with Tony Stark’s humble beginnings as an above-average wood shop student.

The Grognard: You’re shortchanging your own character here. Did you forget about your spells? You can blind people, hypnotize them, and put them to sleep, all using nothing but your mind. Remember that even a level one adventurer is supposed to be rare talent.

Achilles: When you put it like that, I can’t help but think of the larcenous potential. Remind me to steal everything that isn’t nailed down once I get out of here.

The Grognard: How very… chaotic neutral of you.

Achilles: Two different people have tried to kill me now, which makes me question Candlekeep’s security procedures. Looking at my character screen, and doing a bit of math, I calculate that I’ll reach level two after defeating about two hundred more assassins. At least this Imoen girl seems fun. She calls Gorion “puffguts,” I like that. I could use a partner in crime after talking to all those stuffy robe guys.

The Grognard: Take care of her – you’ll need her to pick locks and disarm traps.

Achilles: I think by now I’ve exhausted all the errands I can run around here – time to finally talk to Gorion and blow this popsicle stand. Hopefully he explains why so many people have been hired to kill a level one nobody.

Sarevok's helmet always reminds me of the front grill of a pickup truck.


Achilles: Or not. Didn’t see that coming – I figured Gorion would be the wise mentor figure for at least the first third of the game or so. Instead, Evil McBadguy from the opening cinematic just rolled him up like a carpet.

The Grognard: Well, the tutorial’s over, so now it IS time to throw you in the deep end.

Achilles: So I’m alone in the wilderness with a teenage girl, no adult supervision, and the guy I assume is the game’s main villain is after me. I admit, this is a living a little rougher than I’m used to. A little less direction too – the only thing in the quest log is to go to the Friendly Arm inn, and the only directions given are “north.”

The Grognard: You’ll find fewer rails in this game than the ones you usually play.

Achilles: At least I can double back and check out Gorion’s body. Maybe he dropped some good gear.

*one encounter with a wolf later*

Achilles: Good. Lord.

The Grognard: Well, at least you’re still alive.

Achilles: Barely! I have three hit points left out of eleven. A single wolf nearly killed me! Is this nightmare difficulty or something?

The Grognard: You selected “core rules” when you started the game, didn’t you? Welcome to low level D&D. Everything is dangerous. Fights are best avoided whenever possible.

Achilles: So I’m not only nearly dead, but I’m likely to be attacked if I rest in the wilderness too, aren’t I? What do I do?

The Grognard: All is not lost. You have healing potions. So does Imoen.

Achilles: Are you new to RPGs or something? Potions aren’t for drinking. They’re for saving for the next fight, all the way until the end of the game. I’ve played several Final Fantasy games and never once actually used a megalixir. Now I have to drink up after one fight with what should be a trash mob. I’ve never been more humiliated in my life. I need to find some meat shields, stat. Maybe these two will do.

Even if you don't want to recruit them, you can just ask them to join, take their gear, and boot them from the party right afterwards. They're surprisingly understanding about it.


The Grognard: You may want to learn a bit more about them before you rely on them too much.

Achilles: I see this Xzar guy has a grand total of four hit points, meaning he’s likely to get one-shotted if we come across any more wolves. And according to their character bios, one is a criminal, the other is insane, and they’re both evil-aligned.

The Grognard: Not many games introduce you to the evil party members first.

Achilles: Or at all. These guys aren’t Miranda-from-Cerberus evil, they’re evil-evil. Like, cartoonishly so. I don’t usually use the phrase “character development” in casual conversation, but the character development here seems a little thin.

The Grognard: This is early Bioware. You’re going to see some rough, unfinished versions of things they got better at with practice. And don’t worry, this game has loads of recruitable NPCs. You aren’t gonna be stuck with just these two.

Achilles: I’m keep them around for now, and hide behind them if we run into any more wolves. I mean to hotfoot it north to this Inn, and find this “Khalid and Jaheira” Gorion told me about.

A 'typical' playthrough will probably reach the Friendly Arm Inn at night. I suspect the timing was deliberate on the part of the devs.


The Grognard: Let’s take a moment to appreciate this.

Achilles: The Inn?

The Grognard: The ambiance. It’s nighttime. There are frightening, dangerous enemies out in the woods. You can hear the crickets and the owls. But here – the inn – is a place of refuge. You don’t think it’s well done?

Achilles: I think I see what you’re getting at. I admit this game does ambiance well. There were hawks screeching overhead in the woods during the daytime, I liked that part.

The Grognard: And it’s all a part of a whole! The wilderness wouldn’t feel the way it does if there wasn’t an element of real danger. Other RPGs are a power fantasy straight out of the gate. They rarely make you feel like a small part of a big world.

Achilles: We will get to the power fantasy at some point, though, right? If we run into those guys that killed Gorion in our current state, they’re gonna mince us up and sautee us with garlic.

The Grognard: There is a deliberately designed leveling curve in this game, yes. You have to be careful, though – just as you would if you were really in this situation.

Achilles: This must be that “immersion” thing I’ve heard so much about. Okay, I’m interested enough to keep playing. First I’m gonna fill out the rest of my party slots, then I’m gonna try and find out why so many people want me dead.

The Grognard: Sounds like a plan.

 

[Infinitron]

Skipping ahead: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47833

Achilles and the Grognard: Top Hat Guy Finds His Feet

Achilles: I think I’m starting to get the hang of this game.

The Grognard: Are you? How so?

Achilles: I have a full party now, and a couple +1 weapons. I’ve knocked out a few side quests – house full of spiders here, ogre with a stolen magical belt there. Even took a long trek way out to a gnoll fortress to rescue a witch for a guy with a hamster and a head wound.

The Grognard: Most people would be confused by that sentence, but it’s good to know you have Minsc and Dynaheir now.

Dynaheir is hidden down in one of these pits. If you don't pay attention to the area's opening cinematic I could see someone missing her.


Achilles: I’ve also learned a few things.

The Grognard: Such as?

Achilles: Give everyone a ranged weapon, and plenty of ammo.

The Grognard: Ranged is very useful in this game, just as it is in real life.

Achilles: Also, the sleep spell is practically an “I win” button. It’s AoE, and enemies only occasionally save against it.

The Grognard: True. But it only works on things with four hit dice or fewer, so it’ll abruptly stop being useful later in the game. What else?

Achilles: Mash quicksave every 2.7 seconds, and reload whenever anything even mildly inconvenient happens.

The Grognard: I’m… not sure I like that one as much. Didn’t you just notice the immersive quality of the game last time? I can’t imagine constant do-overs are going to strengthen the illusion.

Achilles: What’s the alternative? Just dying every time there’s a couple bad rolls?

The Grognard: Well obviously you reload a save if you die.

Achilles: I’m dying kind of a lot. Another assassin showed up right outside the Friendly Arm, he killed me. Then a pack of vampiric wolves hanging out next to the temple east of Beregost. Then that bandit guy with the fire arrow kobolds. Then something called a “Doomsayer” killed my entire party like eight times in a row.

The Grognard: Well, you shouldn’t have removed that evil idol from its ancient tomb! That’s like, staying alive 101. I told you, you have to be careful in low-level DnD.

Achilles: Taking stuff from tombs that you’re not supposed to is also dungeon diving 101. Good loot 101. I thought you said this was an outgrowth of the tabletop experience. If you ran this encounter with a live group, would you just let them party wipe for that? Scrap the whole campaign and start over?

The Grognard: No – I’d probably figure out some way for them to escape, or something. Keep the Doomsayer in my pocket as a recurring villain.

Achilles: But a computer can’t do that sort of thing. It can’t even fudge die rolls. It only knows how to be ruthless. Quicksave and quickload makes up for that.

The Grognard: I never thought of it that way, but it does make a weird sort of sense. But it’s not something you want to abuse.

Achilles: If you don’t want players to abuse something, then don’t put it in the game. The ability to have at-will, unlimited do-overs is too powerful not to abuse.

The Grognard: It’s why someday I’d like to see a real story-driven RPG with a more restrictive save system. Something more like Dark Souls, or even a roguelike.

Achilles: Your solution to every gameplay problem is to make the game meaner!

The Grognard: In a good game, mean and nice should be in balance, like Yin and Yang. Games nowadays are too nice, like having a five-course meal that’s nothing but dessert. But fine, mash quicksave if you have to. I did too, my first couple of playthroughs. How is the story?

Achilles: A little threadbare, honestly. Something or other is wrong with the iron mine down in Nashkel, and I had a weird dream that gave me cure light wounds as a special ability.

Chapter two's 'good' dream, which you get if you have a reputation higher than ten.


The Grognard: “Threadbare” isn’t the word I’d use. It may seem threadbare because it’s not constantly pestering you to advance it, but there’s a real main quest here that will reveal itself over time.

Achilles: I’m not complaining, exactly. It’s not like there’s nothing to do. It’s just that in most games I’d have some idea of what was going on by now. In this one, all I know is that a guy in a fancy helmet wants me dead for some reason. What’s more, this game’s humor is… strange.

The Grognard: You ran into Noober, didn’t you?

Noober, found on the south end of Nashkel, will force you into dialogue a total of thirty-two times. Put up with it and you'll get 400xp at the end.


Achilles: It’s not just him. The journal entries are jokey. The ‘evil’ dialogue options are jokey. It’s like having a vaudeville act as your GM.

The Grognard: Live roleplaying can be an embarassing thing to do. Humor is a way to relieve the awkwardness. I suspect that this style of comedy is another example of a habit the developers brought over from the tabletop experience. Remember what I said about early Bioware? You’re seeing what would become their in-house writing style in its rough, first-draft form.

Achilles: Yeah, but you’re saying that like it’s a compliment. Compared to what I’m used to, it comes off as amateurish.

The Grognard: Amateurs often have a certain kind of energy that you don’t see in professionals. A vitality. A healthy disregard for formula. In fact, instead of amateurs, let’s call them “enthusiasts.” Their work may fray around the edges, but it has a soul. The alternative is a safe, polished sort of game that doesn’t do anything unexpected or advance the genre. If you ask me, that’s how we got modern Bioware.

Achilles: Those are our only two choices? Safe and boring, or janky and interesting?

The Grognard: It’s not janky janky. This game was reasonably polished by the standards of its time. But it also took a lot of risks, some of which paid off and some of which didn’t. Take Minsc, for example.

Achilles: Head wound hamster guy.

Minsc is so well-known nowadays that it's easy to forgot that the 'rescue Dynaheir' quest was essentially his entire story in the first game.


The Grognard: The same. He’s a broadly drawn character; one note, two jokes, and a hammy voice actor. But he’s memorable. The first memeable RPG party member, back before we even had a word for that. Later, Bioware sold truckloads of units largely off the strength of their characters, and Minsc was one of the seeds from which all of that grew. That wouldn’t have happened under a more cautious developer.

Achilles: Well, Larian’s making Baldur’s Gate III. What would be your advice to them? “Go a little nuts?”

The Grognard: Go the right amount of nuts. The genre needs a shot in the arm, not just an update or a reskin. And the big publishers aren’t going to do it. They’re too hypnotized by the bottom line. Larian might just be that goldilocks developer we’re looking for.

Achilles: Here’s hoping. In the meantime, I’ve done enough sidequests. The time has come to go the Nashkel mines, and finally dip our toes into the main story.

 

[Infinitron]

Chapter 3: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47953

Achilles and the Grognard: Over the Hump

Achilles: This game is starting to click. We’re over the first hump.

The Grognard: “Hump”?

Achilles: Most RPGs have a hump somewhere around the ten to twenty hour mark. It varies from game to game exactly when. But it’s the point where you get to your first real town, and side quests start buzzing around like mosquitoes. You get overwhelmed, and you feel like you don’t know what you’re supposed to be doing. But then you knock out a couple quests, and then a couple more, and you get over the hump to the real game. Everything before the first hump is basically the tutorial, whether they call it that or not.

The Grognard: Where was this hump? In the game world, I mean.

Achilles: The southern end of the map. Beregost, Nashkel, that area. Once you get back to Beregost after killing whatshisname down in the mines.

The prose in the dream sequences is a bit overwrought, but they were still intriguing during my first playthrough.


The Grognard: That plot point always seemed strange to me. One guy, hiding in the bottom of mine, can “poison” the entire output of said mine. It seems like there would be a host of practical problems with that plan, doesn’t it?

Achilles: It was a little strange, but overall the story is good. It doesn’t get in the way – it’s like a detective story you gradually unravel while doing other things. Not like some RPGs where they’re constantly pestering you and pointing you towards the next thing you’re supposed to do.


The Grognard: Listen to you, defending the game while I criticize it.

Achilles: Oh, I’ve got plenty of complaints, don’t worry. But I do like how the game lets me do things at my own pace, in my own order. Like, now I’m supposed to find a bunch of bandits called the “Chill,” but all I have is a few leads that say they’re somewhere on the north side of the map. So the until I find them, I can putter around doing side quests, which is what I want to do right now anyway. I’m waiting on my second set of Ankheg armor, and maybe one more level for everyone.

The Grognard: I would say that this is a game that respects the player’s agency. That’s not always true in RPGs, or games in general.

Achilles: Plus, it’s full of cool little things. I turned a guy from a chicken back into a human. A guy dropped a “find familiar” scroll, and now I have a talking cat that can sneak around and pickpocket people. The “charm” spell is comedy gold, like I hoped. It comes with unique dialogue, and you can use it to move witnesses out of the way before you get your burgle on. I’ve put some points into Imoen’s lockpicking, and I’m systematically robbing all of the Sword Coast blind. I figure when things go missing they must just blame it on the bandits anyway.

If you're playing the enhanced edition, an assassin in Nashkel will drop a 'Find Familiar' scroll. In the original game, I believe the only way to get the spell was at character creation.


The Grognard: That particular brand of just-for-fun reactivity is something of a lost art these days. It’s also a side benefit of using a pre-established setting and ruleset – plenty of material to draw on. Are you familiar with the Forgotten Realms?

Achilles: I know the general gist of it. There’s lots of magic, every third character is a dragon, and people say “mayhaps” instead of maybe. Oh, and at some point Drizzt or Elminster will show up.

The famous Drizzt Do'Urden, seen here standing in the middle of an unsettlingly large pile of gnoll corpses.


The Grognard: As if on cue. So you like the setting?

Achilles: It’s a bit standard, but I’ve seen worse. Some of the maps are good. Some are a bit… empty? Like, I’ll spend twenty minutes trudging around yet another forest, and there’ll only be one or two actual things to do in it.

The Grognard: That much is true. If you don’t like slowly zigzagging through sparsely-populated wilderness, this game can get a bit slow. My gut says it was a pipeline issue – they probably finished the maps before they could populate them adequately, and didn’t have enough content to fill them all out before they shipped.

Achilles: Speaking of not having enough time to do things, there are timed quests! Consistently one of my least favorite things. Xzar and Montaron ditched me because I didn’t get to Nashkel fast enough. Okay, fine, no great loss, but Jaheira was complaining too. And to keep Minsc in the party I had to high-tail it to the gnoll stronghold way down in the southwest corner of the map.

The Grognard: There aren’t that many timed quests in the series, but there are some.

Achilles: There should be none. I don’t like being rushed. Top Hat Guy doesn’t do well with adventuring on a schedule. He’s more of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-top-hat sort of guy.

Ulcaster: a typical early/mid-game dungeon. Cramped enough that the party has to walk single file in parts, a practice that works better on the tabletop than the computer screen.


The Grognard: So you want a detailed, reactive, and immersive setting – but you want the important events of that setting to sit there, twiddling their thumbs, until you’re ready to address them.

Achilles: Pretty much, yeah. They couldn’t write their way around this problem somehow? These games are supposed to be fun. Stressing me out with fidgety details isn’t that.

The Grognard: The stress can create a sense of urgency that adds to the experience. Take the original Fallout – you had 150 days to find a replacement for the vault’s water purification chip, then 500 days before the Master attacks Vault 13. The whole plot was built around it, and it helped create the dark, desperate vibe of the series.

Achilles: That’s fine for Fallout. But this is a different series, with a different vibe. Plus, if you’re going to have timers, you should commit to the idea, not just throw them in randomly here and there. The ones here mess with the flow of things.

Elminster - Forgotten Realms' Gandalf-type - periodically shows up to say cryptic things.


The Grognard: That much I agree with. Timed quests are rarely done well – Fallout is an exception that proves the rule. But I wish some developer or another would explore the mechanic again. I mean, without them, what’s the incentive not to just rest after every fight?

Achilles: There isn’t one. Well, there are random attacks, but you just reload a save if you get one of those.

The Grognard: So why have resting at all, if there’s no penalty for spamming it? Why not just have health regenerate when you’re out of combat?

Achilles: Preaching to the choir over here, my friend.

The Grognard: Later on, Bioware went that route, and I can see why. But it feels like they were halfway to an interesting resource management mechanic and then just gave up.

Achilles: Thank god for that. The phrase “interesting resource management mechanic” gives me the heebie jeebies. I’ve seen enough of this game’s inventory system to know that “interesting resource management mechanics” aren’t exactly their strong suit. Not after I just spent ten minutes individually selling about a hundred silver rings at Feldepost’s Inn, or got in the habit of picking party members partly by their carry weight. Pick up one ankheg shell too many, and you have to rearrange six backpacks to make room.

The Grognard: The inventory juggling could’ve been toned down, no arguments there. But do you see the pattern that’s developing? Whenever a tabletop-inspired mechanic doesn’t quite work, your instinct is to throw it overboard, rather than to come up with an adjustment or workaround. Bioware had the same instinct, and I believe the seeds of their future problems can already be seen here.

Achilles: What’s the alternative, though? Preferably one that doesn’t involve piling more busywork on top of the player?

The Grognard: Oh, there’s a whole other tradition that exists right here in the Infinity Engine. It’s the Black Isle tradition. But there’ll be more to say about that later in the game.

 

[Carrion]

The format and the patronizing tone make the thing unreadable. The only thing that could possibly save it would be Lilura appearing as a third character and putting those two cretins in their place.

 

[Roguey]

My gut says it was a pipeline issue – they probably finished the maps before they could populate them adequately, and didn’t have enough content to fill them all out before they shipped.

Whether by accident or on purpose, they ended up with an approach quite a few people prefer.

Timed quests are rarely done well – Fallout is an exception that proves the rule. But I wish some developer or another would explore the mechanic again. I mean, without them, what’s the incentive not to just rest after every fight?

You haven't played Kingmaker yet, "Grognard"?

 

[Infinitron]

The format and the patronizing tone make the thing unreadable. The only thing that could possibly save it would be Lilura appearing as a third character and putting those two cretins in their place.

Yes, the patronizing tone is typical of the old "YouTube Smarty Man" era that MrBTongue represents. See also Extra Credits and Errant Signal. Talking about what these guys were saying used to be a moderately big deal on the Codex, but then people moved on. (It didn't help that these types were invariably on the wrong side of the culture war)

That said if you can get over it, I think the retrospective is fairly insightful so far (even if it has some blind spots like what Roguey pointed out).

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

I used to like Btounge till Gamergate rolled around and he used strawmen to vindicate his vapid faux intellectual woke opinions. I am disappointed to see that continue here. If you want "two perspectives" GET TWO PERSPECTIVES! Don't just make up two highly exagerated and fictitious personas you can't even be bothered to write accurately to show off how clever you are compared to the unwashed masses.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I want a retrospective series playing THIS!

A conman, a washed up voice actor and a porn star talking about shitty overpriced modded edition.

Wow, this actually made me sad.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Wow, that's some garbage art on those things.

"Enhanced".

They even faggotized TNO. Now he looks like he's indeed straight out of Final Fantasy.

 

[Infinitron]

Now this is just filler: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=48122

Achilles and the Grognard: Barrels and Other Sundries

Achilles: This game. Is taking. Forever.

The Grognard: That bad, huh?

Achilles: There’s just so much of it! It’s like they finished a full game, and then said “you know what, let’s throw in another sixty hours of side content.”

Firewine Ruins. Yet another mazelike, single-file dungeon.


The Grognard: 1998 was the debut year of the Great Big Honking PC Role-Playing Game, or GBHPCRPG. Baldur’s Gate came out that year, and the series taken as a whole is probably the apotheosis of the form. But Fallout 2 came out just a month earlier, and that was great, big, and honking too. At least when compared to the first in the series. All of the sudden, RPG developers realized it was feasible to make their games almost twice as long as they had been previously.

Achilles: But why? Who asked them to do that? Top Hat Guy’s soul is weary from killing his 43rd spider pull in the Cloakwood. Why couldn’t there just have been 42?

This is Larry the Kobold, who introduces you to his two older brothers, Darryl the Xvart and Darryl the Tasloi. You can get their autograph, which tradition dictates you keep in your backpack until the end of Throne of Bhaal. They're the only thing of interest in the eastern half of this map.


The Grognard: We asked them to do that. GBHPCRPGs are popular. They sell well. We keep buying them, so they keep making them. Didn’t you sink, like, seven hundred hours into Skyrim or something?

Achilles: That’s not something I’m proud of anymore. I don’t remember half of those hours, and now hearing the Whiterun theme makes me break out in hives. Didn’t you say there were normal-length classic RPGs, too?

The Grognard: There were. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, the original Deus Ex – all were relatively short by today’s standards. Baldur’s Gate, though, was the Skyrim of its time. At least in terms of the amount of content.

Achilles: I don’t know how you all did it. I looked for walkthroughs of this game, and found THIS on an actual website. It’s a walkthrough for the entire game, and the expansion, written in plaintext, about a thousand pages long, last updated in 2002.

The Grognard: Ah yes, SWCarter’s walkthrough. I know it well. It’s one of the better ones.

Achilles: Of course you do. It’s weird seeing stuff from the era before the actual internet existed. How could you stand it, alt-tabbing to that thing every ten minutes, in fear of missing the +5 Ultimate Death Sword hidden in a bale of hay? Did you no part of you get bored?

The Grognard: Yes, and we complained then, as you’re complaining now. But we still bought the games. The truth is, as a group, the shortier, artier RPGs never sold as well as the bigger, commercial ones.

Achilles: I guess it makes sense. They make movies that are way too long all the time, even though you can almost never find anyone who actually wants to sit in a movie theatre for three and a half hours. But I thought this game was supposed to be an adaptation of the tabletop experience. If an actual live GM had groups go through this many nearly identical fights against 4-8 kobolds with fire arrows, they’d have an empty table before long.

The Grognard: True. Keep in mind that in 1998, Bioware were still rookies, so to speak. In the second game you’re going to see less filler, less slapdash content, and more polish.

Achilles: So basically, Bioware GM’ed the first two games. Who’s GMing the one that’s coming out?

The Grognard: Larian Studios, best known for the Divinity series.

Achilles: And what are they like?

The Grognard: Well, the founder walks around in a full suit of plate armor.

Achilles: I have to say, that is a promising start. The fact that it’s no longer considered socially acceptable to wear full or even demi-plate in public has always been frustrating to me.

The Grognard: The studio certainly has personality. But is it the right personality? The Divinity games tended towards the tongue-in-cheek, with a sort of “ironic Disney” aesthetic. Baldur’s Gate is different. Of course there’s humor, but the games went to some pretty dark places, which you’ll see for yourself as you keep playing.

Achilles: There was some darkness in the announcement trailer, though. That flaming fist guy turned into a mind flayer, and there was all that Cthulhu-looking stuff floating in the sky.

The Grognard: Yes, but we’ve seen so little of the third game that we have to get our speculation where we can. All hope is not yet lost, however. Do you remember I mentioned another tradition, distinct from the Bioware one, last time?

Achilles: The Black Isle one?

The Grognard: That’s how I described it. Calling it that is an oversimplification, but for the sake of the explanation: a gameplay theme in the original Fallout (by Black Isle) is that every quest has multiple solutions showcasing multiple build types. You know fighter, bluffer, sneaker, that sort of thing. Each has a way they can complete the quest.

Achilles: So not like here, where it’s usually fighting, fighting, and more fighting.

The Grognard: Exactly. In Baldur’s Gate you have plenty of player freedom in the open-world sense of the term – you can go almost anywhere in the game right from the beginning. But for the most part, all it comes down to in the end is freedom in determining what order you fight things in. The things themselves are the same each time.

Achilles: And what does this have to do with Larian? Or are we still talking about that?

The Grognard: We are. By way of prologue, let me introduce you to the art of Barrelmancy.

Achilles: So let me see if I’m understanding this correctly. In the Divinity series, developed by Larian, you can put basically infinite weight into the game’s containers.

The Grognard: Correct.

Achilles: And then there’s an ability that lets you telekinetically drop those containers on enemies, killing them instantly.

The Grognard: You can one-shot anything in the game if you get your barrel heavy enough.

Achilles: Ok… I mean, that’s cool, I guess. It’d be fun to do it a few times. But it’s kind of a gimmick, isn’t it?

The Grognard: It is, but it’s a gimmick that hints at great potential. Packing a barrel full of smaller barrels and then dropping it on the bad guys using telekinesis is exactly the sort of craziness that makes for a good tabletop session. If Larian’s gameplay systems are deep enough to support that, then they may be deep enough to bring that next level of player freedom to the Baldur’s Gate series.

Achilles: The word “may” is doing a whole lot of work in that last sentence.

The Grognard: Hope and cynicism are both ways to keep yourself sane. I’m going with hope on this one.

Achilles: For the sake of balance, I’ll go with cynicism. There won’t be a Baldur’s Gate III. Not really. There’s gonna be a first entry in a series reboot, and they’re gonna to play it safe. They’ve licensed Dungeons & Dragons. They’re working with Wizards of the Coast. Everyone involved is going to want a smooth landing, and this gaggle of friendly, agreeable Belgians are going to give them one with a side of waffles[1]. And you know what? That’s a good thing! Better a solid game, that you can actually play, than some abstract-expressionist art project where you throw improbably heavy barrels at symbolic representations of your subconscious fear of change.

The Grognard: Not better! I disagree. “Playing it safe” has been an anchor around the neck of the genre for over a decade now. I don’t have a subconscious fear of change, I have a subconscious fear of stagnation. What if this game comes out, and no one even cares? What if it comes out, and it’s an 8/10 that everyone forgets about in three months? What will I have invested all this time and effort into then?

Achilles: I have to ask, does playing these old Infinity Engine games always turn into a therapy session for you?

The Grognard: More often than you’d think.

(Overlong awkward silence.)

The Grognard: So what’s next? The city itself?

Achilles: The city itself. Sixty hours in, and I’ve finally arrived at the city the game was named after.

Baldur's Gate. I hope you like side quests.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

I can't read that shit Infinitron.

 

[Cryomancer]

Is the Baldur’s Gate series as good as everyone remembers it being?

R : YES!!! An amazing in depth game with an amazing story.

Is Larian the right developer for this game?

R : NO!!! An interesting comment :

HardWarUK
1 month ago (edited)
"
With Obsidian you would get a true RPG. With Larian you get a "semi-RPG". A true RPG is just a world, and in that world you meet enemies and fight them. This could be in the countryside, a dungeon or a town, but the fight will be in the "world"and can be anywhere. With Larian you have fixed "puzzle battles" where they place items like oil barrels etc in a location then place enemies and you have to solve the puzzle as much as fight a battle. All these battles are in special pre-built areas. A true RPG just has fights in the game world, anywhere in the game world as monsters are "roving", also a fight may "move" a long distance from the original fight location, reinforcements may appear, building may catch fire, etc. This just doesn't happen in DoS. In DoS you solve the puzzle roleplay a bit and then solve another puzzle....." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKIHd_eVvPY

The unique Larian game who i loved is divine divinity. No cooldown, no puzzle battle, no gear determining your stats

Is today’s world as interested in Baldur’s Gate III as we think it is?

 

[Tigranes]

Please stop posting this incredibly bad thing

 

[Desolate Dancer]

Is the Baldur’s Gate series as good as everyone remembers it being?
Yes, in fact the best of its type. Best IE. Best d&d. Best isometric RPG. Not because its perfect, since nothing is, but its the closest thing to the concept that we'll ever going to have.

Is Larian the right developer for this game?
No, no one is, though that's a bit pessimistic. Realistically speaking, it is unlikely for anyone to replicate the success.

Is today’s world as interested in Baldur’s Gate III as we think it is?
I dare not to think about an answer to that...


I had purchased the original BG saga three times in my life (well, technically twice, the first one was a gift from my then bro-in-law). The very first one was still the 6 CD version of the original BG and it was a pain in the ass to keep switching those damn CDs in-between new areas. Amazing that today the same game can run on a smartphone.

As for Beamdog's Enhanced (Desecrated?) version: sorry, I'm unable to support Mizhena's gender(sex?)-reassignment surgery...

 

[Darth Canoli]

But what do Mind Flayers EAT?

Dwarves ...

 

[Grotesque]

Ulcaster: a typical early/mid-game dungeon. Cramped enough that the party has to walk single file in parts, a practice that works better on the tabletop than the computer screen

I actually missed the crowded dungeon layout when playing PoE and the feeling of believable functional locations some area like the mines in BG had.
In isometric RPGs nowadays, all locations are open ass wide locations made for giants that are made this way only because convenience when moving the party.

 

[Desolate Dancer]

I actually missed the crowded dungeon layout when playing PoE and the feeling of believable functional locations some area like the mines in BG had.
In isometric RPGs nowadays, all locations are open ass wide locations made for giants that are made this way only because convenience when moving the party.

They had totally fucked up proportions too, just like everything else in that "game", all interiors were much larger than the character animations and this was just as unsettling in an inn as it was in a dungeon. As always, the appalling thing was that this would have taken like half a minute: to measure and compare the proportions in an IE game and at least try to replicate it... but no, they did not have half a minute for this... they needed all the time all throughout those years to... balance.

 

[felipepepe]

The Grognard: 1998 was the debut year of the Great Big Honking PC Role-Playing Game, or GBHPCRPG. Baldur’s Gate came out that year, and the series taken as a whole is probably the apotheosis of the form. But Fallout 2 came out just a month earlier, and that was great, big, and honking too. At least when compared to the first in the series. All of the sudden, RPG developers realized it was feasible to make their games almost twice as long as they had been previously.

We asked them to do that. GBHPCRPGs are popular. They sell well. We keep buying them, so they keep making them. Didn’t you sink, like, seven hundred hours into Skyrim or something?

Achilles: That’s not something I’m proud of anymore. I don’t remember half of those hours, and now hearing the Whiterun theme makes me break out in hives. Didn’t you say there were normal-length classic RPGs, too?

The Grognard: There were. Fallout, Planescape: Torment, the original Deus Ex – all were relatively short by today’s standards. Baldur’s Gate, though, was the Skyrim of its time. At least in terms of the amount of content.

This is really bad. His "Grognard" persona apparently thinks Elder Scrolls began with Oblivion, because he clearly never played Daggerfall. Or World of Xeen. Or Ultima VII. Or Darklands. Or Wizardry VII. Or Betrayal at Krondor. Or Fate. Or Realms of Arkania. Or any Gold Box game.

This is what killed the "YouTube Smarty Man" era that infinitron mentions. These guys had some things to say about a few games/topics, but now it's clear that they ran out of things to say but their mouths are still moving. Any idiot can play a game and write a review, but you can't just as easily play a game and make an insightful essay about it. I get that, I haven't written a Gamasutra article in almost 2 years because I ran out of things to write about. I can make tweets about some stuff, but not an interesting long-form essay.

Besides, now mainstream websites also publish opinion pieces in similar fashion, but written by women and minorities, not patronizing white dudes, so they lost their relevance.

 

[Grauken]

They have been out-wokened

 

[Grauken]

Besides, now mainstream websites also publish opinion pieces in similar fashion, but written by women and minorities, not patronizing white dudes, so they lost their relevance.

That said, you should not underestimate the contingent of white dudes who are uncomfortable with the outright nazis and other crazies rampant on the codex, but likewise wary of modern woke culture, so for them the "YouTube Smarty Man" still works, and these are usually middle-aged people with a lot of disposable income, so not a bad niche to target

 

[Roguey]

In the second game you’re going to see less filler, less slapdash content, and more polish.


I don’t have a subconscious fear of change, I have a subconscious fear of stagnation.

I repeat myself, but this is not a grognard.

I actually missed the crowded dungeon layout when playing PoE and the feeling of believable functional locations some area like the mines in BG had.
In isometric RPGs nowadays, all locations are open ass wide locations made for giants that are made this way only because convenience when moving the party.

They had totally fucked up proportions too, just like everything else in that "game", all interiors were much larger than the character animations and this was just as unsettling in an inn as it was in a dungeon. As always, the appalling thing was that this would have taken like half a minute: to measure and compare the proportions in an IE game and at least try to replicate it... but no, they did not have half a minute for this... they needed all the time all throughout those years to... balance.

Why are you advocating for one of the worst features in BG? Even ignoring outside-of-combat pathfinding which they fixed by turning everyone into ghosts, it would make in-battle pathfinding excruciating just as it was in the IE games. One of Sawyer's greatest regrets was making the first dungeon in IWD too narrow because he was a newbie who didn't know better, so he made sure that would never happen again.

 

[skaraher]

I remember this guy making hours long videos to explain Elder Scrolls was dumbed down and Mass Effect 3 ending was bad. Lots of words to explain the obvious.

 

[S.torch]

That redesign of The Nameless One look awesome.

 

[Tigranes]

That redesign of The Nameless One look awesome.

Goes to show beamdog can make any kind of substandard swamp shit and somebody out there will have bad enough taste to eat it up