Game News Big Huge RPG is Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning

[Lesifoere]

"True greatness = Being art = Having high literary/artistic merit" as opposed to expertly done mediocrity.
Are you arguing semantics because you've nothing to say? Do you really think that "artistic merit" is a much less arbitrary term than "true greatness"?

You were the one who mentioned "true greatness," dear boy. You're still beating around the bush, by the way, as to what measures you use to judge "true greatness" (can't type this phrase with a straight face unless I put quotation marks around it), because "being art" is just about as useless. Are you waffling because you've got nothing of value to say? Or did you run out of material with which to attempt trolling me? I grade you Skyway-. "Oh, well, authors you like are shitty too! Nya~" That'd have been much more honest and quicker, you know.

On which note, I can't believe you brought up Dick, of all people. He had a few very remarkable novels with fantastic concepts and I loved Ubik and The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, but read a few of them back to back and holy shit copypasta marathon. The same characters--essentially the same everyman loser protagonist--over and over and over. A lot of his novels, and he did have a ridiculously lengthy list of them, were just terrible; even fans of his would agree. Many of his short stories are nothing short of execrable. Not even "expertly done" mediocrity. Just mediocrity period.

It just seemed strange that you resort to "extreme" judgements when speaking about books you don't like while insta-pedalling back and resorting to "pretentious terms are pretentious" nitpicking defence when we started to talk about your favourite writers. I was just curious to see such an inconsistency in your opinion.

Oh right, calling Salvatore shitty is very extreme; why, almost as extreme a judgment as "FO3 is shit." Casting value judgment on writers like him doesn't even have to do with not liking them, and everything with them being objectively terrible. I'm even willing to define "objectively terrible" (to wit: the wikipedia summary I quoted or possibly The Last Airbender).

VanderMeer's nowhere near my favorite writer, sorry. I was recommending someone sf/f authors that are much, much superior to the genre average and produce things more interesting than Tolkien and dummies who regurgitate his already regurgitated material.

Peake and Noon, two names which didn't come up yet. Both great writers. Without Peake there'd be no Mieville or Vandermeer,

Actually true, or at least Mieville cited Peake as a major inspiration.

 

[Gosling]

"True greatness = Being art = Having high literary/artistic merit" as opposed to expertly done mediocrity.
Are you arguing semantics because you've nothing to say? Do you really think that "artistic merit" is a much less arbitrary term than "true greatness"?

You were the one who mentioned "true greatness," dear boy. You're still beating around the bush, by the way, as to what measures you use to judge "true greatness" (can't type this phrase with a straight face unless I put quotation marks around it), because "being art" is just about as useless.

Why, at this stage I mostly use my good taste, experience and knowledge to determine what's great. Are you really expecting an all-encompassing short list of things that I think make a book a literary achievement? I'm sorry, but I have to dissapoint you.

Are you waffling because you've got nothing of value to say? Or did you run out of material with which to attempt trolling me?

Are you using empty rhethorics because you've got nothing of value to say? Or did you run out of material with which to attempt trolling me? (Remember: I really expect you to answer these two questions)

"Oh, well, authors you like are shitty" That'd have been much more honest and quicker, you know.

You've figured out what I was trying to say all along only by now? Is it because "redding is teh hard" may I ask?

On which note, I can't believe you brought up Dick, of all people. He had a few very remarkable novels with fantastic concepts and I loved Ubik and The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, but read a few of them back to back and holy shit copypasta marathon. The same characters--essentially the same everyman loser protagonist--over and over and over. A lot of his novels, and he did have a ridiculously lengthy list of them, were just terrible; even fans of his would agree. Many of his short stories are nothing short of execrable. Not even "expertly done" mediocrity. Just mediocrity period.

Can't but agree with you. Your point being? Yes, he wrote a lot of mediocre stuff, does it cancel the originality of his better works?

It just seemed strange that you resort to "extreme" judgements when speaking about books you don't like while insta-pedalling back and resorting to "pretentious terms are pretentious" nitpicking defence when we started to talk about your favourite writers. I was just curious to see such an inconsistency in your opinion.

Oh right, calling Salvatore shitty is very extreme; why, almost as extreme a judgment as "FO3 is shit." Casting value judgment on writers like him doesn't even have to do with not liking them, and everything with them being objectively terrible. I'm even willing to define "objectively terrible" (to wit: the wikipedia summary I quoted or possibly The Last Airbender).

So, "objectively terrible" low standards exist on your scale. Is there a clear definition of higher standards you could give me? If there isn't any why do you ask me to give you one?

VanderMeer's nowhere near my favorite writer, sorry. I was recommending someone sf/f authors that are much, much superior to the genre average and produce things more interesting than Tolkien and dummies who regurgitate his already regurgitated material.

Who are your favourite writers by the way? (Promise not to shit on them)



Edit: multi-quote reply, kkk points -1, postcount +1

 

[Saxon1974]

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out, not excited about action combat but like the open world comment.

I like Salvatore's books, enjoyed them quite a bit. Fantasy novels are like music, it all depends on what you like and everyone has a different opinion.

I think Rolston was lead designer on Morrowind and not Oblivion wasn't he? I thought I read he worked on Oblivion but did not have as much input as he did on Morrowind, so liking Morrowind more than Oblivion I have hopes for this game.

 

[Lesifoere]

Wow, we're both sounding like VD. This is horrible.

You've figured out what I was trying to say all along only by now? Is it because "redding is teh hard" may I ask?

I was entertaining the idea of you not trolling (which you... just now said you weren't), but then again this kind of discussions always turns into a cycle of "OH YEAH? AUTHORS YOU LIKE ARE SHITTY TOO!" Very like corridor shooters. Banal shit bor--

Can't but agree with you. Your point being? Yes, he wrote a lot of mediocre stuff, does it cancel the originality of his better works?

Are we talking about "true greatness"? Because I'm hard-pressed to call a writer whose mediocre output eclipsed his excellent one by a lot. Even the really fantastic works of his were very similar in terms of stock types. Sure, it doesn't cancel out his better works, but you seem to demand a standard of excellence from authors you don't like while applying a different standard to authors you do.

So, "objectively terrible" low standards exist on your scale. Is there a clear definition of higher standards you could give me? If there isn't any why do you ask me to give you one?

Because you brought up extremely high standards, so it's logical to ask you?
And of course the low extremes are easier to define, if only because a lot more examples of it exist and you can find emerging patterns: objectively terrible writers have a lot in common across the board (tenuous grasp of prose, juvenile ideas, cliches, etc), whereas the good ones don't really and are much more diverse in styles, themes, narrative experiments. Just look at Salvatore, Greenwood, Eddings, Brooks, Jordan, Goodkind, Paolini. Lots of similarities and not just due to genre.

Who are your favourite writers by the way? (Promise not to shit on them)

The aforementioned KJ Bishop, Catherynne M. Valente, Tanith Lee (who's got to be commended if only for sheer range), Geoff Ryman, Tricia Sullivan. There're many authors whose specific works I like but much of whose output I'd sooner drop at a secondhand store or burn than read, so I can't call them my favorites. Exhibit A: Zelazny, Vance, Moorcock. Even le Guin falls into this category.

 

[GarfunkeL]

If you hated Dark Elf or Icewind Dale trilogies, be glad that you haven't touched his later FR-books. They get constantly worse.

Also, Salvatore didn't invent Drow-society, that honor probably belongs to Ed Greenwood who wrote up the original Forgotten Realms setting (Sword Coast and Sea of Stars, basically), unless he was already ripping them off from somewhere else.

 

[denizsi]

I really don't mind aRPGs once in a while. The problem is that the fucking genre is fucking full of those

Yes it is and not one where action actually felt good has been made since Daggerfall (for its time). Gothic 1&2 were ok. The rest is absolute shit. If they end up the ones to pull it off well, well, kudos to them.

 

[Gragt]

She thinks she's an expert on literary pros, forgetting writing is an art form and like all art forms it's purely subjective. I like Jackson Pollock paintings because they remind me of the stains on my bedroom walls and ceiling so bite me.

Ah, fuck you with your "art is subjective". We bring a part of subjectivity to it but art is mostly objective, i.e. what you like has no influence on the quality of a work.

Trolling or not, fuck you.

 

[Gosling]

Wow, we're both sounding like VD. This is horrible.

The discussion would need even more "Care to elaborate?" replies for that.

I was entertaining the idea of you not trolling (which you... just now said you weren't), but then again this kind of discussions always turns into a cycle of "OH YEAH? AUTHORS YOU LIKE ARE SHITTY TOO!" Very like corridor shooters. Banal shit bor--

I haven't decided myself yet. But what troll would admit to trolling anyway? In fact I'd love to play an RPG in the Bas-Lag setting, or maybe Swainston's Fourlands setting (if you woldn't have to fight endless swarms of darkspawn insectoids DA style).

Are we talking about "true greatness"? Because I'm hard-pressed to call a writer whose mediocre output eclipsed his excellent one by a lot. Even the really fantastic works of his were very similar in terms of stock types. Sure, it doesn't cancel out his better works, but you seem to demand a standard of excellence from authors you don't like while applying a different standard to authors you do.

I was not calling Dick a truly great (TM) writer. I was just pointing out that being original is nothing new in the genre. (And I think Burroughs is shit for that matter, but let's not argue about it)

Talking of mediocre output a lot of SF writers also used to write really sleazy porn to earn some extra cash: Robert Silverberg, Harlan Ellison, Avram Davidson (I wish I still had his The Phoenix and the Mirror on my shelf) to name a few. I wouldn't be surprised if Dick did it too.

And of course the low extremes are easier to define

I actually agree. But it's more interesting to argue about less obviously shitty books. Though we didn't have much of an argument in that regard really.

 

[Drakron]

... unless he was already ripping them off from somewhere else.

Not ripping off but who created the Dark Elves was the late Gary Gygax, they first shown up in 1st Edition 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual under the Elf entry and in the 1981 G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King module.

I have no idea if Ed Greenwood put the Drow in FR, he likely did considering Shadowdale history.

 

[Volourn]

Salvatore didn't createb them, but he cetrainly is the reason for their popularity in the subsequent backlash towards them. People claim drizzt is unoriginal even though he actuallyn isn't.

Salvatore did a very good fleshing out drow society. before him, they were nothing more than another monster in the monster manual that players could kill. Also, thanot to him, the Ream's Underdark setting was also expanded.

 

[denizsi]

Talking of mediocre output a lot of SF writers also used to write really sleazy porn to earn some extra cash: Robert Silverberg, Harlan Ellison, Avram Davidson (I wish I still had his The Phoenix and the Mirror on my shelf) to name a few. I wouldn't be surprised if Dick did it too.

I don't think an OC like him could possibly write porn with any market appeal even if he wanted to.

 

[Lesifoere]

Wow, we're both sounding like VD. This is horrible.

The discussion would need even more "Care to elaborate?" replies for that.

Care to elaborate?

I haven't decided myself yet. But what troll would admit to trolling anyway? In fact I'd love to play an RPG in the Bas-Lag setting, or maybe Swainston's Fourlands setting (if you woldn't have to fight endless swarms of darkspawn insectoids DA style).

Mieville used to play pen and paper! There's an adventuring party in Perdido Street Station that's sort of an lol at the expense of adventuring parties in RPGs. Or possibly a poke at sword and sorcery.

I actually agree. But it's more interesting to argue about less obviously shitty books. Though we didn't have much of an argument in that regard really.

Care to elabo--

It's not quite the same.

People claim drizzt is unoriginal even though he actuallyn isn't.

Elric... of Melnibone? Bueller? Hello?

 

[flabbyjack]

publisher THQ

moar shit plz

 

[Andhaira]

You know if this means the game will have good in game lore and history, with plenty of books to read then I am all for it.

The game mechanics better be up to snuff though.

 

[nomask7]

Avram Davidson (I wish I still had his The Phoenix and the Mirror on my shelf)

Easy to find for a few dollars. Use bookfinder.com or some such.

Davidson's ouvre is one of those common combinations of rent-payment work and stuff written because it's the stuff you want to write. The former doesn't invalidate the latter, although sometimes it manages to bury it. Obviously, "Vergil in Averno" and "The Scarlet Fig" belong to the latter category.

Let's pretend that unpublished works don't exist, or that they aren't likely to contain the most interesting books ever written.

 

[circ]

Elric... of Melnibone? Bueller? Hello?

I wouldn't make that comparison as Elric is considerably more complex than Drizzt. And besides, Elric is hardly good. Anti-hero at times maybe, but not evil turned to good like Drizzt.

 

[mondblut]

Salvatore did a very good fleshing out drow society. before him, they were nothing more than another monster in the monster manual that players could kill. Also, thanot to him, the Ream's Underdark setting was also expanded.

There is nothing in Menzoberranzan which wasn't already explored in Gygax' Erelhei-Cinlu.

Salvatore just added massive emo butthurt to evoke sympathies of fat goth teens.

 

[Volourn]

"not evil turned to good like Drizzt."

Except Drizzt was never really evil.

 

[Rohit_N]

Screens and teaser:
http://kotaku.com/5594132/first-reckoni ... g/gallery/

 

[hoverdog]

http://content.reckoningthegame.com/sit ... nshot4.jpg

fuck yeah, a 5-ton sledgehammer!

 

[circ]

This motherfucking game is now officially XTREME! (and pretty awesome too at that)

 

[Turjan]

http://content.reckoningthegame.com/sites/default/files/screenshots/reckoning_screenshot4.jpg

fuck yeah, a 5-ton sledgehammer!

The one in the trailer also looks ridiculously huge - and completely weightless.

 

[Elhoim]

In before Kingdoms of Amaturd.

 

[Elzair]

"Literary merit" is a much more neutral term. "True greatness" is pompous and aggrandizing, and a phrase I only see wannabe-to-mediocre academics or, yes, pretentious wankers use.

Try not to dodge the question: how do you define "true greatness"?

Are you by any chance trying to tell me that all RPGs books are good for what they are?

Redding is teh hard, right? Just a few posts ago I was pointing out that saying everything is subjective is fucking dumb.

You want to know my definition? True Greatness stems from producing a work of 'art' that stands the test of time. The Lord of the Rings certainly qualifies considering many fans weren't even born when Tolkien died. I am pretty sure the Lord of the Rings will still be read 100-200 years from now. I cannot say the same thing about any of Mieville's work.

 

[visions]

Not ripping off but who created the Dark Elves was the late Gary Gygax

Dark elves weren't "created" by Gigax, they have their roots in myths/folklore, like many stereotypical fantasy creatures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_elves

Whether in Norse myths the dark elves (svartalv) were essentially the same as dwarves (dvergar) is unclear (afaik) but I'm not sure how important it is anyway, in relation to the origins of fantasy dark elves.

I guess that Gygax knew that in Norse myths there were mentions of "dark elves" and this inspired him to make his dark elves as the evil counterpart to normal elves.