Game News Blackguards 2 Announced

[Loriac]

proving there is still a market for hardcore CRPG's.

Now if only someone would make one. Blackguards 2 doesn't sound like an RPG in any meaningful sense, unless you consider japanese style tactics game translated into a western format to be that. Complete with the preset characters to use, no doubt lots of 'great' story that is pretty much railroaded etc.

 

[WetWorks]

What a poorly written press release. Unprofessional.

Still, bought and liked Bg, so this is good news.

 

[Infinitron]

proving there is still a market for hardcore CRPG's.

Now if only someone would make one. Blackguards 2 doesn't sound like an RPG in any meaningful sense, unless you consider japanese style tactics game translated into a western format to be that. Complete with the preset characters to use, no doubt lots of 'great' story that is pretty much railroaded etc.

So, after 36 posts in the Blackguards megathread showing absolutely no sign of you not enjoying the game, you've suddenly decided it's not RPG enough for you and that this announcement is decline?

 

[evdk]

Well, it's true that Blackguards is not much of an RPG, but it is a fine game still.

 

[felipepepe]

Alhought, taking a come careful look, some of the news seem not that good... it implies only 4 party menbers, your PC + three guys from the previous game. That would lead to the same fucking problem of not having a goddamn archer or freedom to customize your party...

 

[Morality Games]

Would it really matter?

Also: we now get press releases directly? Prestigious indeed.

Stepping away from PCs is rarely a good move in contemporary RPGs; it would probably suit the overall style of Blackguards better though, no doubt about that.

It would just be one more adventure game element more present in the game and the original was already full of them, what with the puzzle based encounter design and all.

Maybe. My impression is that Daedalic created the Blackguards party around Might and Magic/Icewind Dale/Storm of the Zehir party-as-protagonist design principles, adding assigned "Hawke" personalities in the manner of Dragon Age II; the player could utilize these different personalities in the dialogue to create a convincing sense of self that is distributed across the entire party *more* than a specific character; for example, a party where the greedy dwarf has the most influence would be True Neutral mercenaries, and the ruthless princess would be Neutral Evil.

The original tried to balance this approach with a custom made personal protagonist, but it never rose above functional. First of all, the PC in Blackguard is a borderline impersonality (much like the Inquisitor in the Inquisition trailers) because (1) a narrative that insisted players identify with an exaggerated personality whose values and mannerisms they didn't agree with would have offended too many people and (2) they didn't have the resources or design capacity to let the player role-play the way a PC should be able to; the PC is ends up being the "voice of reason" in the group; the average man's voice. Ultimately, just another character -- the blandest, least exciting one that the narrative tells us *is* us because he doesn't have an obvious personality defect.

Problem is, this style of game doesn't need a "voice of reason" to tether things together; the chaos between characters having to agree when they don't is what creates the dramatic tension. It didn't matter in the original because dialogue was a pretty superficial mechanic, but, in a game of this style where the dialogue actually matters, then the role of the gamer is to "elevate" one of the assigned personalities above the other in terms of defining the identity of the party; establishing the tone-at-the-top as it were. Self-inserts don't really fit with that concept.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Alhought, taking a come careful look, some of the news seem not that good... it implies only 4 party menbers, your PC + three guys from the previous game. That would lead to the same fucking problem of not having a goddamn archer or freedom to customize your party...

I really hope for more party members, a larger roster which we can choose from. Main character plus 7-8 party members would be enough.

 

[Infinitron]

Morality Games I think Daedalic took an interesting route for characterizing Blackguards' protagonist, actually. He's the indolent courtier of a minor noble - he outright says that he's lazy and all he's ever wanted to do is lay down in the sun.

In order to create a believable story when the player is new to the world despite his character having lived in it his entire life, other RPGs make you an amnesiac, or a stranger in a new land. The protagonist of Blackguards, meanwhile, knows nothing about the world because he was actually too lazy to have done anything of note in his life before the game's plot began.

(As a corollary, you can see that it's not true that he doesn't have a personality defect.)

 

[JarlFrank]

Alhought, taking a come careful look, some of the news seem not that good... it implies only 4 party menbers, your PC + three guys from the previous game. That would lead to the same fucking problem of not having a goddamn archer or freedom to customize your party...

Sadly, at some point in RPG history, standard party size went from 6 to 4 and nowadays 6 is the exception even in more hardcore indie releases (KotC and Paper Sorcerer, for example, follow late 80s/early 90s design principles when 6 char parties were the norm but they both have only 4 char parties, which is the exception for games of that time; I remember a German review of M&M 6 that criticized the game for its small party size saying "4 chars are not enough for a proper RPG" and that game is mid-90s).

Personally I think 5 is probably the best number of chars for a party-based RPG, I usually keep 5 chars in the BG games (with the sixth slot for quest-related party members that I only keep temporarily) and in the pen and paper sessions I play we usually have 5 players.
Of course, the classic 6-char-party is awesome too. 4 is just too limited though, there will usually be no variety in player parties at all as everyone tends to go for the safe fighter/mage/cleric/thief composition in order to cover all possible tasks the party encounters. Having 5 or 6 chars means you can be a bit more creative in party composition and take a more unorthodox class into the party.

 

[Infinitron]

Thing is, Blackguards doesn't let you customize your party to your liking, so you might not get the "safe fighter/mage/cleric/thief composition". Although I would have liked it if there was a Rogue companion in Blackguards, I do think limiting the player like that can lead to some challenging scenarios.

Which reminds me, since Aurelia is apparently gone, the party described consists of two fighters and a mage, plus the PC. What if the player wants to be a fighter too? For that reason alone I suspect there are additional companions they're not telling us about. I mean, you don't make a sequel without adding at least one new character, right?

 

[Morality Games]

Infinitron No, there were a couple more of choice sentences I might have added like, "He doesn't have a glaring personality defect . . . beyond barely having a personality at all." That would have been more cohesive with your observation.

I didn't mean to say that Daedalic's implementation of the personal PC was absent of cleverness -- it is pretty meta when you look at it twice -- but I still think the overall inclusion of a personal PC is superfluous and maybe even obstructive to a narrative that aspires to be "The Temple of Elemental Evil with heightened personality and more interactivity."

Apparently Daedalic does too.

 

[felipepepe]

I always look at Blackguards as a european version of Final Fantasy Tactics...

 

[Xu Fugui]

 

[JarlFrank]

Thing is, Blackguards doesn't let you customize your party to your liking, so you might not get the "safe fighter/mage/cleric/thief composition". Although I would have liked it if there was a Rogue companion in Blackguards, I do think limiting the player like that can lead to some challenging scenarios.

Sure, it can. But I prefer the flexibility of larger parties, and adding one more char to the party size could let them introduce a much more interestingly built guy into the mix, like a fighter-mage hybrid, while BG had mostly "pure" chars (with the exception of the elf chick who was good at shooting a bow as well as casting a couple of spells).

Then again, the lower flexibility might fit to the game's adventure style combat encounters, so eh.

 

[evdk]

I always look at Blackguards as a european version of Final Fantasy Tactics...

Yeah, this. And I don't think FFT is an RPG either.

 

[Grunker]

Fair enough.

Not really. The vast majority of the game has you being a typical fantasy hero, saving others while gaining little or nothing in return. At the same time the writing reinforces this image of self-sacrificing heroes, especially for the protagonist who has lines that are 1:1 translatable with paladins at times. The reason for Infinitron's confusion, I suspect, is that sometimes this isn't true, and the characters are indeed portrayed as self-interested "blackguards". Mainly this inconsistency and wildly varying tone in the game comes down to some of the most shitty writing I've witnessed in an RPG, and that alone speaks volumes. I suspect the blackguards vs. not blackguards is more due to this than to either you or the 'tron being objectively wrong in the grander scheme of things.

Ultimately though: who gives a fuck? The story is just an arbitrary back-drop for some P&P-style good encounters. Here's my hopes and desires for Blackguards 2: the encounter quality and BEAUTIFUL diversity of act 2, and a better, more sturdy, more complex version of the system underlining the whole thing.

The fact that they outright state they will simplify an already quite simplistic system makes me skeptical however :/

 

[Morality Games]

Sadly, at some point in RPG history, standard party size went from 6 to 4

Kotor.

 

[VioletShadow]

Love Daedalic. Dark Eye rpgs, adventures, keem em coming!!!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I liked Blackguards a lot. Now they just need to flesh it out. I think Deadelic has shown they listen to the community. I appreciated their involvement here. Here is some of what I thought would be good additions:

- better itemization
- item descriptions
- more flavours for each weapon/damage type
- more potions / alchemy lending viability to alternate party makeups
- options for animation speed
- LOTS of in-game feedback on what is happening tactically (see ToEE floaties)
- better enemy tactics and ability use
- make battles harder because of this not because of ridiculous poison
- pre-battle setup options, possibly through skill advancement
- Introduce multi-character attack possibilities such as joint attacks or FF style skill-chains
- less puzzly aspects
- battle map interactivity was novel for a while but the gold was the mechanics
- I should not have to look at a battle map wondering what I should be doing
- focus on strengths
- more variability in party combinations
- Most blackguards characters I didn't give a shit about
- Make me care or don't force the same characters on me
- Mix it up, give us different companion options that cover all possible combinations
- Don't force 2 of 4 party members to be of certain types

 

[Darth Roxor]

but first we must agree what is an rpg

 

[JarlFrank]

but first we must agree what is an rpg

halo

 

[Essegi]

...
KotC
...

Personally I think 5 is probably the best number of chars for a party-based RPG, I usually keep 5 chars in the BG games (with the sixth slot for quest-related party members that I only keep temporarily) and in the pen and paper sessions I play we usually have 5 players.

Out of interest: as far as i know for KotC 2 the dev has still not decided if sick to 4 party or increase to 5 or 6 for campaing and maybe even to 8 on custom maps:
http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=410
(old topic but i don't remember anything has been retreated...)
I want that sequel so badly!!!!

Back to topic: i've still not played Blackguards, but it's surely on top of my wishlist. So good to have a sequel.
Is it an rpg or not? I can't care less if game is good and tactic...

 

[Grunker]

I liked Blackguards a lot. Now they just need to flesh it out. I think Deadelic has shown they listen to the community.

They did? One of the biggest complaints here was documentation, something they repeatedly stated they were aware of. What did they end up doing? They included felipepe's homemade guess-work guide and called it a day. AFAIR, felipe wasn't even compensated with a small gift or nothin'. They certainly ENGAGED a lot with the community and kept us informed, but I see no proof that they listened, beyond the fact that they made an optional non-class character creation option (which was indeed very cool).

I, too, and hyped for this, as I had tons of fun with Blackguards. But saying that there main two ambitions with the sequel is to a) include faction mechanics in a fundamentally linear game and b) simplify an already pretty simplistic system, does not inspire the utmost confidence.

Maybe I am just a pessimist here, but once they show some improvements I'll be:

 

[Sunsetspawn]

Too many games
Too much backlog
Too much real life stuff

Now you see why my played-to-finished ratio is so crap

 

[Loriac]

proving there is still a market for hardcore CRPG's.

Now if only someone would make one. Blackguards 2 doesn't sound like an RPG in any meaningful sense, unless you consider japanese style tactics game translated into a western format to be that. Complete with the preset characters to use, no doubt lots of 'great' story that is pretty much railroaded etc.

So, after 36 posts in the Blackguards megathread showing absolutely no sign of you not enjoying the game, you've suddenly decided it's not RPG enough for you and that this announcement is decline?

Blackguards 1 was a departure from the usual games Daedalic makes, which in my mind gave them a bit of leeway. We ended up with a game that was a curious mix of tactical battles using a tried-and-tested pnp rpg system combined with set-piece battles in a fairly linear adventure game style storyline.

For Blackguards 2, and purely based on the press release of course, it seems they're going further down the adventure game line, with a progression that will no doubt be tightly on rails. They also mention tweaking the pnp rules further, which is likely to be a mistake as their ability to balance the rules will probably be inferior to playtesting over the years in the pnp version (you can see this in BG1 where one of the key departures was not allowing wounds to kill, which significantly rebalanced the game to favour hard hitting weapons that could make use of mighty blow or whatever its called).

So I'm quite disappointed: they have a combat engine that could really provide for a lot of good tactical battles, but they're marrying it up to a game style that is more JRPG on rails than western RPG.

I hope this clarifies my thoughts, and why I don't think I'm being inconsistent when I say that I liked BG1 for what it was, but am disappointed that BG2 will incorporate more elements I dislike while losing things that I absolutely insist on in an RPG - the most important one being able to create my own main character rather than have a set protagonist (who worse still is a woman probably purely for bullshit politically correct reasons).