Black Mesa - legendary vaporware Half-Life remake finally out

[Psquit]

"8-10 Hours of single-player gameplay, up to the Lambda Core chapter" hmmm but i wanna see xen

 

[Darklife]

Nah, when HL2 dropped people praised them over the combined troops, who were pretty bad

Also , why don't they use grenades?

 

[Twinkle]

HL's "AI" for some unknown reason received many blowjobs probably due to smoke and mirrors effects created by scripting (like radio chatter when in reality bots couldn't communicate with each and work as a team, or scripted retreats like skyway described). The same thing happened to FEAR in 2005.

And yet they still were much better combatants than Combine troops that were stupid toothless punching bags.

 

[Oriebam]

I meant to get this video where this guy had view from above and kept listing a bunch of coordinated manouvers the AI was making to see if it could stir something up but couldn't find it

meh


also found this

more oh shit moments like in the end of the video would have been welcome

 

[Psquit]

HL's AI wasn't that good to begin with, some fancy scripted scenes an that's it. Your average fps AI from doom or duke nukem.
Doing HL's campaign in sven coop was soo much fun... i miss sven coop.

 

[MetalCraze]

Don't remember anyone praising Marines' AI in HL1. They've always been regarded as dumb motherfuckers.

Ugh no. What Twinkle said.
When HL came out all AI we had in most shooters was pretty much Quake like - monsters just ran at you guns blazing.
HL introduced "cinematic" scripts like radio comms giving the impression of teamwork, bots running somewhere else but always right at you - so it was a nice sand in the eyes multiplied by the novelty of it.

HL was one of the first to lay the foundation for MoH and CoD in this regard.

So now it's the same with people who launch HL Source and go like "zomg HL was better"
No it was the same, you just remember it based on your '98 walkthrough.

 

[poocolator]

They're certainly more intelligent than the commentator, hurr hurr.

 

[Morgoth]

HL introduced "cinematic" scripts like radio comms giving the impression of teamwork, bots running somewhere else but always right at you - so it was a nice sand in the eyes multiplied by the novelty of it.

Nope. Radio chatter was for atmospheric purposes only. The marine AI itself was glitchy at best, even for 1998 standards. Sometimes those bastards would manage to throw a grenade in front of your feet, sometimes they'd run around like aimless chickens and get shot in the back.

Unreal 1 or NOLF had much better AI. Doesn't change the fact though that HL was still the overall better shooter.

HL was one of the first to lay the foundation for MoH and CoD in this regard.

No. Maybe it inspired other developers to get into that whole Hollywood war movie genre, but it was ultimately EA and that whole "Saving Private Ryan" hype at that time that led to the advent of popamole shooter.

So now it's the same with people who launch HL Source and go like "zomg HL was better"
No it was the same, you just remember it based on your '98 walkthrough.

Just after finishing Black Mesa, I'm now replaying Half Life 1998 again. And yes, it's still the better game. The tech and mechanics might be worse, but it's overall still the more immersive game.

 

[DraQ]

I was never terribly impressed by it but HL's AI *was* miles above that of most of its predecessors.

Doom engine games had very simple AI, Build engine ones had enemies that could at best be described as randumb - even if they had effective counters against player's tactics (like cultists' dynamite in Blood) they used then randomly. Quake 1 AI was nothing to write about, and Q2's wasn't substantially better as it had problems navigating environment and all its intelligence was limited to clearing the line of sight when obscured and mechanically zigzagging or crouching when shot at.

Along with Hexen 2 and Unreal HL1 was one of the very first FPS games where AI engaged in context-dependent purposeful behaviour beyond basic "when triggered attack if possible, else follow until can attack, else wander randomly", which was the norm back then.

HL1 marines could detect when you were in cover and flush you out with grenades with decent accuracy, run away from explosives, seek cover when shot at and retreat when wounded (often dropping presents behind). True, seeking cover largely depended on hand-placed path nodes explicitly telling AI that "this spot here is safe from incoming fire", but that's still not scripted behaviour in its usual, rigid sense, merely a crutch for AI, and let's not forget about the game having to run on P166 or 133.

HL1 also had assassins that could harass player rather effectively in cluttered environment, by repeatedly attacking and retreating using different routes.

It also had alien animals that maybe weren't all that smart, but they did behave differently from each other, for example Houndeyes preferred to retreat and seek other Houndeyes rather than attack alone.

Finally, it had Vortigaunts that could retreat or cease hostilities when wounded - or pretend to become docile as long as you didn't turn your back on them.

All in all HL1 had enemies that behaved differently from each other and their behaviour depended on context, which was quite a big step up from enemies displaying variants of the exact same behaviour and switching actions completely randomly.

Of course, cinematic shit like radio barks was just for flavour and I don't know why would anyone drag it into discussion about HL's AI - that's only marginally better than arguing that Doom featured real strong AI, because it could feel pain as evidenced by monsters playing pain noises when damaged - in other words:

So now it's the same with people who launch HL Source and go like "zomg HL was better"
No it was the same, you just remember it based on your '98 walkthrough.

I don't know about AI but vanilla HL is demonstrably better in some aspects - for example enemies with different hitboxes using different materials with different properties such as DR, DT or hit effect can be easily tested in game.

 

[Trash]

Back in the day I played all fps's. HL1's AI stood out for the simple reason that the enemies didn't just run at you, took cover and occasionally tossed grenades. At least the marines. Other enemies behaved differently, which also was a rather novel thing at the time.

And regarding the comment about Fear's AI. It wasn't ground breaking or even particularly smart. It was however tailor made for the gameplay and level design of that game and worked splendid. Here, a short fun read about it.

http://uk.gamespy.com/pc/fear/698080p1.html

 

[sea]

I am extremely impressed with what I've played so far. I was expecting something pretty cool but the sheer amount of time and effort put into this game is mind-boggling. The amount of unique assets etc. even in the opening tram ride is ahead of what you'd see in some modern titles, and surprisingly they manage to maintain the art style of the series quite well, hitting a nice blend between the original and Half-Life 2. I shudder to think how long it took them to make some of those rooms you see for all of 5 seconds as the train rides through.

Gameplay is good, but I feel like something about the shooting feels off. Hitboxes are a bit odd (bullets going through heads of zombies) and the firing animations etc. are a bit weak. I don't know if this is a Source thing, though most Source games for one reason or another tend to have unsatisfying gunplay. Also, they really needed more voice actors.

 

[DemonKing]

HL was nothing short of a revelation at the time of release - it used scripting in a way that had never really been attempted before (but has been endlessly copied and expanded upon ever since). The AI was also a lot better than the usual fare of the time (I remember being impressed that the grunts would use grenades to try to flush you out of cover, for instance). I last replayed it almost 10 years ago and even back then the cracks were beginning to show in the wake of newer titles but when it was released the way it managed to create a lving, breathing environment full of events and set pieces was nothing short of astounding.

Still one of my all time favourites.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

HL1 marines were dumb as mud, you can actually get them to kill themselves if you wake them up but dont give them a clear path, they will throw nades and more than likely wind up with one at their feet. Black Mesa continues this tradition of dumbshit AI, so its nice that they stay true to the source (lol) material.

 

[DraQ]

HL1 marines were dumb as mud, you can actually get them to kill themselves if you wake them up but dont give them a clear path, they will throw nades and more than likely wind up with one at their feet.

Yes, you could fool them like any other dumbshit piece of code. The thing is that you had to know how they work and exploit it. It was still much harder to get a HL1 marine to blow himself up than to do the same with cultists in Blood or gunners in Q2 (ok, with gunners it could take a while because their 'nades were hilariously weak).

 

[CorpseZeb]

Unreal 1 or NOLF had much better AI. Doesn't change the fact though that HL was still the overall better shooter.

Btw, I read somewhere, they dumbed down the Nolf A.I, because at the full possible rage, she was really merciless (she can track you down by tracking your foot track on the snow, for example). Nevertheless, A.I's from HL1 have their moments like nice 'nades pack or surround surprise, in the contrary to the A.I from newer games like Crysis 2...

Ps. On the hard level BM is much harder than original, e.g those cute blue, singing alien entities and the vor-something dudes have much shorter attack time.
Ps2. Unreal 1... has a better A.I? Seriously? Do you fight with any skaarj warrior recently? In the tight corridor especially...

 

[Morgoth]

Well yes, the Skaarj were the only ones with good AI.

 

[Psquit]

wolfestein 3d has better AI

 

[CorpseZeb]

My experience is different, then.

Ps. I wonder, in the hypothetical "core wars" arena, where A.I's fighting with each other, A.I's from what game will win. I bet HL1 A.I's.
Ps2. And let's not forget invisible ladies wearing black latex...

 

[poocolator]

Well yes, the Skaarj were the only ones with good AI.

The Skaarj were designed to lunge around and dodge your slower projectiles. If there were more than one, they'd all be lunging around dodging your projectiles. I never felt that it was anything but good hit prediction and a tendency to remain cautious rather than charge you. However the game implemented them very well. The Skaarj were tough bastards with a good chunk of HP; you never did encounter more than, say, three at a time, to avoid giving them the impression of being cannon fodder. The part of the ISV-Kraan level where they respawned endlessly was a damned travesty.

 

[Oriebam]

I don't know if this is a Source thing, though most Source games for one reason or another tend to have unsatisfying gunplay.

did you play E.Y.E? there were mixed views on it and enemies didn't respond well to getting shot, but some people thought the gunplay was ok, like me

 

[sea]

I don't know if this is a Source thing, though most Source games for one reason or another tend to have unsatisfying gunplay.

did you play E.Y.E? there were mixed views on it and enemies didn't respond well to getting shot, but some people thought the gunplay was ok, like me

The guns were definitely pretty great but I agree that the enemy reactions were a bit lacking. I dunno, something about the camera movement and stuff in most Source games tends to mean gunshots lack impact. Feels like you're just firing hitscan rays and not bullets at enemies.

 

[DraQ]

The Skaarj were designed to lunge around and dodge your slower projectiles. If there were more than one, they'd all be lunging around dodging your projectiles. I never felt that it was anything but good hit prediction and a tendency to remain cautious rather than charge you. However the game implemented them very well. The Skaarj were tough bastards with a good chunk of HP; you never did encounter more than, say, three at a time, to avoid giving them the impression of being cannon fodder. The part of the ISV-Kraan level where they respawned endlessly was a damned travesty.

Well, they also had some fairly impressive pathfinding and environmental awareness. They should have packed a bit more rape, though, maybe then ISV-Kran Deck 1 Skaarj Rush would have been more of a "fucking run!!1" moment.

Anyway:

I finished BMS.

It was good, but there quite a few things I'm butthurt about:

1. Overall the AI works pretty much as it did in original - marines flank, retreat and 'nade you in a semi-smart manner, plus they fire quickly, houndeyes try to swarm you if in group, retreat if alone, alien grunts do the regular alien grunt thing and so on, however:

-assassins are lame, yes, they are fast, mobile and navigate their environments extremely well, but they are a bit too straightforward in their approach which gets them killed awfully fast, especially with fucking glowy goggles.

-Vortigaunts don't seem to lose morale, go nonhostile or fake nonhostility.

-Marines don't seem to set 'nade traps and use grenades more sparingly - meh.

2. While I wouldn't mind ON A RAIL getting cut, and appreciate new areas, there was a lot of cutting aimed specifically at reducing HL's already meagre nonlinearity )to avoid confusing retards or something). I mean mainly SURFACE TENSION and, ironically, ON A RAIL.There are quite a few interesting sequences gone.


Also, to add insult to injury RESIDUE PROCESSING was left completely intact and, despite being the most pointless and boring chapter that should be reduced to some token processing section, maybe padded a bit to elicit "I want my weapons baaaack!!!1" feeling of vulnerability.

3. No Xen. Yes, I know they will release subsequent content separately later on. No. Fuck you.

4. Aliens are too human. I'm speaking mainly of morphology and, in case of vortiguants, of vocalization. In general I always considered HL2 and Episodes' Vortigaunts shit, albeit with cool looking eyes.

5. Vehicle fights are the epitome of fail, especially given that they require cheesing the fuck out of derpy AI while ducking behind an indestructible box or other seemingly insubstantial obstacle.

6. Visuals are excellent, but some particle effects look poor even compared to HL1. I'm speaking of ones accompanying Gluon Gun and its otherwise cool disintegration effect and some misc ones like flies. The former could use some colour gradation and different method of expiry to produce more natural effect (or just be ported and colour adjusted HL2 disintegration effects - why the fuck not?). The latter look like lifted verbatim from Q2. Some effects could also use richer palette (energy weapons) or better dynamics (muzzle flashes).

7. Explosions are weak, especially in terms of sounds, same with firing the RPG.

8. Some weapons are overbalanced, for example Tau Cannon got general boost in terms of firepower and effectiveness, but lost its secondary spalling effect so there is little difference between alt and primary modes and weapon lost much of its flavour. Hivehand is cool, but it seems to inflict way too much rape.

9. Some of the sequences lost their organic character due to too much railroading.

10. Frequent CTDs later on.

11. If you give me aiming with sights function for Python, then give me a good reason to use it, or at least sights that don't suck. Yes, that may mean having to add up to five more polys on the model, I don't care.

12. I like my corpses blood splattered and messy as much as everyone else, but having an Icky look as if it was half flayed after but two bolts from xbow is a bit too much.

13. If I see one more game with snipers (or autoturrets for that matter, but especially snipers) having not just laser sight, but bright, conspicuous laser beams attached to their weapons I'm going on a killing spree. With a fucking axe. With laser pointer taped to it.


14. Houndeye model looks nice, but it seems swollen somehow. Would benefit from having a lot of stuff (like eye, uh... sphincter or individual ommatidia) finer.

Now for the good stuff:

1. The reimagining is generally pretty faithful and of good quality.

2. There is a lot of unique dialogue and characters introduces in place of original's clones without actually affecting the composition or pacing of the whole. Characters you'd have to leave at some point now provide some rationale other than "hurr i'm a derpy AI and can't navigate hazards".

3. Difficulty is generally increased, to the point where I toned it down to medium at later stage.

4. Someone on the team knew their stuff - there are many whiteboards in the facility with pretty interesting stuff (especially those pertaining to physics, less so with xenobiology).

5. Some alterations include changing the somewhat derpy stuff in the original, others giving an i(effective!) llusion of a much bigger place.

6. BMS teem seem to have managed partial armour in Source engine.

7. Manning .50 Browning MG.

8. Physical engine actually adds something to game here. In the mayhem of combat there is a lot of potential ad-hoc cover or tactics like rolling out a flammable barrel.

9. No more flashlight baterry running out of charge after 15s of use.
Or at all.

10. Characters react to stuff. Yeah, it's generally scripted, but when you, for example, lead a guard to teleporter and step through he will be appropriately shocked.

 

[Luzur]

ah, so it is still a demo? i was kinda perplexed when i jumped into that teleporter to Xen only to arrive at the end credits.

if it is unfinished, call it a demo, not a "full release".

also it is good enough for what it is.

 

[racofer]

I've tried playing this thing, but I just can't bring myself to play fpses anymore.

Back to FTL.

 

[Don Peste]

Mediocre mod with insane amounts of undeserved hype.