Battle Brothers Pre-Release Thread

[dehimos]

Tried first 2 missions, ok. Third beated me up like a noob. Fourth (first considered difficiult) was easy.
Tomorrow i'll try again.
My impression is that this is very tactical.
Loving archer mechanics: if friends are near and enemies away they doesn't block, if enemies and friends are near it's very dangerous... Well, maybe it's me, but result seems different than average stuff!
Loving also detailed terrain mechanics.
Looks fairly polished though not perfect: it's an achievement being first demo!

Ah, demo doesn't start with intel hd3000 for me (not that was a problem...).

"Line battle" (fifth) is fucking awesome. I won with two deads, the AI made me a couple of good plays.

 

[The_scorpion]

And what crucial information do you guys miss?

Would JA2 be destroyed if floating damage numbers weren't there? X-Com just sucks, it gives no feedback on alien health whatsoever!

recent mods allow turning off floating damage numbers in Ja2. I always used that recently. You can gauge the damage done by the screams of the enemies, the hitting bullets and the blood that drops on the ground. It must be done well, of course, which is the crucial Point.

 

[Galdred]

It is not always clear whether an attack dealt armor damage, health damage, or missed(I play without sound most of the time, though). I think floating numbers would help, or at least, colored blood marks when hitting (and something else when chipping at armor).
I think it would be better if up to 50% of the action points carried over to next turn, otherwise, it makes some weapons really weaker (the bill for instance, forces the used to waste 33% of his action points doing nothing).
It is sometimes hard to read the terrain with elevation, but that is a problem every game with elevation had anyway. Not sure there is a good way around.
The combat system seems quite solid so far. Every weapon seems to add something to the table, which is nice. I like the necromancer forcing to take a more offensive approach.

 

[Grunker]

I play without sound most of the time

Yep, me too.

I think it would be better if up to 50% of the action points carried over to next turn

I thought about this as well. Wouldn't it be better to add them as a bonus to defense or something similar, though? So you couldn't wait-stack AP making for even more HoMMish space-clicking..

 

[Galdred]

I played a little more. The initiative sequence makes it very painful to hunt down the last enemy:
I was playing the hill defence scenario. For whatever reason, the zombie duke did not see fit to engage the hill at the same time as everyone else, so after I repelled the attackers on the hill, I had to search for him, but as there are no incentive to end the mission quickly, and spliting the party might have ended in extra casualties, I searched the map with everyone, which took quite many turns until he showed up.
Not sure how best to address the hunt for the last alien on map, though.
The level of polish is impressive for a pre alpha, and the UI is quite responsive. I like the way each weapon feel different.


Edit : some other issues :

- I once opened the inventory to equip one of the brothers' weapon, and was told that he did not have sufficient AP left, even though he had not taken any action (had 9 AP left out of 9 for a 4 AP action)
It was after I had equiped another brother in the same turn.
- If one brother is 2 or 3 elevations higher than an opponent, he cannot hit him, but it still prevents him from using spearwall, as he is considered in melee nevertheless (despite both fighters not able to hit each other).
- If one hit only does armor damage, the log says : X was hit in the head for no damage, which is misleading when X lost a good part of his armor.
A minor issue: the armor HP displayed in the armor description does not seem to match the realy HP offered (and is usually much lower than the corresponding helment HP).

 

[rapsdjff]

I'm happy to see that despite some inconveniences and bugs present in the demo you seem to enjoy playing the game. That's really encouraging. We'll do another version of the combat demo that fixes all known bugs and adds the easier-to-add features that you guys requested.

+ So far, documentation in the combat itself is great. I hope you will be providing a good "player's handbook" to let your players know about the deeper mechanics?

Yes, we'd really like to do that down the road.

It's a little awkward that you have to Click + Drag to move the screen. Why not just have the screen move as you move the mouse to the edge of it?

Because that can be just as awkward. No matter, we'll add optional edge-of-screen scrolling to the game so that everyone can choose his or her own flavor of awkwardness.

Due to the lack of health bars, getting a quick overview of the battlefield is very difficult. This is my biggest niggle. Half-way through a fight, you have to hover the mouse over each character (enemy and friendly) if you want to get an overview of things look. Visual degrading of characters with low health is not precise enough to make a decision.

True. I'm thinking of a toggeable view mode that shows all relevant stats as an overlay ontop of characters instead of just being available via tooltip. Something like press Alt to show/hide them, or even just hold Alt to see them. We'll see how big they end up being in order to be readable and if its feasible to (optionally) have them present all the time.

I found some bugs:
- In the "early game" scenario I pressed backspace to delay my turn, but the brother disappeared from the queue instead of being moved to the end. Then after everyone else made their move the queue remained empty and I could not continue the game. Hitting spacebar or backspace didn't work.
- In the "hill" scenario at one point I couldn't attack anything with one of the brothers. I had the AP and stamina to spare but I couldn't target anything with any attack, and "Invalid target!" would appear when clicking on enemies.

Thanks, I'll see that they're fixed.

Having the same mouse button for actions and moving the camera is bad. If your mouse moves slightly when clicking, the click doesn't register since the game thinks you want to move the camera.

We'll add a slight threshold below which clicking and moving the mouse doesn't register as dragging in order to avoid the situation you describe. That is, for the people who prefer the dragging-style of scrolling the map, anyway.

It's annoying to have to toggle between the brother list and stash when equipping the brothers before a battle. You should be able to fit both on one screen.

Yes, it's not exactly ideal. Using the Tab key for switching between the two lists helps a bit. The problem for us is that we want to support a minimum resolution of 1024x768 but would like to avoid having to do two or more layouts for different resolutions given our sparse resources. We'll give it some more thought.

It would be nice to be able to use the basic attack just by clicking on an enemy without having to select it.

Noted.

demo doesn't start with intel hd3000 for me

Could you give me more specifics? Do you get an error message popup? Could you make a screenshot of it? Thanks!

 

[Grunker]

Something like press Alt to show/hide them, or even just hold Alt to see them.

That'd work!

 

[rapsdjff]

It is not always clear whether an attack dealt armor damage, health damage, or missed(I play without sound most of the time, though). I think floating numbers would help, or at least, colored blood marks when hitting (and something else when chipping at armor).

Playing with sound does definately help but I'm surprised the visual distinction between an attack dealing armor or hitpoint damage isn't clear enough. Already characters flash red when they lose hitpoints and spurt blood, whereas they flash white (and don't lose any blood) when their armor is hit. The visual difference between a miss and a hit to armor, on the other hand, I can see being not always clear enough without sound enabled. We'll give making the armor hit effect more visually striking some thought.

I think it would be better if up to 50% of the action points carried over to next turn, otherwise, it makes some weapons really weaker (the bill for instance, forces the used to waste 33% of his action points doing nothing).

I thought about this as well. Wouldn't it be better to add them as a bonus to defense or something similar, though? So you couldn't wait-stack AP making for even more HoMMish space-clicking..

Don't think of the two-handed weapons wasting action points after attacking - we could just increase the AP cost for using the skills and there'd be no waste. Instead, consider this: We wanted one-handed and two-handed weapons to feel different in their use, which is why we decided on two possible attacks with one-handed weapons per turn, and just one with two-handed weapons. One-handed weapons offer more flexibility, especially combined with a shield (two offensive actions? one offensive + one defensive? two defensive?), whereas two-handed weapons are more high-risk high-reward in terms of less defense and more damage (or in the case of the Billhook, utility) with just one shot per turn. We settled on an AP cost of just 6 (instead of 8 or so) to give the two-handed weapon wielder the ability to move one tile in addition to his attack, just as a bonus.

Speaking in general, however, we considered both your options, carrying over action points into the next turn and having a bonus to defense. The latter option we liked more but ultimately also kind-of decided against. As you know, our characters' actions are based on the use of skills - and ending a turn then to receive an effect not from a skill, but from a rule existing in parallel to our skill system isn't the most intuitively fitting thing. Instead, having a bunch of defensive-minded skills (Shieldwall, Spearwall and Riposte currently) proved to be a much more clear and interesting approach to enable the player to invest AP for a defensive boost while at the same time also giving more fine control. As we go on to add more weapons that didn't make it into the demo (throwing weapons, two-handed axe, warhammer, etc) and refine some of the already existing ones we might also add more unique defensive skills. Possibly even to one or two of the two-handed weapons to better distinguish them from another.

I played a little more. The initiative sequence makes it very painful to hunt down the last enemy:
I was playing the hill defence scenario. For whatever reason, the zombie duke did not see fit to engage the hill at the same time as everyone else, so after I repelled the attackers on the hill, I had to search for him, but as there are no incentive to end the mission quickly, and spliting the party might have ended in extra casualties, I searched the map with everyone, which took quite many turns until he showed up. Not sure how best to address the hunt for the last alien on map, though.

I agree this is a problem. How about we just have the last one or two enemies magically know where the Battle Brothers are on the map and engage in that general direction to meet the player? It may be kind of cheating, but there's a showdown coming anyway, and finding that last enemy is mostly just busywork and not actual tactical challenge, so there is little point in dragging it out for another 5 minutes and waste the player's time.

The level of polish is impressive for a pre alpha, and the UI is quite responsive. I like the way each weapon feel different.

Thank you

- I once opened the inventory to equip one of the brothers' weapon, and was told that he did not have sufficient AP left, even though he had not taken any action (had 9 AP left out of 9 for a 4 AP action)
It was after I had equiped another brother in the same turn.
- If one brother is 2 or 3 elevations higher than an opponent, he cannot hit him, but it still prevents him from using spearwall, as he is considered in melee nevertheless (despite both fighters not able to hit each other).

Yikes. I'll fix it.

- If one hit only does armor damage, the log says : X was hit in the head for no damage, which is misleading when X lost a good part of his armor.

I'll change the log to also give numbers for armor damage.

A minor issue: the armor HP displayed in the armor description does not seem to match the realy HP offered (and is usually much lower than the corresponding helment HP).

Sorry, I don't get this one. You get less armor value from an item than the item description claims you should? Can you elaborate?

 

[Galdred]

I think it would be better if up to 50% of the action points carried over to next turn, otherwise, it makes some weapons really weaker (the bill for instance, forces the used to waste 33% of his action points doing nothing).

I thought about this as well. Wouldn't it be better to add them as a bonus to defense or something similar, though? So you couldn't wait-stack AP making for even more HoMMish space-clicking..

Don't think of the two-handed weapons wasting action points after attacking - we could just increase the AP cost for using the skills and there'd be no waste. Instead, consider this: We wanted one-handed and two-handed weapons to feel different in their use, which is why we decided on two possible attacks with one-handed weapons per turn, and just one with two-handed weapons. One-handed weapons offer more flexibility, especially combined with a shield (two offensive actions? one offensive + one defensive? two defensive?), whereas two-handed weapons are more high-risk high-reward in terms of less defense and more damage (or in the case of the Billhook, utility) with just one shot per turn. We settled on an AP cost of just 6 (instead of 8 or so) to give the two-handed weapon wielder the ability to move one tile in addition to his attack, just as a bonus.

Speaking in general, however, we considered both your options, carrying over action points into the next turn and having a bonus to defense. The latter option we liked more but ultimately also kind-of decided against. As you know, our characters' actions are based on the use of skills - and ending a turn then to receive an effect not from a skill, but from a rule existing in parallel to our skill system isn't the most intuitively fitting thing. Instead, having a bunch of defensive-minded skills (Shieldwall, Spearwall and Riposte currently) proved to be a much more clear and interesting approach to enable the player to invest AP for a defensive boost while at the same time also giving more fine control. As we go on to add more weapons that didn't make it into the demo (throwing weapons, two-handed axe, warhammer, etc) and refine some of the already existing ones we might also add more unique defensive skills. Possibly even to one or two of the two-handed weapons to better distinguish them from another.

So then, I assume the action points will be fixed? If then, it won't be an issue, but otherwise, it will make the difference between someone with 12 and someone with 11 AP artificially high.

A minor issue: the armor HP displayed in the armor description does not seem to match the realy HP offered (and is usually much lower than the corresponding helment HP).

Sorry, I don't get this one. You get less armor value from an item than the item description claims you should? Can you elaborate?

Sorry, it was an error from my part, I thought the armor equipped in the inventory screen, and the armor value in game were not always the same, but after some more testing, it seems I just imagined it(I must have mistaken one armor suit for another in inventory).

 

[rapsdjff]

So then, I assume the action points will be fixed? If then, it won't be an issue, but otherwise, it will make the difference between someone with 12 and someone with 11 AP artificially high.

Yes, I neglected to mention that. Action points are fixed at 9 for all Battle Brothers (though different enemies may have different values) precisely for the reason you point out.

 

[Grunker]

You could also give each character a secondary weapon like a dagger or something which can be used to make small, insignificant attacks for 1 AP. Or something like a pommel strike for two-handers etc., that would tie it to the skill system.

 

[rapsdjff]

I just hope we won't just be fighting undead for the whole game. They aren't exactly the most original enemies, even if there's good variety of them.

No, the undead are just one of several types of enemies that will make it into the game. It's actually my fault the demo features them exclusively; I wanted to start the AI with an enemy that didn't need to be all that intelligent to feel right and be ready to play against, and zombies fit this well. The next step in AI evolution then was skeletons, who show more tactical awareness and ability to use skills depending on the situation, and all of a sudden we had half an undead faction.

Other enemies planned are the always popular greenskins, enemies of the human variety (which will probably come rather late as I want their AI to be somewhat competent) and then some more original creatures not seen in every other fantasy game. We aren't quite finished with the undead faction either, though, and will add a few more interesting variants with unique mechanics that should help break the monotony.

The concept piece below shows what some of the orcs and goblins will look like (although their exact appearance is still subject to change at this point).

You could also give each character a secondary weapon like a dagger or something which can be used to make small, insignificant attacks for 1 AP. Or something like a pommel strike for two-handers etc., that would tie it to the skill system.

I was thinking about a "Pommel Strike" before but couldn't yet come up with an interesting mechanic that fit well into the greater picture. Also, characters without a shield are currently clearly at a disadvantage. That's realistic, of course, but for gameplay reasons I'd still like to offer some incentive to go this route, so perhaps a kind of off-hand parry dagger which grants a special third attack would be a way to go.

 

[Grunker]

I was thinking about a "Pommel Strike" before but couldn't yet come up with an interesting mechanic that fit well into the greater picture. Also, characters without a shield are currently clearly at a disadvantage. That's realistic, of course, but for gameplay reasons I'd still like to offer some incentive to go this route, so perhaps a kind of off-hand parry dagger which grants a special third attack would be a way to go.

My point was that you could give each character a skill that cost 1 AP. Make it something very minor like Pommel Strike for small damage. This would eradicate the AP-leftovers problem in a manner that wouldn't unbalance the combat.

 

[Galdred]

A minor issue is that having equipment in the inventory gives no penalty at all(max fatigue is only decreased when you switch weapons), so a warrior can carry 4 extra shields to replace a broken one, or alternate sets of weapons without penalty, which makes giving dagger as secondary weapons useless.

 

[rapsdjff]

My point was that you could give each character a skill that cost 1 AP. Make it something very minor like Pommel Strike for small damage. This would eradicate the AP-leftovers problem in a manner that wouldn't unbalance the combat.

It may not unbalance combat, but it would run counter to what we're trying to do player experience wise. As I said, we want to have two attacks for one-handed weapons and one attack for two-handed weapons so that those weapon types feel unique in how they're used. Each attack should feel significant and potentially reward the player for his or her action. I don't think it would be very satisfying to have up to 9 (though usually between 1 and 3 I suppose) insignificant attacks in addition to the 1 or 2 normal attacks per turn, for up to 12 characters. It's a lot of additional clicking for no benefit other than not having any AP left at the end of the turn. I don't think there is a AP-leftovers problem, it's just a matter of perspective; what AP are left over are a bonus, something that can be spend for movement (and possibly inventory interaction if we change the cost of e.g. dropping items to the ground) but not something that is wasted. Also, not spending every last bit of AP allows characters to recover from fatigue.

A minor issue is that having equipment in the inventory gives no penalty at all(max fatigue is only decreased when you switch weapons), so a warrior can carry 4 extra shields to replace a broken one, or alternate sets of weapons without penalty, which makes giving dagger as secondary weapons useless.

I agree. We considered options like having specialized slots in the bag (so that characters can only carry 1 additional shield and 1 or 2 additional weapons, for example), reducing the number of bag slots (and possibly have the others be unlockable via the skilltree by some packmule passive skill) and having items in the bag also reduce the maximum fatigue. There wasn't time for any of those ideas to make it into the demo, though. We'll change this for future versions.

 

[Grunker]

It may not unbalance combat, but it would run counter to what we're trying to do player experience wise. As I said, we want to have two attacks for one-handed weapons and one attack for two-handed weapons so that those weapon types feel unique in how they're used. Each attack should feel significant and potentially reward the player for his or her action. I don't think it would be very satisfying to have up to 9 (though usually between 1 and 3 I suppose) insignificant attacks in addition to the 1 or 2 normal attacks per turn, for up to 12 characters. It's a lot of additional clicking for no benefit other than not having any AP left at the end of the turn. I don't think there is a AP-leftovers problem, it's just a matter of perspective; what AP are left over are a bonus, something that can be spend for movement (and possibly inventory interaction if we change the cost of e.g. dropping items to the ground) but not something that is wasted. Also, not spending every last bit of AP allows characters to recover from fatigue.

Fair enough. I think all these are completely legitimate concerns! However I think you maybe should've gone for an action-based economy instead of an action point-based one then. But eh, that's probably too late to do change now. Regardless, it was just a thought.

 

[rapsdjff]

Update Time! We have a new version of the Combat Demo up that adds optional hitpoint bars just for Grunker

Dev Blog #14: Combat Demo Updated – Changelog

Has it been a week already? We’ve updated the Pre-Alpha Combat Demo of Battle Brothers to fix the bugs you guys reported and add a bunch of features you requested. Chief among them are the new optional armor and hitpoint bars shown above all characters. You can find a full list of changes down below. If you haven’t tried the demo yet or want to give it another go, don’t wait any longer and download it here: DEMO DOWNLOAD!

As always, we depend on your feedback. Talk to us and let us know of any problems you encounter and anything you’d like to see changed or added to the game!



Changelog

• Fixed bug that could leave the game hanging indefinately during the AI turn when the necromancer moves outside of view towards corpses to resurrect
• Fixed bug that could leave the game hanging when using the wait turn action with only a few characters left
• Fixed bug that had the inventory tooltip sometimes claim a character doesn’t have enough AP to switch items when in fact he does
• Fixed bug that had tooltips for hidden opponents show “Click left to focus” when it wasn’t in fact possible
• Fixed bug that characters wouldn’t immediately show the hidden status effect icon if spawned inside brush
• Fixed bug that had skeletons sometimes use the Shieldwall skill when no opponent was actually in range
• Fixed shader incompatibility with some low end video cards
• The last few scattered opponents on a map should be a bit easier to find now
• The combat log now also gives exact numbers for armor damage taken
• Added optional edge of screen scrolling mode (disabled by default)
• Added a slight movement threshold to drag-style scrolling in order to avoid accidentally scrolling the map when trying to click something
• Added optional camera mode that always keeps the current AI character in focus (disabled by default)
• Added an option to disable the hardware cursor and use a software cursor instead (use this for a visible cursor when making videos of the game!)
• Added support for scrolling with ZQSD keyboard layouts
• Added optional overlay to show armor and hitpoint bars at all times (toggleable with Alt key and in the options menu)

 

[Grunker]

Sweeeeeeeet

 

[Essegi]

Could you give me more specifics? Do you get an error message popup? Could you make a screenshot of it? Thanks!

Sry for late response, i remember something like a grey screen. Later i'll check (atm i can't).
I've optimus system and switching to 540M worked fine. The game btw still sometimes froze (if i remember well win even says the applications does not repond) but recovers quickly and has never crashed, so not a vital issue.

 

[rapsdjff]

If it's not too much to ask, could I trouble you to test with the most recent version of the combat demo found here? We did some changes to fix compatiblity issues with older video cards, so that might have already resolved your issue. Thanks alot!

 

[Essegi]

Np bro!
Unfortunately nothing changed (but i've not verified if hang problems are solved).
When i use hd3000 a blank browser page opens at that adress: file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/Battle%20Brothers/logviewer/log_viewer.html
With 540M no problems.
Acer aspire 5742G
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium (x64) Build 7600
Directx updated some days ago.
I've just updated hd3000 driver card, here specs:

Intel HD Graphics ---------------------------------------------------------

[Video chipset]
Video Chipset: Intel HD Graphics
Video Chipset Codename: Ironlake
Video Memory: 1797482 KBytes
[Video Card]
Video Card: Intel Auburndale/Arrandale Processor - Integrated Graphics Controller [ACER]
Video Bus: Integrated
Video RAMDAC: Integrated RAMDAC
Video BIOS Version: 1994 PC 14.34 02/17/2010 03:04:44
[Performance]
Processor Clock: 366.7 MHz
Hardware ID: PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_0046&SUBSYS_04881025&REV_02
[Driver Information]
Driver Manufacturer: Intel Corporation
Driver Description: Intel(R) HD Graphics
Driver Provider: Intel Corporation
Driver Version: 8.15.10.2993
Driver Date: 30-Jan-2013
DeviceInstanceId PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_0046&SUBSYS_04881025&REV_02\3&11583659&0&10

 

[lightbane]

Coming back from my exile to comment that I liked this game, although I still have to learn how it works, as I'm owned quite easily. Also, hopefully the final version will have some sort of explanation about how certain mechanics work, ie the zombies. I've seen these reanimate themselves upon killed randomly and other times not, but I don't know if there's some sort of strategy hidden here. Perhaps attacks to the head ensure they don't revive? I'm not completely sure.

In addition, there's some sort of bug that prevents me from quitting the game. Upon clicking on the "Quit" label, the game freezes. Thankfully I can force it to close down with Ctr+alt+supr, but obviously it is not an ideal situation. I'm still using Windows XP if that matters (in before being called "outdated fag" or something).

 

[Scroo]

Woah, how could I miss this game until now?! Looks great, downloading the demo while I type!

 

[rapsdjff]

Thank you both. I'll PM you.

Also, hopefully the final version will have some sort of explanation about how certain mechanics work, ie the zombies. I've seen these reanimate themselves upon killed randomly and other times not, but I don't know if there's some sort of strategy hidden here. Perhaps attacks to the head ensure they don't revive? I'm not completely sure.

It didn't make it into the demo, but we'll have an information window that can be opened for every enemy, giving a description of the enemy, as well as descriptions (and not just mildly obscure icons, as it is now) of all current status effects, similar to how it is for player characters in the character screen. Within that description we'll also add some explanation as to the zombies' ability to rise again. In general, we'll try to keep it somewhat vague, though, giving enough pointers to avoid frustration and all-out confusion while hopefully leaving enough for players to discover themselves.

Since that information window isn't in the game yet, here is how the zombie mechanics work right now: Zombies have a 40% chance to rise again one single time at half health (and without any armor regenerated) if they die. In addition, they have a 33% chance to turn any Battle Brother into a zombie should they kill him. These are their unique passive abilities, if you will, and don’t require the presence of a necromancer. There is nothing the player can do to prevent this currently, but there may be in the future (e.g. using holy water or somesuch once we have crafting in the game further down the road).

 

[Scroo]

Alright, played the first two scenarios of the demo. I kinda suck, got two of my archers killed in scenario two but I relish a challenge.

It looks very promising and I didn't encounter any bugs during my short time of play. Also I really like the extensive mouseover texts, they do help a lot already.
What I would love to see would be some kind of 'rolling the dice' info when you attack or defend. I like to know what's happening in the background.

Definitely looking forward to the complete game. Checking out the further scenarios now.