Black Mesa - legendary vaporware Half-Life remake finally out

[JDR13]

That looks good. I've already played through Black Mesa once, but I'll be happy to do a replay when this is released.

 

[Lemming42]

Just found out, we can actually play a short beta version right now:
https://steamcommunity.com/games/362890/announcements/detail/1613893608676653038

 

[Morgoth]

That soundtrack is seriously good.

 

[Dayyālu]

I played the mod ages ago, and the videos looks good enough that I was tempted by a purchase.

Well, fuck. It's a definite work of love. The amount of detail in the graphics, the small things. The problem is.... the gameplay is middling at best. It's a fairly inferior version of HL2's gunplay (and HL2's gunplay was serviceable and worked mostly thanks to good level design) and the level design tries so hard to ape HL1 without any kind of.... payback? It feels like a shittier version of Doom3 with the most amazing HD graphics you'll ever get for a HL mod. The Xen beta is similar, is gorgeous but it's essentially mediocre. Pretty but lacking skill.

It pains me to admit it, but eeeeeh..... it's not that good. I requested a refund before hitting two hours, bought the old HL1 collection for a buck and installed Echoes, the mod that last year made some waves.

And it pains to me to admit that the guy in Echoes made single handedly a game that plays better, feels better, and even looks better (if we discuss level design and coherency) than Black Mesa. Play that instead.

A pity.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm confused by all the hate Black Mesa is getting in this thread, I thought it was great.

 

[ciox]

Could have been great if they left the sound and mechanics alone, as it is it's just ok, one more way to run through the Half-Life universe.

 

[Dayyālu]

I'm confused by all the hate Black Mesa is getting in this thread, I thought it was great.

I won't argue they tried very hard. But it feels like the mistake many modders make: add a shitton of pretty shit (with piss-poor optimization) without considering that being pretty is not the same as being good. Black Mesa has mediocre gunplay, and many levels are markedly inferior even to HL1's originals. I'll freely admit I haven't played all the paid mod (up until offices before cheating to check Xen) but it feels... off.

It's only mediocre. Not worthy of hatred, merely of "sigh, they could have done it much better".

 

[Lemming42]

What could they change? HL2/Source gunplay is way worse, but it's not like HL1 (on Hard difficulty at least) wasn't also full of bullet-sponge enemies who you have to shoot in the head 10+ times before they finally go down. The guns just felt better and had more satisfying sound and animations. Also, I think HL1 had better marine AI, but other than that and weapon animations, I can't really think of anything the Black Mesa devs could possibly do to improve.

There's a couple of advantages over HL1 - headcrab physics allowing you to smack them out of the air with the crowbar and barnacles actually eating enemies or objects being the obvious improvements.

On the topic of Xen, I played a bit of the beta and the visual design is incredible, but what the fuck is going on with all the shitty power socket puzzles? Everyone made fun of the plug-to-socket puzzles in HL2 but the team seem to have designed all of Xen around them.

 

[Dayyālu]

What could they change? HL2/Source gunplay is way worse, but it's not like HL1 (on Hard difficulty at least) wasn't also full of bullet-sponge enemies who you have to shoot in the head 10+ times before they finally go down. The guns just felt better and had more satisfying sound and animations. Also, I think HL1 had better marine AI, but other than that and weapon animations, I can't really think of anything the Black Mesa devs could possibly do to improve.

You know, you are somewhat right. They sorta fucked themselves because HL2's gunplay doesn't work as well, despite redesigns, in HL1's enviroments. I find HL2's gunplay perfectly serviceable, but it gives its best with more open enviroments than HL1's interiors.

There's a couple of advantages over HL1 - headcrab physics allowing you to smack them out of the air with the crowbar and barnacles actually eating enemies or objects being the obvious improvements.

HL1's Barnacles work perfectly, they merely aren't used as aggressively as they should be. For example, the mod I've quoted before, Echoes, shows an excellent example of use of Barnacles in several locations, particularly when early on you are low on ammo: in one situation you are dumped in a underground parking lot with more than a dozen zombies and precious little handgun ammunition: the entire area is littered by Barnacles both to avoid the player just blitzing through but more importantly to give a good disposal method for the zombies. Maneuvering and killing them all through barnacles without firing a single shot is fun.

A clear example of good design, but again, Echoes is 2018 design and I can't demand Blue Shift or the original HL to be similar.

On the topic of Xen, I played a bit of the beta and the visual design is incredible, but what the fuck is going on with all the shitty power socket puzzles? Everyone made fun of the plug-to-socket puzzles in HL2 but the team seem to have designed all of Xen around them.

Maybe they simply aren't good designers?

 

[Yosharian]

Can you explain exactly why HL2's gunplay isn't as good as HL1's? Because you're saying it like it's obvious and accepted and this is literally the first time I've heard anyone say that

 

[Okagron]

Damn, this is still being worked on. I remember playing this back in 2012 or 2013 and it promised at the end that the Xen levels were coming.

and installed Echoes

Actually took a look at this mod and looks really interesting. Gonna download it.

 

[Dayyālu]

Can you explain exactly why HL2's gunplay isn't as good as HL1's? Because you're saying it like it's obvious and accepted and this is literally the first time I've heard anyone say that

Ahh, you haven't ever read a discussion about Half Life 1/2 on the 'Dex, then. Some people act like Half Life 2 raped their dog and their daughter. Interestingly enough, I do like a lot Half Life 2, and I consider it a great example of level design and of shooter in general. It has variety, an excellent sense of progression and interesting gimmicks to keep the player on his toes, plus good enviromental storytelling and excellent sound/graphic design.

However, if we take out the Gravity Gun from the equation, HL2 suffers from a completely perfunctory arsenal (HtH, Pistol, Magnum, SMG, AR, Shotgun, Crossbow, Rocket Launcher). The Bugbait isn't a weapon per se. The most interesting weaponry from HL2's arsenal are the Python and the Crossbow, and they are sparingly used. And the SMG/pistol/AR honestly lack the good meaty feeling that a good FPS gun should have. The Gravity Gun is a saving grace though, but without it....eeeh.

Furthermore HL2's suffers from a cut on the "alien enemy variety" barely countered by the different zombie breeds and most of the time you fight Combines. The synth are used too sparingly and the over-reliance on set-piece infinite rockets make it insanely cheap, but 90% of the time you'll be fighting Combine soldiers that are , well, too squishy. They have a very interesting AI truth be told, but they die incredibly fast in most cases: it's a testament to HL2's great levels that it still manages to keep the player entertained with varied ambushes/clever spawns.

HL1 doesn't suffer from this: Marines are less flexible than Combines and more scripted, but being a tad more resilient means that they manage to pull off more tricks (so they are more interesting to fight). HL1's Alien bestiary is also more varied than HL2's. Furthermore, the weaponry feels better and we have other toys bar the stock FPS guns.

Again, HL2's is great in my opinion: but the reasons for it being fun aren't its gunplay for sure.

Actually took a look at this mod and looks really interesting. Gonna download it.

Just finished it. A tad scripted in places, but well, it's great. I loved how the guy pretty much made excellent use of enviromental storytelling: you'll understand particularly after the HECU takeover.

 

[DalekFlay]

There's a lot to maybe be critical of about Half-Life 2, but saying it's actual shooting gameplay is worse than the original? What? The weapons are basically the same, but feel much heavier and more powerful thanks to the physics. The enemy tactics are about the same if not better. I don't know what could possibly motivate someone to make that comparison in the negative.

 

[Dayyālu]

There's a lot to maybe be critical of about Half-Life 2,

The only thing I'd flat-out burn out of Half Life 2 is Alyx. For a shitton of reasons (invincible companion, literally built as nerd waifu bait by committee, PLOT RELEVANT by commitee).

but saying it's actual shooting gameplay is worse than the original? What? The weapons are basically the same, but feel much heavier and more powerful thanks to the physics.

The pistol, the SMG and the AR2 aren't particularly "powerful". The shotguns works....well enough. Doom or Quake it ain't.

The enemy tactics are about the same if not better. I don't know what could possibly motivate someone to make that comparison in the negative.

Combine soldiers die often too fast to a competent player to apply any tactics whatsoever. Not saying they should be bullet sponges....

 

[Yosharian]

Perhaps I don't get these criticisms because I always play on the hardest difficulty?

 

[Lemming42]

The HL2 guns all feel incredibly weak to me, even the magnum. The crossbow is the one exception. To this day I have no idea how the fucking SMG got into the final version as it is, it's a terrible weapon.

There's also the fact that enemies don't stagger or really react to being shot in any way (HL1 was more reactive - marines would begin limping to cover, bullsquids would jump in surprise if you attacked them before they'd seen you, houndeyes would whine and flee if shot in the face, etc). The final levels of HL2 before you get the super gravgun are just shit, Overwatch and Combine Elite soldiers just literally eat bullets to the face and keep shooting you regardless, then eventually just flop down dead.

Sound and animations play a big role - for a comparison between the two games, launch them both and just try out the crowbar in each game. HL1's crowbar looks chunky, feels weighty when swung (I know that means nothing but I can't think of a better way to phrase that, hopefully people know what I mean) and the splat sound when hitting an enemy or the clanging sound when hitting metal makes it satisfying to use. HL2's looks dorky, swings like it's made of paper, sounds like it's made of cardboard, and bounces off enemies heads.

The ragdolls might have a lot to answer for, too - HL1's death animations beat enemies limply flopping to the ground any day. Yes, I know if you rush up to people and do the alt-fire on the shotgun right into their face, they go flying.

 

[DalekFlay]

To this day I have no idea how the fucking SMG got into the final version as it is, it's a terrible weapon.

I'll agree with this, but...

There's also the fact that enemies don't stagger or really react to being shot in any way (HL1 was more reactive - marines would begin limping to cover, bullsquids would jump in surprise if you attacked them before they'd seen you, houndeyes would whine and flee if shot in the face, etc). The final levels of HL2 before you get the super gravgun are just shit, Overwatch and Combine Elite soldiers just literally eat bullets to the face and keep shooting you regardless, then eventually just flop down dead.

Sound and animations play a big role - for a comparison between the two games, launch them both and just try out the crowbar in each game. HL1's crowbar looks chunky, feels weighty when swung (I know that means nothing but I can't think of a better way to phrase that, hopefully people know what I mean) and the splat sound when hitting an enemy or the clanging sound when hitting metal makes it satisfying to use. HL2's looks dorky, swings like it's made of paper, sounds like it's made of cardboard, and bounces off enemies heads.

The ragdolls might have a lot to answer for, too - HL1's death animations beat enemies limply flopping to the ground any day. Yes, I know if you rush up to people and do the alt-fire on the shotgun right into their face, they go flying.

This is all nuts to me. The physics in HL2 are what makes the combat feel "heavy" and impactful. When you shotgun a combine soldier or magnum headhshot him, they react much better than anything in HL1. Like I don't even understand how you could make this comparison, it's baffling me right now.

 

[Lemming42]

The combat doesn't feel heavy or impactful at all to me. I singled out the shotgun, magnum and crossbow because they're the weapons where you can feel the physics engine working (as opposed to the pistol, SMG, combine assault rifle, etc) so they stand out as the best weapons in the game, but they still feel sort of pathetic. Maybe it's because the game doesn't consistently give you that physics feedback - if you score a kill with the magnum or shotgun then enemies will ragdoll, but if you don't deal fatal damage they just completely fail to react to the shotgun blast you unloaded into their face. The game could have had enemies be knocked down and have to stand back up, or at least just stagger or recoil or lose their aim when hit in the face with a shotgun, but instead they don't react at all until the player shoots them again at which point they go flying backwards.

Black Mesa has the same problem. Killing enemies with the magnum is satisfying, but on hard difficulty you can hit Vortigaunts right in the eye and they just keep charging their attack. It's a problem with HL1 too but it definitely feels like enemies behave differently at low health, so even though marines don't react to you unloading an MP5 clip into their face, at least they limp off to the medics or call for help.

Since we're talking about the Source engine, Dark Messiah handled physics based combat much better than HL2 - your sword still does basically nothing and enemies laugh it off but they can be staggered with kicks, thrown from ledges (still alive, forcing them to find a way back up to you), knocked down in various ways to allow the player to escape or execute them before they recover, etc.

I've also just remembered SMOD, which added many weapons with physics effects. It's been ages, but there might have been a weapon or two in there which would help me explain my point. There was a shovel weapon which (in addition to great sound and animations) would cause enemies to be violently thrown in the direction the shovel was swung, that could be a good comparison with the vanilla crowbar.

 

[DalekFlay]

I mean, no game back then had great enemy animation reaction to being hit before dying, to my memory. I'm not saying HL2 holds up today on that stuff, I just don't get the negative comparison to the first. Granted I haven't played the first in a loooooong time, so if it had some super advanced tech in that area that even HL2 doesn't have then maybe I forgot it. I doubt it though.

 

[Lemming42]

Have you played the original Soldier of Fortune from 2000? The shotgun is one of the best examples of how to make weapons feel powerful in videogames IMO, but even the shitty glock causes enemies to clutch the area they've been hit in pain, begin limping if they were hit in the leg, drop their weapon if shot in the hand, hop around if shot in the foot, stuff like that. They'd even surrender if they lost their weapon.

I think a few others like Red Faction have enemies stop shooting and play a pain animation for about half a second if hit. Even Doom had enemies stagger if caught in chaingun fire.

HL1 does have the same lack of reaction to being hit as HL2 but many enemies had AI to deal with injuries (running to cover, different movement animations, fleeing), whereas I remember Combine soldiers being reduced to like 1 HP and still just walking confidently towards you as you aim the gun at their head.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yeah again it's just the HL1 comparison I don't get. I agree other games did combat better way before HL2. If HL1 was better in that regard then maybe I just forgot it, we'll see next time I play.

 

[Yosharian]

Actually I remember the crowbar feeling very different, now you mention it. I can get on board with a lot of these criticisms. I still think Black Mesa is great, though.

 

[randir14]

Damn, the third Xen level runs like shit even after turning all the settings to low. I went from ~90 fps in the first two maps on ultra settings to 30 in that one.

 

[Tacgnol]

I mean, no game back then had great enemy animation reaction to being hit before dying, to my memory. I'm not saying HL2 holds up today on that stuff, I just don't get the negative comparison to the first. Granted I haven't played the first in a loooooong time, so if it had some super advanced tech in that area that even HL2 doesn't have then maybe I forgot it. I doubt it though.

Goldeneye and Perfect Dark both had enemy hit reactions including prolonged pain animations, and in the case of Perfect Dark, limping and injured limbs. Console FPS of course, but still.

 

[DalekFlay]

Goldeneye and Perfect Dark both had enemy hit reactions including prolonged pain animations, and in the case of Perfect Dark, limping and injured limbs. Console FPS of course, but still.

I would never leave the castle to play with the peasants like you obviously did, so I wouldn't know.

Just kidding, my friends and I played Goldeneye all the time and yeah, good example.