Company News Bioware pop quiz at XBN

[triCritical]

What's laughable is the derision thrown their way for it... probably because Bioware is so successful, I guess.

Successful in the same way a lame superhero movie is successful. Not because you produce anything of quality, or taste.

Well you're still Blizzards bitch...

 

[EEVIAC]

David - how were they being diplomatic and respectfull to Yu Suzuki when they took credit for an idea that wasn't theirs? I mean, its a not a big jump to make: Virtua Fighter -> RT Fighting systems -> Shenmue - the game which uses Virtua Fighter's combat system.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I guess expressing an honest opinion aint cool anymore. Instead, you gotta be politically correct, nice, and pleasant, 'cause you never know who are you going to be sucking up to tomorrow.

Is that meant to be ironic? The alternative, I suppose, is to be cool and make lots of enemies... which I suppose is fine if there was never any hope of you working with anyone anyway, sucking up or no.

No, the alternative is to be honest and telling people what you really think. Warren Spector wouldn't get a heart attack if some other developers criticize one of his games. Maybe he would even think about it and try not to screw Thief 3 up. Just like it would be nice if somebody stops the good doctors before they start claiming that they invented computers and electricity.

As for making enemies and working together thingy, I don't see a big deal there. Do you hate everyone who criticized you? Would you refuse to work with a person who didn't like one of your games?

 

[Volourn]

It depends on how the criticism is given. I seriously doubt BIO would go to someone like Rosh to help imrpove their games, afterall. Rosh is an amusement. When he's not acting like an asylum lunatic he actually makes good points. Unfortunately, he has too much bottled up rage. Must come from a broken home or something.

Tri, reallY? What does that say about your tastes sicne you claim to like BG1? Or the tatstes of others here who like at least one of BIO's games? Weird... I thought you guys were arroagnt enough to beleive you didn't liekc rap games. Hmm..

 

[Rosh]

My bosses will spin away as they please.

And I'll call them as I see them. Lying and pretentious attention whores seems to fit the description.

I didn't claim it wasn't PR at work. That's what the media is all about. What's laughable is the derision thrown their way for it... probably because Bioware is so successful, I guess.

Oooh! Asskissing points! Want to go for giving the bosses a full colonoscopy next?

Besides, if it weren't for BioWare sucking on D&D's tit, you likely wouldn't have a job and BioWare would hardly be as werll known.

Remember that, Exponential Boy.

Care to beat your chest some more, Rosh? You sound so very impressive I feel humbled here making my excuses and all.

So far, you've made yourself into a good sheep and pretty much have proven my point.

Hey, if you feel fine with that, more power to you. I guess even the career urinal scrubber has to come up with some reasoning for their prolonged existance.

The funny thing, and I know you've never been in this position, Exponential Boy, is that people are gruff for a reason. Niceness is blown off. When I'm proven right, it's extra glass to grind in your face. You? You're just another corporate assweasel.

Volourn: You so funny, man! You know those boys' egos are too high to talk to. Let them get back to work on Frankensteining together NWN2. Well, and doing something other than hump on the leg of some license.

 

[Seven]

How many devs have we flamed so far? Can we count the ones that got flamed at V13 and DAC? This would make for an interesting topic of discussion. And yes I know this isn't a flame, it's just a vigorous debate into ethics, the media and such.

 

[triCritical]

I think Dave Gaider is the only dev I flamed. But there no different then any other human being so why should I treat them any differently. I get flamed by my customers all the time.

 

[Volourn]

Your customers torch you. Why are using Internet lingo to describe RL situations?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

My bosses will spin away as they please. I didn't claim it wasn't PR at work. That's what the media is all about. What's laughable is the derision thrown their way for it... probably because Bioware is so successful, I guess.

If they didn't spin, we wouldn't have as much fun as we do. That's the way I look at things. They'll keep on spinning, we'll keep on being jaded and cynical, eeking out a few giggles every so often. After all, this is an entertainment industry, so if you're not having fun, there's no point, right? If you're not having fun playing some games, have fun poking fun at them. Everyone wins and the grass is green all around.

It's a wonderful world.

 

[Dgaider]

If they didn't spin, we wouldn't have as much fun as we do. That's the way I look at things. They'll keep on spinning, we'll keep on being jaded and cynical, eeking out a few giggles every so often. After all, this is an entertainment industry, so if you're not having fun, there's no point, right? If you're not having fun playing some games, have fun poking fun at them. Everyone wins and the grass is green all around.

Sounds great to me. So long as you're not buying into your own propaganda any more than you're buying into ours.

 

[Rosh]

Sounds great to me. So long as you're not buying into your own propaganda any more than you're buying into ours.

Not a problem as long as you can do the same.

 

[Nomad]

Rosh, what is it you do again? I got the impression from some posts in other threads that you're actually involved in the game industry somehow. Can you elaborate? Who do you work for? What is your position? How long have you worked there? What games have you been involved in?

On other topics:

1. Since when is being polite considered ass-kissing? Acceptable conduct in an interview situation is considerably different than 'conversing' on a message board and orders of magnitude different than speaking privately.

2. Saying that you like something is not the same as saying it's the "greatest thing ever". If you actually _read_ what's said, it's hardly even praise at all.

3. If BioWare didn't have D&D... The fact is BioWare _did_ get it and managed to make a few very successful games using it. If you think it was only due to the license, then what's the deal with Troika and ToEE? I could be wrong, but I don't think it's sold as well as BG did in the same amount of time.


N.

 

[Rosh]

Rosh, what is it you do again? I got the impression from some posts in other threads that you're actually involved in the game industry somehow.

Really? *gasp* Shocking news to me! :wink:

1. Since when is being polite considered ass-kissing? Acceptable conduct in an interview situation is considerably different than 'conversing' on a message board and orders of magnitude different than speaking privately.

Free Remedial English Lesson. Click To Learn!

2. Saying that you like something is not the same as saying it's the "greatest thing ever". If you actually _read_ what's said, it's hardly even praise at all.

Actually, I think people are more tipped off on the following:

XBN: Strangely, the game maintained the illusion that the player had freedom...

GZ: That's exactly the disappointment of it, as we saw it. The technical requirements being so high, it probably had to be smaller as a result. So it felt a lot more constrained, a lot more linear, more on a direct path.

Which is ironic, since it really describes a lot about BioWare's design, and probably the source of their high rate of QA suicides. (I joke.)

Then there's also ways in which they won't bother to correct oversights in the questions, instead letting them pass while verbally fellating themselves as usual and still claiming to "push boundaries" when the only credibly advancing thing they've done was to make a GM toolset easier to use. Mind you, I didn't say it was anywhere as competently put together as other toolsets, it was just easier to use.

XBN: Correct. You're putting a real-time fighting engine in Jade Empire, which hasn't been done before in an RPG, has it?

RM: We're always looking to push boundaries in BioWare's RPGs—game size and scope, mixing game genres together, pushing the envelope in story line and character development—and we thought it would be a natural fit for the game we were trying to make with Jade Empire. Jade will have a lot of tactics and depth, and a lot of roleplaying to develop your character, but it will have a real-time combat system.

And, again, I have to chuckle about their remarks regarding Ultima.

3. If BioWare didn't have D&D... The fact is BioWare _did_ get it and managed to make a few very successful games using it. If you think it was only due to the license, then what's the deal with Troika and ToEE? I could be wrong, but I don't think it's sold as well as BG did in the same amount of time.

There's more to history than the last couple of years. Think of things a bit more sequentially, would it hurt? The D&D computer game market was getting a bit stale in that time, and I will not argue that they presented D&D into an appealing package that any moron could sit there and wait for the combat to resolve itself. Fucked up and kludged, yes, but it did appeal. By the "sold" logic, you should start sucking off Blizzard and spurning BioWare.

Bastardize both Fallout (speech system, though half-assed) and Diablo together and flavor it with D&D. Then put Interplay's hype machine behind it, which they needed to since it was their lifeline for awhile.

I might be more impressed if it weren't for the fact that they rode in on someone else's coattails and keep crowing as if they've done anything remarkable other than clone, Frankenstein, and license. Since they sell well, that's indicative of talent and innovation? No, that's indicative of lowest common denominator. Much like AOL.

I will be watching to see how well they do with anything really creative, but then again, with Baldur's Gate, BioWare proved they were good at reusing material, and I don't mean the game mechanics solely.

 

[Nomad]

Okay, if you do work in the industry, why aren't you more specific? It'd add a lot more weight to your comments (without which it currently sounds like 100%, grade-A BS).

Linking to a dictionary site's entry for context gives me the impression that you agree with my comment that being polite isn't ass-kissing and that you use different forms of language to express different things in different situations. If you don't agree, perhaps you can be a little less obtuse.



Ah, so people are PO'd that GZ's negative comments are for the same things which you attribute to BioWare's games. I guess it's a matter of degrees. I haven't played DX2, but I don't recall feeling _too_ terribly constrained in NWN or SW. Yes, I did feel like I was on rails as far as the main plot was concerned, but there was enough freedom (for me) in the side-quests. Of course, I don't generally re-play RPGs anyway, so the lack of an evil path or different paths for different kinds of characters is not obvious to me and has no bearing on how much I enjoy a game.

I really don't see anything wrong with the other quote you mention. They don't say that they _always_ innovate in every way on every game or that JE is the first RPG to have a real-time fighting system. They say that they try to push the boundaries in their games and that JE will _have_ a real-time combat system.

I never said that games that sell more copies are better. You're the one that started the whole "If it wasn't for D&D BioWare..." comment. I'm simply saying that it's more than the license or else Troika would have sold more copies of ToEE. The fact that you're saying timing was also a factor proves my point. BioWare was able to capitalize on their opportunities (license, timing and product) - and that's wrong because...?


N.

 

[Volourn]

BIo's pre D&D games weere not million copy sellers; but they did pretty good business as well. BIO's D&D games end to do better than other company's D&D games. And, their SW game did better than most other SW games. Why can't other companies like Troika 8actuallY8 take advantage of licensed projects as BIO? Why? It's simple. The biggest anti BIO whiners are amongst those who continually purchase their games. People like Tri, SP, VD, and Visceris are amongst these people who either actually like BIO games but won't reallya dmit or are just plain stupid or enjoy suffering sicne they continue to buy BIO shit. Retarded or what?

 

[Vault Dweller]

If BioWare didn't have D&D... The fact is BioWare _did_ get it and managed to make a few very successful games using it. If you think it was only due to the license, then what's the deal with Troika and ToEE?

Why can't other companies like Troika 8actuallY8 take advantage of licensed projects as BIO? Why? It's simple.

It's simple, indeed. Targeting morons and casual games would be the answer. Surely you guys can see the difference between BG2 and Arcanum, real time and turn-based, simplified rules and a faithful adaptation. You can argue that it's still not as good as the real thing, but it's very, very close, and the gap between NWN (the first game) and ToEE rules-wise is huge. Troika's never targeted dumb fucks, at least untill now (we should see about Bloodlines). Even if both Arcanum and ToEE were less buggy, they wouldn't have been hits like BG and NWN.

The biggest anti BIO whiners are amongst those who continually purchase their games.

So, there are, like what, a few hundreds vocal anti-Bio whiners, myself included, who purchase Bio games. In the industry where games success is measured in hundreds thousand sold, I can see how an extra couple of hundred make a big difference.

People like Tri, SP, VD, and Visceris are amongst these people who either actually like BIO games but won't reallya dmit or are just plain stupid or enjoy suffering sicne they continue to buy BIO shit.

We've been there before: good adventures, bad RPGs.

 

[Volourn]

1. Please, don't tell me you believe that Arcanum and espicialy TOEE are "hardcore' 'cause they're not. And, hate to break it you; but making the game playbale by everyone is not nesseccarily targetting morons. Afterall, it was TOEE who wasted 50% of the "word limit" on pain staking rules detail in game. Talk about simplifying things. It'll be like a car having instructions right on the steering wheel. That'd be lame. The only thing TOEE did better than NWN are the rules. And, oh the frogs too. :D TOEE has no exuse not to be a hit. It's a DnD game based on one of the, or the most popular DnD module ever. At least Arcanum had an exuse for not selling more copies - re;atively unknownd eveloper and an unknwon license. TOEE isn't spared that exuse though.

2. That ain't the point. You guys bash the games yet continue to buy them. That's pathetic. That be like me saying that I hate a certain food and continue to buy and eat it. Lameee...

3. If they're "good" games then why do you bash them all the time? You talk; but no evidence to show that you actually like the games. In fact, I've also ehar dyou guys say they'r enot even role-playing game syet they're tlaked about on a HARDCORE (supposedly) rpg site. Sorry, there is no exuse other than not being too bright or enjoying pain to continually buy games from a company you hate. Period.

 

[Transcendent One]

Oh dear here we go again

 

[Volourn]

Thanks for the spam.

 

[Transcendent One]

You're quite welcome. I, unlike some, do not believe in beating dead horses.

 

[Volourn]

Yet you continue you to beat the same point into the ground.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Please, don't tell me you believe that Arcanum and espicialy TOEE are "hardcore' 'cause they're not.

Well, compared to Bio games, they are hardcore, but that wasn't my point. Bio games follow a simple marketing rule: easy, linear, simple rules, simple gameplay, simple storyline, no choices, nothing that would require mental activity except for retarded puzzles here and there. That sells. Arcanum wasn't easy by any standard (i'm talking about complexity of gameplay), didn't look very good comparing to BG, didn't have uber cool license, didn't have familiar setting (generic hero fantasy), etc. It was clear right away that it wouldn't be a hit because people are stupid and prefer something pretty and simple to make them feel good about themselves: Look at me, ma, I'm playing one of them dragons and dungeons game, and I don't even know any rules. I can only imagine their surprise when they picked up ToEE and wents "WTF! Am I suppose to do all that? Where is my Recommended button?"

And, hate to break it you; but making the game playbale by everyone is not nesseccarily targetting morons.

But most of people ARE stupid, that's a scientific fact, I saw that on TV Anyway, making a game playable by everyone requires dumbing a game down to the lowest common mental denominator. That's simple logic. There are a lot of people who've never played DnD games or role-playing games. They are confused by non-linearitry, choices, and lacks of specific "what do I do next" instructions. So, the solution is simple, to make it simple enough that even a casual person who's not really into RPGs (an adventure gamer) would be able to understand. The result: KOTOR (give me a good reason why there are so few feats and skills there), Deus Ex2, Morrowind, etc

Afterall, it was TOEE who wasted 50% of the "word limit" on pain staking rules detail in game. Talk about simplifying things.

And how many people still bitched about rules admitting that they didn't look at the manual? It's a shame though, and I blame the dumb motherfuckers for Bloodlines. Leon said that they learned that sticking with the rules didn't really worked out for them, draw your own conclusions.

TOEE has no exuse not to be a hit. It's a DnD game based on one of the, or the most popular DnD module ever.

Yeah, I betcha that everybody knows that fact. Half of the reviewers embarrass themselves when they talk about dnd stuff, and they suppose to be at least somewhat familiar with the subject. I can only imagine how much casual gamers care about dnd, gygax, and the module.

That ain't the point. You guys bash the games yet continue to buy them. That's pathetic. That be like me saying that I hate a certain food and continue to buy and eat it. Lameee...

I can't speak for everyone, but I got BG1, BG2, and KOTOR. Returned NWN, never played BG2 exp, SoU, HotU. 3 out of 7. Not exactly what I would call "continue to buy".

If they're "good" games then why do you bash them all the time? You talk; but no evidence to show that you actually like the games.

Good adventure games, adventure being a key word of course. Take Bloodlines for example, it may be a decent shooter, but if the rpg part sucks, then nobody is going to care about how awesome it was to cast spellz at people.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

no choices

Someone wasn't paying attention to the games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

no choices

Someone wasn't paying attention to the games.

I must confess that it's possible that I've overlooked some minor details, and being biased, ignored many choices in color coordination. Since I'm open for knowledge, I appreciate your comment, and believe that I'm privileged to listen to the words of the learned. I humbly ask to show me the light and to give me some examples.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Theatrics aside, there are choices on many places. Are they as far-reaching, interesting or detailed as we'd like them to be, or as well done as in other games we like more? No. Hell no. But they're there, regardless. No need to post lenghtly thesis on this one, since anyone that actually played the games should know this. Hell, go to GameFAQs and check FAQs/Walktroughs, as they do this thoroughly. I recommend DSimpson's works.