Editorial Bethesda developer explains why TB is obsolete

[elander_]

Reading is fundamental.

No that's what you wrote. But it's kind of pointless when you write one thing in one post and another thing completely opposite a few posts ahead.

"As far as realtime roleplaying being more advanced than turnbased roleplaying. It is. It took thinking, savy, and tech more advanced than what came before to make realtime roleplaying a reality. Until the computer came along Roleplaying as a game HAD to be turnbased and it was a trend that continued until theory caught up to the tech. "

No this wasn't the case with Fallout and people explained you why already. There are even posts from Fallout devs who said they made a conscious decision when going for turn base.

Besides you are being ignorant of games like Laser Squad Nemesis (from the author of XCom) that brought TB to a new level.

"Advanced doesn't mean superior. And advancement leading to other options doesn't invalidate the past. But faulting people for using the new options, just because they're not the old options is what I have the most problems with. "

Your just basing your ignorant opinion about what makes RT more advanced or innovative based on your own personal taste. You don't like TB so you didn't made a proper search to backup your arguments. See the game i mentioned or Jagged Alliance or other few games that improved greatly on TB combat and made it much better than anything you saw in Fallout.

The reason why Bethesda has choosen to go for action has nothing to do with advancement but with the mainstream and marketing. Graphics sell more than story. Sports like Football have more adepts than sports like Chess. That's the real reason: sell as much as they can.

 

[sqeecoo]

For the record, I've never said "TB sucks." If somebody else said it, then I disagree. I like TB and I think it's even madatory for some games. I just don't think that TB is mandatory for fallout or roleplaying at large.

And again, when bethesda screws up fallout I don't think people are going to point to the fact that it's realtime and say "That's it! everything else was spot-on, but that damned realtime aspect killed it!."

As far as realtime roleplaying being more advanced than turnbased roleplaying. It is. It took thinking, savy, and tech more advanced than what came before to make realtime roleplaying a reality. Until the computer came along Roleplaying as a game HAD to be turnbased and it was a trend that continued until theory caught up to the tech.

Advanced doesn't mean superior. And advancement leading to other options doesn't invalidate the past. But faulting people for using the new options, just because they're not the old options is what I have the most problems with.

I've made it clear that it's not a big deal to me, and why it's not a big deal. Agreeing or disagreeing depends entirely on you.

This is a nice post, one I might come to agree with. I am too lazy to search for quotes, so I can't be sure he didn't say any wrong things before (and he never put them stupidly as in "LOL TB SUX", but as parts of an agrument), but he appears to be summing up his current position here, and it seems fine. Some of the things VD quoted that are a bit silly are here modified into better and more modest claims.

Throughout the discussion, he has been fairly clear, well spoken, and open to criticism.

VD, it's your forum, but I don't think he needs a tag just for being wrong about some things. I am glad that you didn't dumbfuck him at least, but I would agree with Van that you didn't prove him stupid (not wrong, wrong does not deserve a tag) just by posting those quotes. I don't agree with some of them, but I would call only one or two silly, the rest have been argued for fairly well.

VD, you also come across as needlessly rude and condescending. He seems eager to discuss these things, and you are calling him a dumbfuck. Now I might have missed some things here (like him changing his opinion form post to post as some of you say he did), but regarding the tag, I think you are in the wrong.

Edited for spelling

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

"Really? I thought that we mostly disagreed and often argued to death, Volly. Have I ever given you a tag?"

Nha. You just banned me. Yeah, much more mature way to handle disagreeement, right?

"Anyway, I posted MVB's quotes. Prove that his opinion is valid and I'll apologize."

No, you wouldn't. His opinion is valid. All opinions are valid ones. Even dumb ones. How many times have people posted that NWN sucks because it's not BG? Quite a few. That's a very dumb reason to hate agame yet you would NEVER Dumbfuck someone for hating on NWN because you share that opinion.

It's hilarious that you want me to 'prove' his opinion is valid when you know thats likely impossible since the idea of his opinion being valid or not is pretty much opinion anyways.

That's the problem. It's not the dumbness that's the reason for him being Dumbfucked. That's the excuse. The reason is his opinion is not agreed upon by the Codex Hive and espicially not by you. Or keep posting this crap. Your call.


Anyways, I'll let you get the last word if you wnat. I have more important I N T E R N E T D R A M A to dela with today. L0L

I have to go too. No no, hold the applause, I'll be back after my meeting.

 

[Zomg]

I think they should have a mix. Birds eye camera interchangeable with first person camera and TB interchangeable with RT. Problem solved and everyone is happy. The problem would be balancing the game so to make it challenging but still not frustrating while playing in both modes.

Man, no. Balance is not just some shit you do at the end. Attempts to hybridize TB combat have sucked every single Goddamn time, at least in the games I've played. Actually - Space Hulk is pretty good, but that design is not exactly setting the world on fire. Wow, that would be pretty cool if they used that classy-ass Space Hulk system somehow. I'd buy that. I digress! As a rule it's one or the other.

 

[mister lamat]

prove what? that he has an open mind on the situation? all that's required for a valid opinion on what you'd 'like to see in a video game' is that you have one.

what the fuck is with the fascism of thought? we all have to agree that chess would be the same even if the creators had access to workstations? that d&d didn't go real time a decade ago? that new mechanics or design concepts are not allowed and somehow pernicious to introduce into fallout? that turn-based combat isn't an abstraction and an incredibly artificial experience?

nothing in that list worth agreeing with.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nha. You just banned me. Yeah, much more mature way to handle disagreeement, right?

Disagreement? I asked you to be a bit nicer to people and you refused. I banned you for a day. Big fucking deal.

How many times have people posted that NWN sucks because it's not BG?

How many? A link or two would be nice.

It's hilarious that you want me to 'prove' his opinion is valid when you know thats likely impossible since the idea of his opinion being valid or not is pretty much opinion anyways.

We'll let the other folks here be judges then. Not everyone agreed with my position, so I have no reason to believe that they will take my side by default.

 

[mister lamat]

honestly, you shouldn't have a side in this. shut the fuck up and hand control of the tags back to saint. i don't care if he's here or not, directing discussion through the use of name calling is fucking sad.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Reading is fundamental.

No that's what you wrote. But it's kind of pointless when you write one thing in one post and another thing completely opposite a few posts ahead.

"As far as realtime roleplaying being more advanced than turnbased roleplaying. It is. It took thinking, savy, and tech more advanced than what came before to make realtime roleplaying a reality. Until the computer came along Roleplaying as a game HAD to be turnbased and it was a trend that continued until theory caught up to the tech. "

No this wasn't the case with Fallout and people explained you why already. There are even posts from Fallout devs who said they made a conscious decision when going for turn base.

Besides you are being ignorant of games like Laser Squad Nemesis (from the author of XCom) that brought TB to a new level.

"Advanced doesn't mean superior. And advancement leading to other options doesn't invalidate the past. But faulting people for using the new options, just because they're not the old options is what I have the most problems with. "

Your just basing your ignorant opinion about what makes RT more advanced or innovative based on your own personal taste. You don't like TB so you didn't made a proper search to backup your arguments. See the game i mentioned or Jagged Alliance or other few games that improved greatly on TB combat and made it much better than anything you saw in Fallout.

The reason why Bethesda has choosen to go for action has nothing to do with advancement but with the mainstream and marketing. Graphics sell more than story. Sports like Football have more adepts than sports like Chess. That's the real reason: sell as much as they can.

Just one last thing before I go.

I went back in time to the dawn of RPGs to make that post. Even before crpgs. I thought it was clear that it wasn't a fallout or fallout era centric post. Anyways, I flowed all the way to the present.

A work of "art," commercial or not, doesn't have to follow tech trends. But advancement does open up new options.

That being said, which ever option the team decides to go with is their call. Be it fallout 1 or fallout 3. But you can't fault them for trying new options.

But back in the day, a realtime rpg wasn't even an option. We're talkin' pnp and generation 1 here, not some of our "silverage" favorites like daggerfall or fallout.

 

[Vault Dweller]

prove what?

Playing stupid now?

that he has an open mind on the situation?

Read the quotes and then tell me.

honestly, you shouldn't have a side in this. shut the fuck up and hand control of the tags back to saint. i don't care if he's here or not, directing discussion through the use of name calling is fucking sad.

And Saint's never done it? Who do you think dumbfucked Sarvis and illiterated Gambler? Do you think that happened after careful considerations or during a debate?

 

[sqeecoo]

that he has an open mind on the situation?

Read the quotes and then tell me.

Well, if you read his post, the one I quoted, he seems to be giving up on the sillier claims. I would call that having an open mind...

 

[mister lamat]

no seriously, what are you asking me to prove? that his opinion is valid to him as it's what he'd like to see in a video game? read which comments? the ones you pointed out were fairly open ended and fair, so no hub-bub there.

are you asking to prove that his opinion doesn't jive with you or a few others? that's kinda self-evident.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But back in the day, a realtime rpg wasn't even an option. We're talkin' pnp and generation 1 here, not some of our "silverage" favorites like daggerfall or fallout.

For fuck's sakes. Dungeon Master was either the first and one of the first real time RPGs. That was back in 1987. Almost 10 years before Fallout. There is no such thing as a "more technologically advanced" combat mode.

 

[mister lamat]

every build that incorporates new mechanics and concepts is more technologically advanced than the one which came before it.

you deserve an illiterate tag for that one, if you're gonna play by your own rules.

 

[Vault Dweller]

no seriously, what are you asking me to prove?

You can read, can't you?

that his opinion is valid to him...

That his quotes represent a valid opinion as of opposite to some crap.

*sigh*

Examples:

"RT is not an inferior combat mode and can work well in an RPG" - a valid opinion that even a 12-year old can easily defend.

"RT combat's superior technology recovered from an alien spaceship has made TB obsolete and useless" - load of crap that can't be supported by arguments.

every build that incorporates new mechanics and concepts is more technologically advanced than the one which came before it.

you deserve an illiterate tag for that one, if you're gonna play by your own rules.

Nice try. Read it again, it says "combat mode". Using your own logic, ToEE's TB combat is more advanced than RT because it came after a shitload of RT games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, it's your forum, but I don't think he needs a tag just for being wrong about some things. I am glad that you didn't dumbfuck him at least, but I would agree with Van that you didn't prove him stupid (not wrong, wrong does not deserve a tag) just by posting those quotes.

Coming shortly.

VD, you also come across as needlessly rude and condescending. He seems eager to discuss these things...

He argued for 6 pages, digging himself deeper and deeper, before I joined this discussion. Besides, it's not like I took away his ability to argue.

 

[mister lamat]

nay, but it's more advanced than that in fallout, system shock, baldur's gate, betrayal at antara, ultima underworld, or the ancient gold box series.

fairly sure that's a chronological ordering of the games, all which featured differing combat modes which were all more technologically advanced than the one which proceeded it. is it more advanced than some rt systems? of course it is, don't be daft.

all he's been saying is that rt combat can work in an rpg and doesn't have to be a detriment to the genre... hell, it could even advance it by borrowing from other genres. if you don't want to see it in this particular instance, that's all well and good but it's by no means the measure of an opinion's value.

just because you want to be a defeatist pussy circling the pseudo-intellectual wagons doesn't mean you have to be.

 

[merry andrew]

Why was this response kind of completely glossed over?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Considering the abuse I'm getting dished for just having a contrary opinion...

No, you are getting "abuse" for posting some really dumb shit and hiding behind "but it's my opinion, guys!". For instance:
...
If the inventors of chess had all of the above tools and resources, I doubt they would have made chess.

Hell, even DnD has made the leap to real time. Why is it a crime for fallout to move beyond turnbased?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fallout fan. ...but just because I love it, doesn't mean that I don't want to see where else fallout can go and in what other ways fallout can be experienced.

I think it just means that I'm not affraid of doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete.

Turnbased has to be one of the most artificial gaming dynamics in existence.

And I still play chess. But I also love starcraft, which is nothing if not a real time chess game.

To say that a player must be completely divorced from a character or the role is invalidated, is dramaticly unsound. btw, actors were once called players. Just a little something to think about.

I love some black and white and silient movies, but I'd never consider demanding that the industry should stagnate at my preference.

True Isometric in a 3d game is oxymoronic, as isometric perspective is only there to cheat a 3d effect on a 2d plane.
...
And so on. Any last words?

Since some people requested to see a proof of this quotes' stupidity:

If the inventors of chess had all of the above tools and resources, I doubt they would have made chess.

a) Chess is one of the most advanced strategy games ever created. No RT game has managed to come close to chess' levels of depth, complexity, and the number of tactical options, which explains why the game survived for centuries.

b) the concept of RT games certainly wasn't a novelty and it wouldn't have required a genius to make a board game where the players play as fast as their speed allows them, so a claim like the one above is absolutely ridiculous and can't be supported.

Hell, even DnD has made the leap to real time. Why is it a crime for fallout to move beyond turnbased?

DnD has not, in fact, made the leap to real time. The ruleset remains turn-based for many obvious reasons. Bioware did make several RT DnD games, which completely fucked up the rules, creating completely different game mechanics. It should be obvious to anyone who played BG and ToEE. The reason that Bio (and other companies) made these games is not because RT offered more - in fact, it offered much less - but because RT is more appealing to the casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fallout fan. ...but just because I love it, doesn't mean that I don't want to see where else fallout can go and in what other ways fallout can be experienced.

That's like saying I'm a huge Daggerfall fan, but I would really like to see in which ways the series could be fucked. How about an action game? Shit, Battlespire tanked. How about another one? Yay! Critical hit! Oblivion is praised as the second coming of Jesus!

Someone who claims to be a "huge fan" of the series should understand that fucking with the components will definitely change the series, creating something different from the original. I don't think there is a single "huge fan" of any series who would like to see the series changed into something else. The "huge fan" comment is either bullshit or stupid.

I think it just means that I'm not affraid of doing away with a combat system invented before automated computing made "turns" more or less obselete.

Do I really have to explain this one too? Is there anyone here who believes that this statement is not the biggest load of crap you've ever seen? Say "aye" and I'll gladly explain.

Turnbased has to be one of the most artificial gaming dynamics in existence.

Games are loaded with artificial concepts: hit points, no eating/drinking/sleeping, spells memorization, carrying enough junk to open a store, defeating armies and dragons, etc.

RT is as artificial as anything else on that list. You simply can't jump in the middle of a battle and kill 10 creatures without breaking a sweat and worrying about exposing your back. You can't tell me that God of War's or Morrowind's combat is realistic, can you?

And I still play chess. But I also love starcraft, which is nothing if not a real time chess game.

Starcraft is real time chess? You've gotta be kidding me. To be honest, I don't even know where to start here, but this is the dumbest thing you've posted here today. Anyway, need I continue?

 

[giantgnome]

Why was this response kind of completely glossed over?

Maybe too long for an illiterate to read? Or maybe because it refuted pretty much every point he had.

 

[Licaon_Kter]

~14 more months to go...
too me looks like the Codex is again trapped under the hype cloak... Oblivion deja-vu...

 

[John Yossarian]

Why was this response kind of completely glossed over?

Maybe too long for an illiterate to read? Or maybe because it refuted pretty much every point he had.

I read that and got sad. The only thing that keeps me believing that convincing Beth to make the gameplay like the originals will make a good RPG if the combat is rt is that arcanum and pst both were pretty bad in that department and were still great RPGs. Section8 managed to depress me more than having had to try on women socks at a clothing store.

 

[Kraszu]

fairly sure that's a chronological ordering of the games, all which featured differing combat modes which were all more technologically advanced than the one which proceeded it. is it more advanced than some rt systems? of course it is, don't be daft.

That is a point? Add some mechanics to tb FO and we have more advanced mechanics, whit that logic no matter what system will be if it has new elements it will be more technologically advanced in other words all that twisted logic is pointless, leads nowhere and have nothing to do whit tb vs rt.

That is OT but since it was flashed:Starcraft is pretty complex strategy game, decisions are time based instead of number of moves based (that is very alike), but it require many diferent things then chess. In no way it replace chess. It require mad twitch skills but it doesn't mean that there is no strategy depth, you don't need that to beat computer but you need that to beat good players. There is much more to sc then you think.

 

[mister lamat]

you're right, the quality of combat mechanics or level of involvement has nothing to do with the game being real-time or turn-based at all.

 

[merry andrew]

I know everyone knows this but I want to say it anyway: Starcraft isn't an RPG.

 

[kingcomrade]

I know everyone knows this but I want to say it anyway: Starcraft isn't an RPG.

It already has stats, though. All you need to do is add loot and it would be.