Interview BG2 nostalgia Q&A at GameBanshee

[corvax]

Horrendous combat, way too much of it, respawning enemies.

That's pretty much the same as flaming the great/archaic graphics in a game.

I don't think so. Consider Fallout, Fallout 2, Torment all with much less, more evenly distributed combat. All those RPGs are from the same time-period with some preceding BG2, others even BG. Shit even Diablo had a smoother system with no fucking respawning!

Yes, the pause system is pretty lame, but the battles are still interesting and challengin. Especially, mage battles: with Kangaxx, Cowled Wizards, etc.

And what the hell did you expect looting the crypt? Fucking talking zombies that could be persuaded into surrendering?

The battles may be interesting thanks to the story which I said was a positive but all the fun is taken out by the mechanics, respawning, save & load method of fighting. Honestly can anyone (no D&D buffs) fucking say that they finished BG2 without plenty of savig and reloading. I rarely had to reload in Fallout or Torment.

And I'm not talking about convincing zombies (although it would be a cool option to control them by other means than turn undead) just that it's way too many of them. Too much combat just to get to the tomb and then when you get out you have to fight the same fucking spiders.

 

[Atrokkus]

Honestly can anyone (no D&D buffs) fucking say that they finished BG2 without plenty of savig and reloading. I rarely had to reload in Fallout or Torment.

Well, I found only 3 battles extreemely challenging to the point of constant save-loading:
1. against illithids in a secret chamber in Athkathla sewers.
2. early raiding of vampire crypts, especailly without paladin in party.
3. Kangaxx

Other than that, it wasn't a cakewalk, of course, but still did not make me save-load much (well, 1 time maximum).

It's all in tactics and character development.
Of course, I'm quite adept in DnD mechanics, but not an expert. Plus, BG2 uses a simplified version of it, so no special skills are required.

(although it would be a cool option to control them by other means than turn undead)

Well, turn undead is actually a very strong feat if the character is right. It can even control lesser undead.

 

[MarFish]

It doesn't sell. Nobody wants fucking turn based boredome in RPGs these days anymore. It's dead and I hope it stays dead.

And what does that prove exactly? Fable absolutely dick-kicked Jade Empire in sales - it must be a much better game! (To be fair, Fable did have better combat.)

Finally you got it. Sales is what counts.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

It doesn't sell. Nobody wants fucking turn based boredome in RPGs these days anymore. It's dead and I hope it stays dead...
Finally you got it. Sales is what counts.

ToEE sold great by Troika's standards, and their other games had real-time.

 

[Shadowstrider]

Their other titles were Arcanum, a no-name original IP, and a title based on a moderately known campaign setting created by White Wolf.

ToEE sold on the Dungeons & Dragons recognition, and very little else following the preliminary sales. The D&D logo alone pretty much gauranteed AT LEAST moderately large sales figures at launch. The combat models had very little to do with the lack of sales, what killed their sales was a lack of good marketing (arcanum) and a lack of product support (every Troika product, ever).

Not to mention Bloodlines' and Arcanum had pretty sucktastic realtime combat, overall. Especially poor in the balance department.

Honestly, the combat models had little to do with the lack of sales of all Troika's games, or the amount of sales in general.

 

[Second Chance]

Just a few comments:

1) It's interesting that Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager is mentioned. It's up to today one of the only two pc rpgs that I feel had the potential to be better than Ultima 7 (the other being Faery Tale Adventures 2: Halls of the Dead). The game was unfortunately ruined by hideously, never patched, bugs.

2) Turn based combat is not dead. ToEE had the 2nd best combat system I've ever seen, it was unfortunately ruined by a globally sub-par and booooooring game. I shudder to think what Troika could have done with that engine and a more interesting module -- at least less linear and with less go fetch quests; it felt a lot like the BG series.

3) The BG series: I'll praise BG for doing one thing. In the dark age of RPGs, when not a decent RPG was being released (except Fallout of course, but Fallout wasn't a game for the masses) it gave players a new faith in RPGs. For all those that praise BG1 or BG2, go play the great RPGs of the 90s.

I feel like laughing every time someone goes "BG1 (or 2) was the best RPG ever" when they haven't tried any of the classics.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

It's interesting that Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager is mentioned. It's up to today one of the only two pc rpgs that I feel had the potential to be better than Ultima 7 (the other being Faery Tale Adventures 2: Halls of the Dead).

Are you shitting me? Faery Tale Adventures was a horrible game, 2 was a little better but they're nowhere near Ultima 7.

 

[EEVIAC]

Finally you got it. Sales is what counts.

This is a bumblefuck comment if I've ever heard one. Sales mean jack shit. Profit is important, gross sales are meaningless if you can't make enough money to cover expenditure. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about and you're a measly, piddling troll to boot. You could have at least used "no free rides" or some such, you fucking maggot.

 

[Atrokkus]

For all those that praise BG1 or BG2, go play the great RPGs of the 90s.

What games exactly do you have in mind?

 

[bryce777]

Don't worry, it will probably never come out. Atari is on its last legs. if it does, it will be half finished, and half baked, and kill of the series utterly, as atari is so famous for.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I think the stars aligned for Baldur’s Gate II in a way that they probably won’t again. We had a finished engine that allowed us to focus on content rather than basic functionality.

Woe! When will game developers learn? Stick to the same engine and focus on better content. You don't need a new engine with every game. Maybe every third one but not every single one.

 

[Talorc]

Damn right!!

If Atari had some fricking brains, there would be some developer right now (Troika, Obsidian, whoever) hard at work putting the finishing touches on all the content they had been adding to the ToEE engine over the last 2 years since it was released.

Realistically, you couldnt call it BG III as the switch to Turn based would turn off fans of that series.

But it would make a damn fine D&D PC RPG release, guaranteed to sell. Not having to develop the engine would keep the costs down.

But the brainiacs at Atari have now gone 2 years without releasing a "core" CRPG product for what is easily one of their most important Intelectual Properties. With Neverwinter Nights 2 beng the only D&D RPG product announced as in development, it will be at least another 12 - 18 months before they get one released!! 3 to 4 years without a "core" product release from a key franchise.....

No wonder their company is in the shitter.

 

[Second Chance]

It's interesting that Dark Sun 2: Wake of the Ravager is mentioned. It's up to today one of the only two pc rpgs that I feel had the potential to be better than Ultima 7 (the other being Faery Tale Adventures 2: Halls of the Dead).

Are you shitting me? Faery Tale Adventures was a horrible game, 2 was a little better but they're nowhere near Ultima 7.

Read my words. I said "had the potential". Faery Tale Adventures 2t had a great engine and a great combat system. Unfortunately, the story was terrible (was actually an unfinished game, the company went bankrupt before they could finish it).

 

[Second Chance]

For all those that praise BG1 or BG2, go play the great RPGs of the 90s.

What games exactly do you have in mind?

Well depends if you prefer dungeon crawlers or storyline-RPGs, but for starters, I'd recommend:

Ultima 4-7
Darklands
Quest for Glory 1-4
Wizardry 6-7

etc

 

[Volourn]

'Ultima 4-7
Darklands
Quest for Glory 1-4
Wizardry 6-7"

Ultima - awesome

Darklands - crap

Quest for Glory - awful

Wizardry - solid hack n slash; not much role-playing at all

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

But the brainiacs at Atari have now gone 2 years without releasing a "core" CRPG product for what is easily one of their most important Intelectual Properties. With Neverwinter Nights 2 beng the only D&D RPG product announced as in development, it will be at least another 12 - 18 months before they get one released!! 3 to 4 years without a "core" product release from a key franchise.....

No wonder their company is in the shitter.

Given the modularity of ToEE's engine, they could have had a few more games released with that engine by now. There's also that cancelled Ravenloft game that Reflexive was working on that would have been out a year ago or so. Neither of those would have cost much to develop since both would have used pre-existing engines.

Instead of those, Atari decided to "not to saturate the market" with D&D products because they were making Dragonshard and Demonstone.

It's one thing not to pollute a product by oversaturating the market with it. However, when you're cancelling "core products", as you put it, with things like an RTS game and a crappy console adventure game, that's just fucking up.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

For all those that praise BG1 or BG2, go play the great RPGs of the 90s.

What games exactly do you have in mind?

Well depends if you prefer dungeon crawlers or storyline-RPGs, but for starters, I'd recommend:

Ultima 4-7
Darklands
Quest for Glory 1-4
Wizardry 6-7

etc

Um, what about Fallout or Planescape Torment?

FAKE EDIT: Volourn hit the mark on it, aside from Darklands being crap. Darklands ruled.