Editorial Bethesda developer explains why TB is obsolete

[John Yossarian]

Dumbfuck him and get it over with. I just hope he doesn't pussy out and leave because of it. Sarvis wears his dumbfuck proudly, and IMO he is a pretty smart poster even though he is a filthy pinko.

 

[mister lamat]

he never said 'turn-based sucks'... man, i say turn-based bores the living fuck out of me after two decades. it just does, all opinion and all relational fact. he's said a great many things over the past few pages and it's lead to discussion... some reply in that ever present froth at the mouth new school codexian, others have actually had a bit of back and forth, which has been a good read.

my tent is large, i welcome all.

 

[JarlFrank]

And, choose your tactics how to attack the enemy. Real Time combat can sometimes be as tactical as TB combat. Now, I won't deny that RT and TB are completely different, and I also like TB more than RT, but Real Time combat won't make an otherwise complete RPG an Action-RPG. That is nonsense.

How does RT impact gameplay design? It doesn't help in a gamist RPG sense (character design and decisions), it doesn't help in a narrativist RPG sense, it could be argued to help simulation but that falls closer to LARP idea of role playing (the ultimate RPG would be for me as myself to be teleported into D&D). If it doesn't promote RPG design, why is it there? If it degrades the RPG design how far before it is its own sub-genre?

What does the combat in Elder Scroll do to gameplay design? Despite the fact that stats effect outcome (FPS games have hidden stats too) does it promote any RPG design or is it closer to action game design, I would certainly call it an action design element.

Do mini-games during dialog still make it a complete RPG? How about a racing game instead of travel. Having twitch gameplay makes it less then complete, you can argue degrees of where to put the sub-genre but gameplay effects in such games like Daggerfall are high up there for action elements (you could argue about Baldur Gate style of broken RT/Phase system).

I still don't think that the combat system is really important for rating the game an Action-RPG or not. Sure, RT might be more actiony than TB. But is it less roleplay-y because of that? I don't think so. Also, comparing Real Time combat with minigames is a bit too exaggerated. It's just another form of combat compared to turn based. It can be based completely on character skill [Even Diablo is], with only a minimal amount of twitching required, or even none. A pause effect in RT games also adds to that. You don't need to have quick reflexes when there's a pause button. It's almost like turn based, and, most importantly, completely character based.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

be that as it may, if we're gonna get another year and a half of this, i'd rather someone's opinion fall outside of 'wanting to jackhammer their cock down todd howard's throat in a fit of passionate rage'.

True, but some criteria should be applied, no? Or would you rather welcome anyone who says "TB sucks!"?

For the record, I've never said "TB sucks." If somebody else said it, then I disagree. I like TB and I think it's even madatory for some games. I just don't think that TB is mandatory for fallout or roleplaying at large.

And again, when bethesda screws up fallout I don't think people are going to point to the fact that it's realtime and say "That's it! everything else was spot-on, but that damned realtime aspect killed it!."

As far as realtime roleplaying being more advanced than turnbased roleplaying. It is. It took thinking, savy, and tech more advanced than what came before to make realtime roleplaying a reality. Until the computer came along Roleplaying as a game HAD to be turnbased and it was a trend that continued until theory caught up to the tech.

Advanced doesn't mean superior. And advancement leading to other options doesn't invalidate the past. But faulting people for using the new options, just because they're not the old options is what I have the most problems with.

I've made it clear that it's not a big deal to me, and why it's not a big deal. Agreeing or disagreeing depends entirely on you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Who the fuck are you to pass judgement on opinion? You may agree or disagree with me. That's your right as a person capable of forming your own opinions. But to pass judgement on my opinion, of all things, based on nothing more than your opinion is just so far beyond fair and just that I don't even know where to begin.

Really? If someone says "I think that Earth is flat!", is it some dumb shit or an opinion? Would I have the right to pass judgement or should I respect this person's right to come up with something stupid? Well, same here.

This is a forum for discussion, if your position and opinion is the correct one all you have to do is prove it and I'll submit. Failing that, I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as anybody else.

Nobody is taking away your right to have an opinion. Feel free to stick around and post more.

 

[Human Shield]

I still don't think that the combat system is really important for rating the game an Action-RPG or not. Sure, RT might be more actiony than TB. But is it less roleplay-y because of that? I don't think so.

It would have to be. It what way does it support RPG design? TB and Phase based support RPG design, how does RT? I would said it doesn't, it supports action design.

Also, comparing Real Time combat with minigames is a bit too exaggerated. It's just another form of combat compared to turn based. It can be based completely on character skill [Even Diablo is], with only a minimal amount of twitching required, or even none. A pause effect in RT games also adds to that. You don't need to have quick reflexes when there's a pause button. It's almost like turn based, and, most importantly, completely character based.

Is isn't just about combat it is about weather something supports an RPG design, in which tetris mini-games don't. It doesn't just matter if something is based on character stats it is how those character stats interface with the player. You could watch a generated movie (wow no twitching required) in which success is based on character stats but the player has to play something and gameplay that the system creates is important. Units in RTS games have stats, FPS has virtual stats, it is how you interact with the game that is important.

RT doesn't add any depth to RPG mechanics (and hasn't in its history), it moves them to either a twitch approach or a hands-off approach both degrading RPG design.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Everyone's happy with "illiterate"? It's a thinking man's dumbfuck.

 

[mister lamat]

so they should avoid real-time because they have yet to develop a system which you define as good or deep?

burying the abstraction into seamless mechanics is one of the more exciting paths crpg development can take.

 

[Section8]

As far as realtime roleplaying being more advanced than turnbased roleplaying. It is. It took thinking, savy, and tech more advanced than what came before to make realtime roleplaying a reality. Until the computer came along Roleplaying as a game HAD to be turnbased and it was a trend that continued until theory caught up to the tech.

Advanced doesn't mean superior. And advancement leading to other options doesn't invalidate the past.

Well in the end, we're talking about design, and a design that uses more advanced technology is not in itself more advanced. I could strap a jet engine to my car, and it would be "more advanced" than a Sopwith Camel. I know which one is more airworthy, and therefore better at its intended purpose. So in that respect, the design of a Sopwith Camel is more advanced, because it uses aerodynamic techniques that my car + jet doesn't.

Or alternately, a guy who tries to club his enemy with a H&K G11 - while the enemy shoots him with a flintlock - is using less advanced combat techniques, despite the more advanced hardware.

But faulting people for using the new options, just because they're not the old options is what I have the most problems with.

So where have you encountered this reaction? There's plenty of arguments as to why TB is superior within the context of Fallout, and plenty of concessions that TB/RT are different preferences with their own pros and cons.

 

[mister lamat]

both of those examples are of end users trying to appropriate mechanics of other tools and devices to suit a need or want. can't do that with a video game really, outside of a design kit which the game will probably ship with.

if people wanted to play ring toss with the discs because it's 'omfg real-time' you'd have something approaching a point.

 

[JarlFrank]

so they should avoid real-time because they have yet to develop a system which you define as good or deep?

burying the abstraction into seamless mechanics is one of the more exciting paths crpg development can take.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Real Time is seamless, it doesn't involve waiting for the others to end their turns, or for the others to wait for you. It can also be good for roleplaying, as well as turn-based can be. I'll think about an example later, but RT can be good for roleplaying, depending on the context and on what is happening currently. Some things are better done in TB, some better in RT.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Everyone's happy with "illiterate"? It's a thinking man's dumbfuck.

I'd rather aquire the titles I've justly earned. If you feel the need to brand me, at least be clever about it.

 

[mister lamat]

there needs to be a 'heretic' tag for those who don't speak with 'the one voice'.

 

[elander_]

I think they should have a mix. Birds eye camera interchangeable with first person camera and TB interchangeable with RT. Problem solved and everyone is happy. The problem would be balancing the game so to make it challenging but still not frustrating while playing in both modes.

This has nothing to do with being more advanced. TB and RT play in different ways. It's like discussing what is more advanced if Football or Monopoly. One good reason to dumbfuck someone. :twisted:

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Who the fuck are you to pass judgement on opinion? You may agree or disagree with me. That's your right as a person capable of forming your own opinions. But to pass judgement on my opinion, of all things, based on nothing more than your opinion is just so far beyond fair and just that I don't even know where to begin.

Really? If someone says "I think that Earth is flat!", is it some dumb shit or an opinion? Would I have the right to pass judgement or should I respect this person's right to come up with something stupid? Well, same here.

This is a forum for discussion, if your position and opinion is the correct one all you have to do is prove it and I'll submit. Failing that, I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as anybody else.

Nobody is taking away your right to have an opinion. Feel free to stick around and post more.

It depends doesn't it? What if he could prove or at least logicly illustrate the possiblity that the world is flat.

One aspect of string theory is that what we consider reality and totality is only a dimensional slice of true existence. In essense, everything you think has depth and definition really just exist on the flat face of a slice of existence.

Now to most people, that seems crazy. And still could be crazy, but to the theorist hoping to one day prove that it's correct, it's an opinion based on established possiblity.

So your man with the flat world, may have a reason for thinking so. Hear him out, counter with your own opinions, and try not to pass judgement on the guy that doesn't share your opinion about every goddamned thing.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

there needs to be a 'heretic' tag for those who don't speak with 'the one voice'.

I'd up for that.

 

[Volourn]

L0L VD cries again because someone doesn't suck his dick.

The Codex: Where You Agree With VD Or else... eventually, anyone who disagrees with VD will be Dumbfucked.

That's cool. VD has to use what little power he has in this world.

Welcome to the Ranks of the True, Mr. Van Buren.

The idea that a game - be it FO or anything else - wil automatically suck becuase iot's not Tb is dumb. The reverse is true as well.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

I think they should have a mix. Birds eye camera interchangeable with first person camera and TB interchangeable with RT. Problem solved and everyone is happy. The problem would be balancing the game so to make it challenging but still not frustrating while playing in both modes.

This has nothing to do with being more advanced. TB and RT play in different ways. It's like discussing what is more advanced if Football or Monopoly. One good reason to dumbfuck someone. :twisted:

People have already stipulated on both sides that they play differently. The real question has been,or at least one of the real questions, does it make it make it invalid as Fallout or even as an RPG at large.

Reading is fundamental.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Everyone's happy with "illiterate"? It's a thinking man's dumbfuck.

I'd rather aquire the titles I've justly earned.

That would be the dumbfuck tag, but I decided to give you a bit of a break.

If you feel the need to brand me, at least be clever about it.

It's a standard tag. I was too lazy to design a custom tag for you.

there needs to be a 'heretic' tag for those who don't speak with 'the one voice'.

Like I said, prove this his quotes represent a valid opinion, and I'll gladly accept that I was wrong and remove the tag. Of course, posting "clevar" comments from your corner is much easier than actually proving something, so I'm not surprised that you didn't take the opportunity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

L0L VD cries again because someone doesn't suck his dick.

The Codex: Where You Agree With VD Or else... eventually, anyone who disagrees with VD will be Dumbfucked.

That's cool. VD has to use what little power he has in this world.

Welcome to the Ranks of the True, Mr. Van Buren.

The idea that a game - be it FO or anything else - wil automatically suck becuase iot's not Tb is dumb. The reverse is true as well.

Really? I thought that we mostly disagreed and often argued to death, Volly. Have I ever given you a tag? Anyway, I posted MVB's quotes. Prove that his opinion is valid and I'll apologize. Or keep posting this crap. Your call.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

L0L VD cries again because someone doesn't suck his dick.

The Codex: Where You Agree With VD Or else... eventually, anyone who disagrees with VD will be Dumbfucked.

That's cool. VD has to use what little power he has in this world.

Welcome to the Ranks of the True, Mr. Van Buren.

The idea that a game - be it FO or anything else - wil automatically suck becuase iot's not Tb is dumb. The reverse is true as well.

I accept my initiation into the ranks. Peace and blessings be with us.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

L0L VD cries again because someone doesn't suck his dick.

The Codex: Where You Agree With VD Or else... eventually, anyone who disagrees with VD will be Dumbfucked.

That's cool. VD has to use what little power he has in this world.

Welcome to the Ranks of the True, Mr. Van Buren.

The idea that a game - be it FO or anything else - wil automatically suck becuase iot's not Tb is dumb. The reverse is true as well.

Really? I thought that we mostly disagreed and often argued to death, Volly. Have I ever given you a tag? Anyway, I posted MVB's quotes. Prove that his opinion is valid and I'll apologize. Or keep posting this crap. Your call.

The quotes you posted were not selfevident "dumbness" you self-righteous jackass.

It was your opinion that you thought they were, and you're welcome to that opinion. But you didn't prove anything ... other than you have a problem being just and fair.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Everyone's happy with "illiterate"? It's a thinking man's dumbfuck.

I'd rather aquire the titles I've justly earned.

That would be the dumbfuck tag, but I decided to give you a bit of a break.

If you feel the need to brand me, at least be clever about it.

It's a standard tag. I was too lazy to design a custom tag for you.

there needs to be a 'heretic' tag for those who don't speak with 'the one voice'.

Like I said, prove this his quotes represent a valid opinion, and I'll gladly accept that I was wrong and remove the tag. Of course, posting "clevar" comments from your corner is much easier than actually proving something, so I'm not surprised that you didn't take the opportunity.

The burden is on the assertive position. It is your assertion that my opinions are "dumb." It is your burden to prove it so, not mine or any one else's to prove that they are not.

Innocent until proven guilty, has a nice ring to it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It depends doesn't it? What if he could prove or at least logicly illustrate the possiblity that the world is flat.

That would be a different story, wouldn't it? The thing with you is that you've said quite a lot, but proven very little.

...and try not to pass judgement on the guy that doesn't share your opinion about every goddamned thing.

I don't. Take Volourn, for example. He showed up here when the Codex was at its "Bio trashing" peak. Volourn argued, debated, and disagreed with anyone and everyone, but, unlike you, he did it so skillfully that his intelligence was never questioned and his position, even though it was completely different from what most people here thought, was respected by most.

The quotes you posted were not selfevident "dumbness"

Prove it.

you self-righteous jackass.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

But you didn't prove anything ...

I didn't believe that I had to, but since you insist, I will do so shortly.

 

[Volourn]

"Really? I thought that we mostly disagreed and often argued to death, Volly. Have I ever given you a tag?"

Nha. You just banned me. Yeah, much more mature way to handle disagreeement, right?

"Anyway, I posted MVB's quotes. Prove that his opinion is valid and I'll apologize."

No, you wouldn't. His opinion is valid. All opinions are valid ones. Even dumb ones. How many times have people posted that NWN sucks because it's not BG? Quite a few. That's a very dumb reason to hate agame yet you would NEVER Dumbfuck someone for hating on NWN because you share that opinion.

It's hilarious that you want me to 'prove' his opinion is valid when you know thats likely impossible since the idea of his opinion being valid or not is pretty much opinion anyways.

That's the problem. It's not the dumbness that's the reason for him being Dumbfucked. That's the excuse. The reason is his opinion is not agreed upon by the Codex Hive and espicially not by you. Or keep posting this crap. Your call.


Anyways, I'll let you get the last word if you wnat. I have more important I N T E R N E T D R A M A to dela with today. L0L