Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

- Land of Rain & Fog

Why would anyone want to go to Britain?

And what battlefield role Millwall brick would fill?

 

[Harthwain]

[...] The argument essentially comes down to "we are ignorant and can't tell arms and armour entire centuries and cultures apart so it doesn't matter", is this really the standard that should be aspired?

I understand where you come from, but it is what it is. Given that the game is basically [low] fantasy, they are doing a fairly good job at keeping it separated from the usual cool-but-stupid-fantasy-armor theme, so I am not going to be mad on them for not being overly strict on the front of historical accuracy as such.

It's so different from actual medieval middle-eastern arms and armour:

Spoiler

No big circular plate discs in the chest, no curved swords with curved handles.

Not much point adding that to the game, to be honest:

Spoiler

 

[FreeKaner]

I understand where you come from, but it is what it is. Given that the game is basically [low] fantasy, they are doing a fairly good job at keeping it separated from the usual cool-but-stupid-fantasy-armor theme, so I am not going to be mad on them for not being overly strict on the front of historical accuracy as such.

I thought they were doing a fine job so far too, so that is why it is so jarring they are adding something so distinctly from gunpowder era. If your definition of "overly strict on the front of historical accuracy as such", and I said this is not about historical accuracy but visual and thematic coherence, is basically not even in wholly pre-gunpowder era then I think we should add arquebuses to the game. I am being serious here too, if you add armour that was designed because of firearms then why not add firearms? I don't care about this whole historic accuracy bullshit and arquebuses are cool and were even used in the time period as rest of arms and armour in the game.

It's actually very odd how people are completely loose about adding armour that was designed to partially counter-act firearms and any counter-argument is responded to as if it is historical accuracy nitpicking but would be wholly and ardently against adding actual firearms that were contemporary with the said armour. Gunpowder is not some technological advance that requires any prior development that was had in medieval world, you could have had it in bronze age if someone figured it out. Yet the armour that was designed because of gunpowder "looks fine" to everyone even though it can only exist because of gunpowder as prior development.

 

[Harthwain]

I am being serious here too, if you add armour that was designed because of firearms then why not add firearms?

You're making a wrong argument here. They are adding grenades, which is not too far from firearms, since the technology for grenades is closely related to firearms (black powder). But the real issue - enough to prevent them from including the firearms altogether - would be how to balance them against bows and crossbows.

 

[TT1]

- Land of Rain & Fog

Why would anyone want to go to Britain?

Folk! Celtic-like stuff and creatures

 

[TT1]

After Blazing Deserts a new DLC will be released, called Rising Sun. It will introduce Samurai, Ninja, fighting monks and Drunk Kung Fu.

Roadmap:

- Rising Sun
- Deep Jungles
- Lost Empire
- Wild Tribes (introducing mounts)
- Land of Rain & Fog
- Islands
- Battle Sisters
- Battle Brothers II (now with multiplayer) exclusive EPIC Games

Ah, and of course Skull and Bones, introducing swashbuckler, pirates and Caribean setting. Now you can have a parrot.

Before they want to close this game forever. Now they will milk it forever.

 

[Reinhardt]

Where is muh caves, tonnels and skavens?

 

[Brancaleone]

First clear evidence of that kind of plate+mail armour is from half of 15th century Persian sources, plus other much earlier references (although no 100% sure). It's not something distinctively Ottoman (apart from Middle East, it had quite some success also in the Indo-Persian area). And quite a lot of the armour already in the game is of the15th century type, so it's perfectly in line with the rest.

Plated-mail itself is at earliest in second half 15th century which I think is already very late for rest of what is used in this game since the armour in the game is not 15th century at all but 12-14th century. European 15th century armour would be full plate armour which I didn't see in this game. Moreover the one he is wearing is a distinctively disc plate which doesn't exist before 16th century in that form and except in Ottoman Empire, various other forms of disc plate also exists in 16th century in Russia, Persia and India. It's a type of armour made in compromise design with appearance of gunpowder weapons in the field, comparable to European breastplates. The type of vest he is wearing is also Ottoman in appearance and so is his sword.

In fact, I would be willing to bet the artist used one of these pictures as the reference, which is late 16th century Ottoman:

Regardless, I think the theme and general aesthetic of this game is clearly and distinctly high medieval with influences from fantasy and history before with very obviously pre-gunpowder era arms and armour. So including post-gunpowder type of arms and armour breaks the coherence. It is like including 12th century crusader in mail and bucket helm side by side with a tercio pikeman in breastplate and morion helmet, very anachronistic and nonsensical, as former was meant to protect against cutting weapons and latter was made with firearms in mind.

It looks like I misremembered the century: apparently, the earliest evidence of the mirror armour is from 13th century, not 15th: so much earlier than 16th century Ottoman examples. And it has nothing to do with firearms (as if the use of plates integrated into armour ever depended on that), and a lot with representing an excellent compromise for hot climates, since you avoid getting cooked inside thanks to the mail, and you retain a certain degree of plate protection. Contrast with the Byzantine klibanion, which had roughly a similar structure, only it was sewn on leather or thick cloth, thus preventing heat dispersion and earning its name, which means "oven" (I wonder why).

But even if we're talking about 15th century, the game has already at least sallet and barbute which are only from that century on, plus all the bec de corbin / horseman's pick etc. which are from even later. So I see no problem with the inclusion of mirror armour (which is Ottoman only in its latest iterations, barring some even later Indian/Indo-Persian examples).

 

[FreeKaner]

It looks like I misremembered the century: apparently, the earliest evidence of the mirror armour is from 13th century, not 15th: so much earlier than 16th century Ottoman examples. And it has nothing to do with firearms (as if the use of plates integrated into armour ever depended on that), and a lot with representing an excellent compromise for hot climates, since you avoid getting cooked inside thanks to the mail, and you retain a certain degree of plate protection. Contrast with the Byzantine klibanion, which had roughly a similar structure, only it was sewn on leather or thick cloth, thus preventing heat dispersion and earning its name, which means "oven" (I wonder why).

But even if we're talking about 15th century, the game has already at least sallet and barbute which are only from that century on, plus all the bec de corbin / horseman's pick etc. which are from even later. So I see no problem with the inclusion of mirror armour (which is Ottoman only in its latest iterations, barring some even later Indian/Indo-Persian examples).

The type of "mirror armour" in 13th century you are referring to was Central Asian lamellar types and is not at all related to what I mean here. Also the type of mirror armour shown in the artwork is distinctly closer to later Ottoman types and it was indeed a compromise design for gunpowder. They started using lighter armour as opposed to trend before where armour was getting heavier especially towards end of 14th century and at the turn of 15th century then with proliferation of gunpowder weapons they abandoned heavier armour and started to use lighter mail with only few pieces of plate.

Besides all this talk on specifications, the DLC is advertised to be medieval middle-eastern based on Arabic and Persian cultures, but it instead is presented with later design common at the turn of 16th century. So irrespective of whether it narrowly makes the cut in time span or plausibility, it completely misses the theme of what is clearly advertised to be crusader era middle-east. Ignoring centuries of middle-eastern arms, armour and style to instead use armour from the tail-end of medieval period completely dominated by Turkic or Mongol designs is missing the point and visual style.

If the plated mail or curved cavalry sabres were the point (which I doubt), then why not theme it around Mamelukes, Timurids or whatever else? If the crusade era middle-east is supposed to be theme then why not use crusade era arms and armour. Not the 13th century lamellar mongol armour based on Chinese designs (not the one in the artwork) or 15th century mirror armour used by Mamelukes and Timurids (would be much heavier and plated than what is in artwork with overlapping shoulder plates as well) and not tail-end 16th century light mirror plate but instead actual mail hauberks mixed with robes.

I have stated from start this is not a historical accuracy nitpick but rather thematic and visual coherence based on aesthetic and style. When I see plated mail or mirror armour I don't think of Abbasid era middle-east with flourishing Baghdad and Damascus at the eve of crusader states, alongside of all the other scenery and imagery associated with so called "Islamic golden age" with governance and administration under Arabs and Persians. Instead I think of post-mongol invasion fractured middle-east with devastated cities constantly changing hands between slave-soldier dynasties and repeating waves of Central Asian invaders until all of it was conquered by Ottomans. Very clearly the aim and vision wasn't that.

Perhaps it is because of lack of familiarity to you but it is as jarring to me as having a viking themed dlc announced and the artwork shows vikings in brigandines then someone is defending how it is perfectly fine putting vikings in brigandines because Danes used them in 14th and 15th centuries. That's not what one thinks or wants to see with theme of "Vikings".

 

[Reinhardt]

Who cares what infidels wear when we slaughter them all.

 

[Murk]

Who cares what infidels wear when we slaughter them all run them out of business.

fixed

 

[Tigranes]

Who cares what infidels wear when we slaughter them all.

 

[Reinhardt]

Who cares what infidels wear when we slaughter them all.

Yeah, sorry - i should've said "BURN THEM ALL!"

 

[hivemind]

shut the fuck up, sissy white boy

 

[Reinhardt]

All your gold are belong to me!

 

[FreeKaner]

Here what an 14th-15th century armoured cavalryman from middle-east would have looked like, this one is supposedly Golden Horde but a Mameluke wouldn't have looked much different except in details:

So it is bizarre to skip not only the actual medieval Arab and Persian armour from the so called Islamic golden age during Abbasid era but also whole of heavier armour that came to be in the post-mongol era dominated by Mamelukes and Post-Mongol states like Ilkhanids and Timurids if that is what you are aiming then go straight for a lighter, gunpowder era plated mail from Ottomans. It is not fitting the advertised style and nor the aesthetics of what it is supposed to represent, completely betrays the theme and all around quite ignorant honestly.

 

[Brancaleone]

It looks like I misremembered the century: apparently, the earliest evidence of the mirror armour is from 13th century, not 15th: so much earlier than 16th century Ottoman examples. And it has nothing to do with firearms (as if the use of plates integrated into armour ever depended on that), and a lot with representing an excellent compromise for hot climates, since you avoid getting cooked inside thanks to the mail, and you retain a certain degree of plate protection. Contrast with the Byzantine klibanion, which had roughly a similar structure, only it was sewn on leather or thick cloth, thus preventing heat dispersion and earning its name, which means "oven" (I wonder why).

But even if we're talking about 15th century, the game has already at least sallet and barbute which are only from that century on, plus all the bec de corbin / horseman's pick etc. which are from even later. So I see no problem with the inclusion of mirror armour (which is Ottoman only in its latest iterations, barring some even later Indian/Indo-Persian examples).

The type of "mirror armour" in 13th century you are referring to was Central Asian lamellar types and is not at all related to what I mean here. Also the type of mirror armour shown in the artwork is distinctly closer to later Ottoman types and it was indeed a compromise design for gunpowder. They started using lighter armour as opposed to trend before where armour was getting heavier especially towards end of 14th century and at the turn of 15th century then with proliferation of gunpowder weapons they abandoned heavier armour and started to use lighter mail with only few pieces of plate.

Besides all this talk on specifications, the DLC is advertised to be medieval middle-eastern based on Arabic and Persian cultures, but it instead is presented with later design common at the turn of 16th century. So irrespective of whether it narrowly makes the cut in time span or plausibility, it completely misses the theme of what is clearly advertised to be crusader era middle-east. Ignoring centuries of middle-eastern arms, armour and style to instead use armour from the tail-end of medieval period completely dominated by Turkic or Mongol designs is missing the point and visual style.

If the plated mail or curved cavalry sabres were the point (which I doubt), then why not theme it around Mamelukes, Timurids or whatever else? If the crusade era middle-east is supposed to be theme then why not use crusade era arms and armour. Not the 13th century lamellar mongol armour based on Chinese designs (not the one in the artwork) or 15th century mirror armour used by Mamelukes and Timurids (would be much heavier and plated than what is in artwork with overlapping shoulder plates as well) and not tail-end 16th century light mirror plate but instead actual mail hauberks mixed with robes.

I have stated from start this is not a historical accuracy nitpick but rather thematic and visual coherence based on aesthetic and style. When I see plated mail or mirror armour I don't think of Abbasid era middle-east with flourishing Baghdad and Damascus at the eve of crusader states, alongside of all the other scenery and imagery associated with so called "Islamic golden age" with governance and administration under Arabs and Persians. Instead I think of post-mongol invasion fractured middle-east with devastated cities constantly changing hands between slave-soldier dynasties and repeating waves of Central Asian invaders until all of it was conquered by Ottomans. Very clearly the aim and vision wasn't that.

Perhaps it is because of lack of familiarity to you but it is as jarring to me as having a viking themed dlc announced and the artwork shows vikings in brigandines then someone is defending how it is perfectly fine putting vikings in brigandines because Danes used them in 14th and 15th centuries. That's not what one thinks or wants to see with theme of "Vikings".

No, I'm not talking at all about the "lamellar" types. Guess why in the types of armour I am referring to the mail is directly connected to the plate instead of going underneath it?
You keep kicking up a lot of dust about BB representing crusade era weapons and armour, when it includes quite a few examples from 15th century (or are you trying to claim that warhammers & co. fit thematically your supposed "crusade era"?). Same way, you got stuck with the Ottoman reference, when we are talking about a kind of armour that enjoyed popularity (in various phases and places) in all Middle-East, and even beyond that.

Just as the panoplies used up to now are a mishmash of weapons, armor and helmets ranging from roughly 11th to 15th century, the Middle-East theme is very likely to cover several centuries of warfare stuff and quite a large geographical area, and it's quite appropriate that the central spot of the artwork has an armour that fits exactly that kind of bill.

 

[Reinhardt]

Here what an 14th-15th century armoured cavalryman from middle-east would have looked like, this one is supposedly Golden Horde but a Mameluke wouldn't have looked much different except in details:

So it is bizarre to skip not only the actual medieval Arab and Persian armour from the so called Islamic golden age during Abbasid era but also whole of heavier armour that came to be in the post-mongol era dominated by Mamelukes and Post-Mongol states like Ilkhanids and Timurids if that is what you are aiming then go straight for a lighter, gunpowder era plated mail from Ottomans. It is not fitting the advertised style and nor the aesthetics of what it is supposed to represent, completely betrays the theme and all around quite ignorant honestly.

No one said they are from exact same timeline as their analogs from our history. In this world southerners have city-states instead of caliphate.

 

[Modron]

No reinhardt it's clearly a betrayal of history everyone knows heavily armored marmalukes drove the goblins, orcs and lindwurms out.

 

[FreeKaner]

No, I'm not talking at all about the "lamellar" types. Guess why in the types of armour I am referring to the mail is directly connected to the plate instead of going underneath it?
You keep kicking up a lot of dust about BB representing crusade era weapons and armour, when it includes quite a few examples from 15th century (or are you trying to claim that warhammers & co. fit thematically your supposed "crusade era"?). Same way, you got stuck with the Ottoman reference, when we are talking about a kind of armour that enjoyed popularity (in various phases and places) in all Middle-East, and even beyond that.

Just as the panoplies used up to now are a mishmash of weapons, armor and helmets ranging from roughly 11th to 15th century, the Middle-East theme is very likely to cover several centuries of warfare stuff and quite a large geographical area, and it's quite appropriate that the central spot of the artwork has an armour that fits exactly that kind of bill.

Look, I want the DLC to introduce types of armour covering ground from various types of middle-eastern periods, my issue is that it shows armour from tail-end of medieval period in a design from gunpowder era. If they are going to show more plain mail and robes, or the heavier lamellar and mail that is appropriate for high medieval post-mongol middle-east as well, I am completely fine with it.

I am supposedly nitpicking here but I am getting responded with "actually it fits the whole of middle-eastern theme because it was present in what is essentially closing years of medieval middle-eastern period brought with central asian invaders!". Answer me this, do you think of Ilkhanids and Timurids when someone says "Medieval Middle-east based on Arab and Persian cultures in the scorching deserts!" or would you rightfully consider it to be based on Islamic golden age Umayyads and Abbasids perhaps even Al-Andalus?

This argument is basically "arr rook the same" tier with foundation in complete ignorance, feigned or otherwise. It is disingenuous to claim that it is just loosely general middle-eastern style when it is not, it is a very specific and narrow style from a period that is not what people would think of when talking about "medieval Islamic world" or "medieval Arab world".

Here is what actual thematically representative armour would look like:

If you want to include a broader Middle-eastern style including the post-mongol Ilkhanid, Timurid and Mameluke visuals then include them too but also don't pretend Turkic and Mongol influence is what people are thinking of when the 1001 nights aesthetic of medieval middle-east is invoked. That would look partly like what I posted above of that heavy Golden Horde cavalryman but also these:

There are quite few types and variance here to be source for several types of in-game arms and armour different from just mail in the game. Including scale and lamellar types as well as much later plated-mail. Importantly also various types of swords aside from "lmao CURVED. SWORDS!"

However as I said above, this latter is not the theme of Arabian and Persian influenced medieval middle-east and you know it, it is not the 1001 nights, it is not the "islamic golden age" and it is not the crusades. The second of all, even if we were aiming for wider middle-east including the post-mongol era which is completely unfamiliar to most audiences there is so much more to include before skipping directly into 16th century Ottoman-type light plated mail with small circular plates with Ottoman style vest on top. Including heavy plated mails that would be different from the mail in the game like I posted before of the Golden Horde cavalryman.

There is just no reason to do this, except pure ignorance and a lack trying to even explore the vast variety of arms and armour from this era. It is not just the devs of this game though as I won't blame them solely but all types of media that allegedly takes its themes from medieval middle-east will use anything but medieval middle-east obsessing over extremely narrow types of most superficially obvious curved swords and late Ottoman, Mameluke and Mughal armour as that was what was most readily available to display to European audiences in 19th century which carried over all the way today.

It's disappointing. Especially when I see one game I thought would deep diver than what every other game is doing when they are doing "middle-east" that is "Allegedly medieval Arabs in the desert except with post-mongol weapons and armour" because this game has variety of European arms and armour from wider medieval period. All the excuse for this lack of creativity and depth is "it is not a history game!!!" as if that is an excuse for being so shallow. If it is not a historical game and has no ties to history how about people use something other than early modern mirror plates and curved swords like every other single game?

Here as a bonus what early medieval Arab arms and armour would look like:

Not that it matters, because games are not historically accurate we must always use a very specific type of weapon and armour from late 15th century and early 16th century from Central Asia to represent medieval Arabs. After all, not being historical means sticking to most obvious type of stereotype all the time every time. Never exploring any of the possibilities that could be drawn upon to base the theme on the time period and culture we explicitly advertise.

 

[Reinhardt]

Personally i'm ok with

 

[FreeKaner]

I am not surprised you are ok with it considering you seem to have as much of an original personality as your profile picture.

 

[Murk]

Please don't stop 'sperging out, I'm enjoying all the pictures you are posting for reference.

 

[Tigranes]

(ITT FreeKaner is largely correct, yet fights futilely against a bunch of people who don't really know or care, and are trying to rationalise this into a coherent argument)

The irony in this case is that paying a little more attention to history - without being some kind of super-autistic "it must be 1191 and not 1193!!!" - would provide a lot more cool-looking battle bros with a distinct aesthetic.

Now, if they had some kind of "the desert bros in BB are going to be a kind of ottoman-inspired area with a rich civilisation at its peak with arts and culture to plunder and sell at a profit to the monster-infested eurobros", then that's fine with me. They don't have to craft a perfectly plausible explanation of the development of certain kinds of plate mail for a game like this.

What would be weird is if we saw tiers of bros who start out as naked axemen accompanying a Ottoman armoured dude throwing grenades. The most important thing is what kind of gameplay difference fighting desertbros is going to have.

 

[Zariusz]

Personally i'm ok with

Ahh yes, the grand battle between Atha-Thuuurhk and time and space traveling lost tribe. Legends says that Earth was so toxic after this battle that it could be compared to my Bros after goblin archer attack.