Blackspace!

[Kayerts]

Could you discuss a bit about how the new thrust formula works? Those of us with >9999 engines (...actually that's just me, but whatever) have less flexibility in how we experiment with that.

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

For a size 50 ship, the thrust achieved vs. # of Cijaas was:

12 11.37
11 11.1
10 10.79
9 10.46
8 10.09
7 9.67
6 9.2
5 8.63
4 7.96
3 7.13
2 6.02
1 4.34

Roughly a sqrt(n) growth.

Also, new engines at Ahbet with 336T for 120 sc and 850 pu.

I propose scaling the TPH by ship size instead of number of engines, via the formula:

TPH = 1+ rto / ( Size ^ (1.2 + 0.1*Size/100) )

A ship that invests half its available space into engines (assuming standard hulls, and eQ8 power plants) will roughly have the following Size vs. TPH curve:

Ship Size (STD)	Plasmas	Raw Thrust	TPH Scale by Size
1.0000000000000	0.13029316	43.77850163	44.77850163
2.0000000000000	0.260586319	87.55700326	39.05860224
3.0000000000000	0.390879479	131.3355049	36.02718842
4.0000000000000	0.521172638	175.1140065	33.9944319
5.0000000000000	0.651465798	218.8925081	32.47545685
6.0000000000000	0.781758958	262.6710098	31.26646748
7.0000000000000	0.912052117	306.4495114	30.26345493
8.0000000000000	1.042345277	350.228013	29.40652936
9.0000000000000	1.172638436	394.0065147	28.65821885
10.0000000000000	1.302931596	437.7850163	27.99360529
11.0000000000000	1.433224756	481.5635179	27.39532639
12.0000000000000	1.563517915	525.3420195	26.85082866
13.0000000000000	1.693811075	569.1205212	26.35075857
14.0000000000000	1.824104235	612.8990228	25.88797109
15.0000000000000	1.954397394	656.6775244	25.45689238
16.0000000000000	2.084690554	700.4560261	25.05309558
17.0000000000000	2.214983713	744.2345277	24.67300977
18.0000000000000	2.345276873	788.0130293	24.31371522
19.0000000000000	2.475570033	831.7915309	23.97279593
20.0000000000000	2.605863192	875.5700326	23.64823143
21.0000000000000	2.736156352	919.3485342	23.33831594
22.0000000000000	2.866449511	963.1270358	23.04159702
23.0000000000000	2.996742671	1006.905537	22.75682837
24.0000000000000	3.127035831	1050.684039	22.48293305
25.0000000000000	3.25732899	1094.462541	22.21897452
26.0000000000000	3.38762215	1138.241042	21.9641335
27.0000000000000	3.517915309	1182.019544	21.71768945
28.0000000000000	3.648208469	1225.798046	21.47900547
29.0000000000000	3.778501629	1269.576547	21.24751604
30.0000000000000	3.908794788	1313.355049	21.02271679
31.0000000000000	4.039087948	1357.13355	20.80415615
32.0000000000000	4.169381107	1400.912052	20.59142826
33.0000000000000	4.299674267	1444.690554	20.38416711
34.0000000000000	4.429967427	1488.469055	20.18204152
35.0000000000000	4.560260586	1532.247557	19.98475089
36.0000000000000	4.690553746	1576.026059	19.7920216
37.0000000000000	4.820846906	1619.80456	19.60360392
38.0000000000000	4.951140065	1663.583062	19.41926929
39.0000000000000	5.081433225	1707.361564	19.23880803
40.0000000000000	5.211726384	1751.140065	19.06202734
41.0000000000000	5.342019544	1794.918567	18.88874955
42.0000000000000	5.472312704	1838.697068	18.71881056
43.0000000000000	5.602605863	1882.47557	18.55205853
44.0000000000000	5.732899023	1926.254072	18.38835268
45.0000000000000	5.863192182	1970.032573	18.22756223
46.0000000000000	5.993485342	2013.811075	18.06956551
47.0000000000000	6.123778502	2057.589577	17.9142491
48.0000000000000	6.254071661	2101.368078	17.76150714
49.0000000000000	6.384364821	2145.14658	17.61124062
50.0000000000000	6.51465798	2188.925081	17.46335686
51.0000000000000	6.64495114	2232.703583	17.31776893
52.0000000000000	6.7752443	2276.482085	17.17439521
53.0000000000000	6.905537459	2320.260586	17.03315895
54.0000000000000	7.035830619	2364.039088	16.89398791
55.0000000000000	7.166123779	2407.81759	16.75681396
56.0000000000000	7.296416938	2451.596091	16.62157285
57.0000000000000	7.426710098	2495.374593	16.48820383
58.0000000000000	7.557003257	2539.153094	16.35664946
59.0000000000000	7.687296417	2582.931596	16.22685535
60.0000000000000	7.817589577	2626.710098	16.09876995
61.0000000000000	7.947882736	2670.488599	15.97234433
62.0000000000000	8.078175896	2714.267101	15.84753202
63.0000000000000	8.208469055	2758.045603	15.72428886
64.0000000000000	8.338762215	2801.824104	15.6025728
65.0000000000000	8.469055375	2845.602606	15.48234382
66.0000000000000	8.599348534	2889.381107	15.36356375
67.0000000000000	8.729641694	2933.159609	15.24619619
68.0000000000000	8.859934853	2976.938111	15.13020637
69.0000000000000	8.990228013	3020.716612	15.01556106
70.0000000000000	9.120521173	3064.495114	14.9022285
71.0000000000000	9.250814332	3108.273616	14.79017828
72.0000000000000	9.381107492	3152.052117	14.67938127
73.0000000000000	9.511400651	3195.830619	14.56980955
74.0000000000000	9.641693811	3239.609121	14.46143635
75.0000000000000	9.771986971	3283.387622	14.35423597
76.0000000000000	9.90228013	3327.166124	14.24818371
77.0000000000000	10.03257329	3370.944625	14.14325586
78.0000000000000	10.16286645	3414.723127	14.03942959
79.0000000000000	10.29315961	3458.501629	13.93668295
80.0000000000000	10.42345277	3502.28013	13.83499479
81.0000000000000	10.55374593	3546.058632	13.73434475
82.0000000000000	10.68403909	3589.837134	13.63471316
83.0000000000000	10.81433225	3633.615635	13.5360811
84.0000000000000	10.94462541	3677.394137	13.43843027
85.0000000000000	11.07491857	3721.172638	13.34174302
86.0000000000000	11.20521173	3764.95114	13.24600229
87.0000000000000	11.33550489	3808.729642	13.15119157
88.0000000000000	11.46579805	3852.508143	13.05729492
89.0000000000000	11.59609121	3896.286645	12.96429689
90.0000000000000	11.72638436	3940.065147	12.87218254
91.0000000000000	11.85667752	3983.843648	12.78093739
92.0000000000000	11.98697068	4027.62215	12.69054741
93.0000000000000	12.11726384	4071.400651	12.600999
94.0000000000000	12.247557	4115.179153	12.51227895
95.0000000000000	12.37785016	4158.957655	12.42437446
96.0000000000000	12.50814332	4202.736156	12.3372731
97.0000000000000	12.63843648	4246.514658	12.25096278
98.0000000000000	12.76872964	4290.29316	12.16543179
99.0000000000000	12.8990228	4334.071661	12.0806687
100.0000000000000	13.02931596	4377.850163	11.99666242
101.0000000000000	13.15960912	4421.628664	11.91340217
102.0000000000000	13.28990228	4465.407166	11.83087744
103.0000000000000	13.42019544	4509.185668	11.749078
104.0000000000000	13.5504886	4552.964169	11.66799389
105.0000000000000	13.68078176	4596.742671	11.5876154
106.0000000000000	13.81107492	4640.521173	11.50793308
107.0000000000000	13.94136808	4684.299674	11.42893771
108.0000000000000	14.07166124	4728.078176	11.35062028
109.0000000000000	14.2019544	4771.856678	11.27297202
110.0000000000000	14.33224756	4815.635179	11.19598437
111.0000000000000	14.46254072	4859.413681	11.11964894
112.0000000000000	14.59283388	4903.192182	11.04395759
113.0000000000000	14.72312704	4946.970684	10.96890232
114.0000000000000	14.8534202	4990.749186	10.89447533
115.0000000000000	14.98371336	5034.527687	10.820669
116.0000000000000	15.11400651	5078.306189	10.74747587
117.0000000000000	15.24429967	5122.084691	10.67488864
118.0000000000000	15.37459283	5165.863192	10.60290019
119.0000000000000	15.50488599	5209.641694	10.53150352
120.0000000000000	15.63517915	5253.420195	10.46069179
121.0000000000000	15.76547231	5297.198697	10.39045832
122.0000000000000	15.89576547	5340.977199	10.32079653
123.0000000000000	16.02605863	5384.7557	10.25170001
124.0000000000000	16.15635179	5428.534202	10.18316245
125.0000000000000	16.28664495	5472.312704	10.11517769
126.0000000000000	16.41693811	5516.091205	10.04773966
127.0000000000000	16.54723127	5559.869707	9.980842426
128.0000000000000	16.67752443	5603.648208	9.914480169
129.0000000000000	16.80781759	5647.42671	9.848647172
130.0000000000000	16.93811075	5691.205212	9.783337826
131.0000000000000	17.06840391	5734.983713	9.718546624
132.0000000000000	17.19869707	5778.762215	9.65426816
133.0000000000000	17.32899023	5822.540717	9.590497125
134.0000000000000	17.45928339	5866.319218	9.527228301
135.0000000000000	17.58957655	5910.09772	9.464456566
136.0000000000000	17.71986971	5953.876221	9.402176882
137.0000000000000	17.85016287	5997.654723	9.3403843
138.0000000000000	17.98045603	6041.433225	9.279073955
139.0000000000000	18.11074919	6085.211726	9.21824106
140.0000000000000	18.24104235	6128.990228	9.15788091
141.0000000000000	18.3713355	6172.76873	9.097988875
142.0000000000000	18.50162866	6216.547231	9.038560403
143.0000000000000	18.63192182	6260.325733	8.97959101
144.0000000000000	18.76221498	6304.104235	8.921076287
145.0000000000000	18.89250814	6347.882736	8.863011892
146.0000000000000	19.0228013	6391.661238	8.805393549
147.0000000000000	19.15309446	6435.439739	8.74821705
148.0000000000000	19.28338762	6479.218241	8.69147825
149.0000000000000	19.41368078	6522.996743	8.635173065
150.0000000000000	19.54397394	6566.775244	8.579297472
151.0000000000000	19.6742671	6610.553746	8.523847508
152.0000000000000	19.80456026	6654.332248	8.468819266
153.0000000000000	19.93485342	6698.110749	8.414208896
154.0000000000000	20.06514658	6741.889251	8.360012604
155.0000000000000	20.19543974	6785.667752	8.306226647
156.0000000000000	20.3257329	6829.446254	8.252847337
157.0000000000000	20.45602606	6873.224756	8.199871034
158.0000000000000	20.58631922	6917.003257	8.147294151
159.0000000000000	20.71661238	6960.781759	8.095113147
160.0000000000000	20.84690554	7004.560261	8.043324529
161.0000000000000	20.9771987	7048.338762	7.991924853
162.0000000000000	21.10749186	7092.117264	7.940910717
163.0000000000000	21.23778502	7135.895765	7.890278765
164.0000000000000	21.36807818	7179.674267	7.840025685
165.0000000000000	21.49837134	7223.452769	7.790148207
166.0000000000000	21.6286645	7267.23127	7.740643101
167.0000000000000	21.75895765	7311.009772	7.691507181
168.0000000000000	21.88925081	7354.788274	7.642737297
169.0000000000000	22.01954397	7398.566775	7.594330342
170.0000000000000	22.14983713	7442.345277	7.546283243
171.0000000000000	22.28013029	7486.123779	7.498592968
172.0000000000000	22.41042345	7529.90228	7.45125652
173.0000000000000	22.54071661	7573.680782	7.404270937
174.0000000000000	22.67100977	7617.459283	7.357633294
175.0000000000000	22.80130293	7661.237785	7.3113407
176.0000000000000	22.93159609	7705.016287	7.265390297
177.0000000000000	23.06188925	7748.794788	7.21977926
178.0000000000000	23.19218241	7792.57329	7.174504797
179.0000000000000	23.32247557	7836.351792	7.129564149
180.0000000000000	23.45276873	7880.130293	7.084954586
181.0000000000000	23.58306189	7923.908795	7.040673411
182.0000000000000	23.71335505	7967.687296	6.996717955
183.0000000000000	23.84364821	8011.465798	6.95308558
184.0000000000000	23.97394137	8055.2443	6.909773676
185.0000000000000	24.10423453	8099.022801	6.866779662
186.0000000000000	24.23452769	8142.801303	6.824100986
187.0000000000000	24.36482085	8186.579805	6.781735122
188.0000000000000	24.49511401	8230.358306	6.739679571
189.0000000000000	24.62540717	8274.136808	6.697931861
190.0000000000000	24.75570033	8317.915309	6.656489547
191.0000000000000	24.88599349	8361.693811	6.615350207
192.0000000000000	25.01628664	8405.472313	6.574511447
193.0000000000000	25.1465798	8449.250814	6.533970896
194.0000000000000	25.27687296	8493.029316	6.493726209
195.0000000000000	25.40716612	8536.807818	6.453775062
196.0000000000000	25.53745928	8580.586319	6.414115158
197.0000000000000	25.66775244	8624.364821	6.374744221
198.0000000000000	25.7980456	8668.143322	6.335659999
199.0000000000000	25.92833876	8711.921824	6.296860261
200.0000000000000	26.05863192	8755.700326	6.258342799
201.0000000000000	26.18892508	8799.478827	6.220105427
202.0000000000000	26.31921824	8843.257329	6.182145979
203.0000000000000	26.4495114	8887.035831	6.144462312
204.0000000000000	26.57980456	8930.814332	6.107052303
205.0000000000000	26.71009772	8974.592834	6.069913848
206.0000000000000	26.84039088	9018.371336	6.033044865
207.0000000000000	26.97068404	9062.149837	5.996443292
208.0000000000000	27.1009772	9105.928339	5.960107084
209.0000000000000	27.23127036	9149.70684	5.924034218
210.0000000000000	27.36156352	9193.485342	5.888222688
211.0000000000000	27.49185668	9237.263844	5.852670508
212.0000000000000	27.62214984	9281.042345	5.81737571
213.0000000000000	27.752443	9324.820847	5.782336344
214.0000000000000	27.88273616	9368.599349	5.747550478
215.0000000000000	28.01302932	9412.37785	5.713016198
216.0000000000000	28.14332248	9456.156352	5.678731606
217.0000000000000	28.27361564	9499.934853	5.644694823
218.0000000000000	28.40390879	9543.713355	5.610903986
219.0000000000000	28.53420195	9587.491857	5.577357249
220.0000000000000	28.66449511	9631.270358	5.544052782
221.0000000000000	28.79478827	9675.04886	5.510988771
222.0000000000000	28.92508143	9718.827362	5.478163419
223.0000000000000	29.05537459	9762.605863	5.445574945
224.0000000000000	29.18566775	9806.384365	5.413221583
225.0000000000000	29.31596091	9850.162866	5.381101582
226.0000000000000	29.44625407	9893.941368	5.349213207
227.0000000000000	29.57654723	9937.71987	5.317554738
228.0000000000000	29.70684039	9981.498371	5.286124468
229.0000000000000	29.83713355	10025.27687	5.254920709
230.0000000000000	29.96742671	10069.05537	5.223941782
231.0000000000000	30.09771987	10112.83388	5.193186027
232.0000000000000	30.22801303	10156.61238	5.162651795
233.0000000000000	30.35830619	10200.39088	5.132337453
234.0000000000000	30.48859935	10244.16938	5.10224138
235.0000000000000	30.61889251	10287.94788	5.07236197
236.0000000000000	30.74918567	10331.72638	5.042697631
237.0000000000000	30.87947883	10375.50489	5.013246781
238.0000000000000	31.00977199	10419.28339	4.984007855
239.0000000000000	31.14006515	10463.06189	4.954979299
240.0000000000000	31.27035831	10506.84039	4.926159573
241.0000000000000	31.40065147	10550.61889	4.897547148
242.0000000000000	31.53094463	10594.39739	4.869140508
243.0000000000000	31.66123779	10638.1759	4.840938152
244.0000000000000	31.79153094	10681.9544	4.812938587
245.0000000000000	31.9218241	10725.7329	4.785140335
246.0000000000000	32.05211726	10769.5114	4.757541929
247.0000000000000	32.18241042	10813.2899	4.730141916
248.0000000000000	32.31270358	10857.0684	4.70293885
249.0000000000000	32.44299674	10900.84691	4.675931302
250.0000000000000	32.5732899	10944.62541	4.64911785
251.0000000000000	32.70358306	10988.40391	4.622497087
252.0000000000000	32.83387622	11032.18241	4.596067614
253.0000000000000	32.96416938	11075.96091	4.569828045
254.0000000000000	33.09446254	11119.73941	4.543777006
255.0000000000000	33.2247557	11163.51792	4.517913132
256.0000000000000	33.35504886	11207.29642	4.492235068
257.0000000000000	33.48534202	11251.07492	4.466741472
258.0000000000000	33.61563518	11294.85342	4.441431011
259.0000000000000	33.74592834	11338.63192	4.416302364
260.0000000000000	33.8762215	11382.41042	4.391354219
261.0000000000000	34.00651466	11426.18893	4.366585274
262.0000000000000	34.13680782	11469.96743	4.341994237
263.0000000000000	34.26710098	11513.74593	4.317579828
264.0000000000000	34.39739414	11557.52443	4.293340775
265.0000000000000	34.5276873	11601.30293	4.269275816
266.0000000000000	34.65798046	11645.08143	4.2453837
267.0000000000000	34.78827362	11688.85993	4.221663184
268.0000000000000	34.91856678	11732.63844	4.198113036
269.0000000000000	35.04885993	11776.41694	4.174732032
270.0000000000000	35.17915309	11820.19544	4.151518959
271.0000000000000	35.30944625	11863.97394	4.128472611
272.0000000000000	35.43973941	11907.75244	4.105591794
273.0000000000000	35.57003257	11951.53094	4.082875321
274.0000000000000	35.70032573	11995.30945	4.060322015
275.0000000000000	35.83061889	12039.08795	4.037930707
276.0000000000000	35.96091205	12082.86645	4.015700237
277.0000000000000	36.09120521	12126.64495	3.993629456
278.0000000000000	36.22149837	12170.42345	3.97171722
279.0000000000000	36.35179153	12214.20195	3.949962396
280.0000000000000	36.48208469	12257.98046	3.928363858
281.0000000000000	36.61237785	12301.75896	3.906920492
282.0000000000000	36.74267101	12345.53746	3.885631187
283.0000000000000	36.87296417	12389.31596	3.864494844
284.0000000000000	37.00325733	12433.09446	3.843510372
285.0000000000000	37.13355049	12476.87296	3.822676686
286.0000000000000	37.26384365	12520.65147	3.801992711
287.0000000000000	37.39413681	12564.42997	3.781457379
288.0000000000000	37.52442997	12608.20847	3.761069631
289.0000000000000	37.65472313	12651.98697	3.740828415
290.0000000000000	37.78501629	12695.76547	3.720732687
291.0000000000000	37.91530945	12739.54397	3.70078141
292.0000000000000	38.04560261	12783.32248	3.680973556
293.0000000000000	38.17589577	12827.10098	3.661308104
294.0000000000000	38.30618893	12870.87948	3.641784039
295.0000000000000	38.43648208	12914.65798	3.622400357
296.0000000000000	38.56677524	12958.43648	3.603156057
297.0000000000000	38.6970684	13002.21498	3.58405015
298.0000000000000	38.82736156	13045.99349	3.565081649
299.0000000000000	38.95765472	13089.77199	3.546249579
300.0000000000000	39.08794788	13133.55049	3.52755297
301.0000000000000	39.21824104	13177.32899	3.508990858
302.0000000000000	39.3485342	13221.10749	3.490562289
303.0000000000000	39.47882736	13264.88599	3.472266312
304.0000000000000	39.60912052	13308.6645	3.454101987
305.0000000000000	39.73941368	13352.443	3.436068378
306.0000000000000	39.86970684	13396.2215	3.418164557
307.0000000000000	40	13440	3.400389602
308.0000000000000	40.13029316	13483.7785	3.382742599
309.0000000000000	40.26058632	13527.557	3.365222639
310.0000000000000	40.39087948	13571.3355	3.34782882
311.0000000000000	40.52117264	13615.11401	3.330560248
312.0000000000000	40.6514658	13658.89251	3.313416033
313.0000000000000	40.78175896	13702.67101	3.296395293
314.0000000000000	40.91205212	13746.44951	3.279497153
315.0000000000000	41.04234528	13790.22801	3.262720742
316.0000000000000	41.17263844	13834.00651	3.246065198
317.0000000000000	41.3029316	13877.78502	3.229529662
318.0000000000000	41.43322476	13921.56352	3.213113284
319.0000000000000	41.56351792	13965.34202	3.19681522
320.0000000000000	41.69381107	14009.12052	3.180634629
321.0000000000000	41.82410423	14052.89902	3.16457068
322.0000000000000	41.95439739	14096.67752	3.148622544
323.0000000000000	42.08469055	14140.45603	3.132789402
324.0000000000000	42.21498371	14184.23453	3.117070438
325.0000000000000	42.34527687	14228.01303	3.101464843
326.0000000000000	42.47557003	14271.79153	3.085971813
327.0000000000000	42.60586319	14315.57003	3.07059055
328.0000000000000	42.73615635	14359.34853	3.055320262
329.0000000000000	42.86644951	14403.12704	3.040160164
330.0000000000000	42.99674267	14446.90554	3.025109473
331.0000000000000	43.12703583	14490.68404	3.010167414
332.0000000000000	43.25732899	14534.46254	2.995333218
333.0000000000000	43.38762215	14578.24104	2.980606121
334.0000000000000	43.51791531	14622.01954	2.965985362
335.0000000000000	43.64820847	14665.79805	2.95147019
336.0000000000000	43.77850163	14709.57655	2.937059855
337.0000000000000	43.90879479	14753.35505	2.922753615
338.0000000000000	44.03908795	14797.13355	2.908550731
339.0000000000000	44.16938111	14840.91205	2.894450473
340.0000000000000	44.29967427	14884.69055	2.880452112
341.0000000000000	44.42996743	14928.46906	2.866554926
342.0000000000000	44.56026059	14972.24756	2.852758199
343.0000000000000	44.69055375	15016.02606	2.839061218
344.0000000000000	44.82084691	15059.80456	2.825463276
345.0000000000000	44.95114007	15103.58306	2.811963673
346.0000000000000	45.08143322	15147.36156	2.79856171
347.0000000000000	45.21172638	15191.14007	2.785256695
348.0000000000000	45.34201954	15234.91857	2.772047943
349.0000000000000	45.4723127	15278.69707	2.758934769
350.0000000000000	45.60260586	15322.47557	2.745916498
351.0000000000000	45.73289902	15366.25407	2.732992456
352.0000000000000	45.86319218	15410.03257	2.720161974
353.0000000000000	45.99348534	15453.81107	2.707424391
354.0000000000000	46.1237785	15497.58958	2.694779047
355.0000000000000	46.25407166	15541.36808	2.682225288
356.0000000000000	46.38436482	15585.14658	2.669762466
357.0000000000000	46.51465798	15628.92508	2.657389934
358.0000000000000	46.64495114	15672.70358	2.645107053
359.0000000000000	46.7752443	15716.48208	2.632913188
360.0000000000000	46.90553746	15760.26059	2.620807706
361.0000000000000	47.03583062	15804.03909	2.608789981
362.0000000000000	47.16612378	15847.81759	2.596859391
363.0000000000000	47.29641694	15891.59609	2.585015317
364.0000000000000	47.4267101	15935.37459	2.573257145
365.0000000000000	47.55700326	15979.15309	2.561584267
366.0000000000000	47.68729642	16022.9316	2.549996077
367.0000000000000	47.81758958	16066.7101	2.538491973
368.0000000000000	47.94788274	16110.4886	2.52707136
369.0000000000000	48.0781759	16154.2671	2.515733645
370.0000000000000	48.20846906	16198.0456	2.504478239
371.0000000000000	48.33876221	16241.8241	2.493304559
372.0000000000000	48.46905537	16285.60261	2.482212023
373.0000000000000	48.59934853	16329.38111	2.471200056
374.0000000000000	48.72964169	16373.15961	2.460268085
375.0000000000000	48.85993485	16416.93811	2.449415543
376.0000000000000	48.99022801	16460.71661	2.438641866
377.0000000000000	49.12052117	16504.49511	2.427946493
378.0000000000000	49.25081433	16548.27362	2.417328868
379.0000000000000	49.38110749	16592.05212	2.406788439
380.0000000000000	49.51140065	16635.83062	2.396324657
381.0000000000000	49.64169381	16679.60912	2.385936978
382.0000000000000	49.77198697	16723.38762	2.375624861
383.0000000000000	49.90228013	16767.16612	2.365387769
384.0000000000000	50.03257329	16810.94463	2.355225167
385.0000000000000	50.16286645	16854.72313	2.345136528
386.0000000000000	50.29315961	16898.50163	2.335121325
387.0000000000000	50.42345277	16942.28013	2.325179036
388.0000000000000	50.55374593	16986.05863	2.315309142
389.0000000000000	50.68403909	17029.83713	2.305511128
390.0000000000000	50.81433225	17073.61564	2.295784483
391.0000000000000	50.94462541	17117.39414	2.2861287
392.0000000000000	51.07491857	17161.17264	2.276543274
393.0000000000000	51.20521173	17204.95114	2.267027704
394.0000000000000	51.33550489	17248.72964	2.257581493
395.0000000000000	51.46579805	17292.50814	2.248204148
396.0000000000000	51.59609121	17336.28664	2.238895178
397.0000000000000	51.72638436	17380.06515	2.229654096
398.0000000000000	51.85667752	17423.84365	2.220480419
399.0000000000000	51.98697068	17467.62215	2.211373667
400.0000000000000	52.11726384	17511.40065	2.202333363
401.0000000000000	52.247557	17555.17915	2.193359034
402.0000000000000	52.37785016	17598.95765	2.18445021
403.0000000000000	52.50814332	17642.73616	2.175606424
404.0000000000000	52.63843648	17686.51466	2.166827211
405.0000000000000	52.76872964	17730.29316	2.158112113
406.0000000000000	52.8990228	17774.07166	2.149460672
407.0000000000000	53.02931596	17817.85016	2.140872434
408.0000000000000	53.15960912	17861.62866	2.132346949
409.0000000000000	53.28990228	17905.40717	2.123883768
410.0000000000000	53.42019544	17949.18567	2.115482447
411.0000000000000	53.5504886	17992.96417	2.107142545
412.0000000000000	53.68078176	18036.74267	2.098863624
413.0000000000000	53.81107492	18080.52117	2.090645248
414.0000000000000	53.94136808	18124.29967	2.082486986
415.0000000000000	54.07166124	18168.07818	2.074388408
416.0000000000000	54.2019544	18211.85668	2.066349087
417.0000000000000	54.33224756	18255.63518	2.058368602
418.0000000000000	54.46254072	18299.41368	2.050446531
419.0000000000000	54.59283388	18343.19218	2.042582457
420.0000000000000	54.72312704	18386.97068	2.034775966

 

[Kayerts]

I propose scaling the TPH by ship size instead of number of engines, via the formula:

TPH = 1+ rto / ( Size ^ (1.2 + 0.1*Size/100) )

I propose that this formula suck it.

I'm kidding, although my inner math nerd gets terribly upset when it sees 0.1 * [term] / 100. Still, I don't think any good design leads to making 10000 engines = 1 engine on a sufficiently big ship, and that's what exponential growth in the denominator will get you.

DU, if audience participation is indeed desired here, could you throw out a few target points you'd like the formula to hit? So, e.g., a size 100 ship with 30 Cijaas should have X tph, a size 500 with 50 impulse arrays should have Y, a size 1000000 ship with 500000 impulse arrays should have Z, etc.

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

Still, I don't think any good design leads to making 10000 engines = 1 engine on a sufficiently big ship, and that's what exponential growth in the denominator will get you.

Ships aren't really meant to grow to size 500,000, you know

But if it really bothers you:

TPH = 1 + rto / Size^( 1.2 + 0.2*tanh(Size/200) )

 

[Kayerts]

Ha, right, and I actually like your new formula.

But the point of the size 1 million ship example was to establish bounds for the continuum. Obviously the big guy is going to get the short end of the formulaic stick, but it forces the consideration of how short exactly that should be. The current result (1 tph) is probably too low. What's too high?

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

Ultimately it should be a question of combat balance and time constants required to achieve a certain status (and thus it also depends on combat and trade mechanics and other things).

But bearing in mind that one of the design goals DU has stated is 7 TPH for big ships, and that ships should never be bigger than size 1,000, the above formula seems like a good place to start (perhaps with some tweaking).

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

Jumpgate #1 found at -118, 122
Seems to be dormant.

 

[Kayerts]

Sure, but I don't think he's done the things he needs to do to have lower general Tph and still keep the game playable. Moreover, not all big ships are created equal; how many engines to buy should still be a meaningful question even for the big guys, so there should be some significant variation there.

By the way, DU, I tried creating a new account. The signup screen provides some much-needed info, so that's good. The screenshots you used are kind of hilarious due to the chat logs; e.g. the first line in the image for "Conquer" is me talking about how I crashed the combat system. Overall I'd say things look pretty good, although I would highly recommend offering at least a basic scanner at Ahbet. If you don't, I doubt most new players will ever find Melcar.

 

[villain of the story]

What is and what isn't supposed to happen are way too retarded arguments and shit is way too fucking astronomically expensive to afford when the biggest ship size is to be 1K anyway, ie. credit-grinding will be an abysmal job, no different than just about any zombie-grind game out there.

Before the FUCK-UP(tm), growth of wealth was balanced by these astronomical prices. Look at the top 10 fat jews:

1. Relationship (Faceless Man) $24,498,890,168,177,000
2. Implausibly Large (Legion of Idiots) $389,877,450,449,250
3. Squish Tickle (Wild Slop) $788,169,302,610
4. ToddHowardiser (villain of the story) $774,902,639,449
5. Tranquillity (deniz) $391,783,404,336
6. Starscream (Spectral Miasma) $203,486,855,869
7. Insomniac (denizsi) $190,596,695,542
8. HMS Squatting Dutchman (Sitra Achara) $113,755,307,833
9. Heart of Gold (Kayerts) $90,597,096,686
10. Master of the Universe (Baron) $79,531,978,866

Apart from the first two, who probably got their wealth through early exploits, which one could take from the immeasurably high gap (and in-game messages), "distribution" of wealth was looking to get naturally curbed and balance towards the $1T mark and combat was just starting to take off with people generating enough credits to feel courageous about going out guns blazing. Not exactly possible now, since there's no sense in sinking my precious credits into a worthless piece of shit that can do pew pew and be done for.

If sinking time into this senseless bullshit is what you want, fine. Personally, I'd like to spend as little time on credit-grinding and more on combat and have FUN! and was expecting DU to take measures, without nerfing everything at once, to make combat a more viable option to compensate for how fucking difficult it is to even catch and attack someone. And around size 500-2500, it becomes just enough to generate enough wealth in a relatively short time (eg. a few days with a few 1:3 Robotics surges) to patch up a combat ship, have your fun, get destroyed and pick up where you left with a minor setback. Now, shit will take too much time and money to even patch up a combat ship.

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

Perhaps it's just a matter of perception - I view playing the game as dicking around in an alpha test. Come next week, you'll have 20 new game mechanics and features and price changes and what not. So I don't expect everything to be balanced every step of the way.

 

[villain of the story]

Why do you lie?

 

[DarkUnderlord]

DU, if audience participation is indeed desired here, could you throw out a few target points you'd like the formula to hit? So, e.g., a size 100 ship with 30 Cijaas should have X tph, a size 500 with 50 impulse arrays should have Y, a size 1000000 ship with 500000 impulse arrays should have Z, etc.

The fastest speed achievable should be 56 T/ph. This would likely be from the biggest engine sitting on the smallest possible ship you can put it on, with just enough power plants to run it. Think rocket-sled.

Larger ships should always move slower than smaller ships - even if they devote an equal percentage of space to engines.

Larger ships will have other means of travelling long distances (you've already found hints at two methods).

Big ships should be able to achieve 5 - 7 T/ph without devoting their entire space to engines. Those ships that do devote their entire space to engines shouldn't move all that much faster than 12 T/ph (depending on their size).

It would be nice if there was some benefit in having 1 large engine and 2 smaller engines or multiple engine types. EG: 1 Large Engine with 2 Smaller ones might take up less room than 2 Large Engines and maybe use less power but still move at a reasonable speed.

There's obviously some sort of thrust, sc and pu consideration in all of this to balance it all. Cost is a factor too but I won't look at that more deeply until I re-work trading.

 

[deus101]

BAH! I wasted my initial 500 clicks fucking around and forgetting where the stations where.

 

[Wild Slop]

for the scanerless directionless

A goodwill basic star map

--- The Core ---

[-5,8] Ahbet
[-6,-7] Jola-7
[-11,-10] The Edge
[ 6,-9 ] Melcar Mining

--- "uncharted" ----

[47,-62] Lonak Research
[73,27] JK-Weapons Sys
[21,56] HWD Lab
[-43,-18] Eitec Industries
[-13,85] Laser Beam Test Facility
[-74,88] Aulos *Only one of several planets in this system that isn't barren.

 

[villain of the story]

I demand avatars for ships so you see ships' avatars in sectors. Might as well go fullblown next-gen since the game has turned shit.

I'd like this to be my ship avatar:

 

[DarkUnderlord]

What is and what isn't supposed to happen are way too retarded arguments and shit is way too fucking astronomically expensive to afford when the biggest ship size is to be 1K anyway, ie. credit-grinding will be an abysmal job, no different than just about any zombie-grind game out there.

Before the FUCK-UP(tm), growth of wealth was balanced by these astronomical prices. Look at the top 10 fat jews:

1. Relationship (Faceless Man) $24,498,890,168,177,000
2. Implausibly Large (Legion of Idiots) $389,877,450,449,250
3. Squish Tickle (Wild Slop) $788,169,302,610
4. ToddHowardiser (villain of the story) $774,902,639,449

Stats as of now:

• 1. Relationship (Faceless Man) $24,498,890,168,177,000
  2. Implausibly Large (Legion of Idiots) $389,866,550,780,020
  3. ToddHowardiser (villain of the story) $932,777,393,116

So you made $157,874,753,667 - that is one-hundred and fifty seven billion dollars - since posting that this afternoon, so that now you're sitting on a $932 billion dollar fortune and yet you're whining about people's inability to make insane amounts of money?

The most expensive piece of equipment in the game is the Nova reactor at a base price of $298 million. With your total net worth you could buy 3,122 of them, which incidentally would require a ship with 17 million structural capacity - or over size 200,000 with the standard 80 Hull... a size that clearly ships were never meant to get anywhere near... and yet somehow things are stupidly expensive?

With just one third of that cash you can easily buy a size 1,000 ship, fit it out with weapons and go nuts and kill practically any of the other players in the game with atk and def ratings in the thousands which would be more than a match against any of the ships in the top 25 (excluding "the biggest two who exploited" as you said). And yet you reckon you don't have enough cash to go nuts killing things?

Riiight.

Now, shit will take too much time and money to even patch up a combat ship.

I took on Faceless Man when he was size... 10,000 I think? With a size 200 or so ship and almost killed him in 5 rounds. That was before the combat system was re-balanced even more in favour of smaller ships.

Sadly Faceless Man has now learned the value of high mobility weapons and due to his sheer size does mean a fairly hefty ship has to go up against him because even 1% of his heavy weapons hitting can hit hard and even though his high mobility weapons do pissant damage, he has enough of them that it adds up- but a size 5,000 can survive a couple of rounds and dish out a few million damage to him depending exactly on how it's fitted out - which seems about right given the comparative sizes (Size 500k vs a ship 1% that size).

Also sadly, a size 5,000 ship does cost about $5 Trillion which you shouldn't be getting anywhere near now but again, considering Faceless Man's size 500,000 costs somewhere in the vicinity of $54,629,169,838,314,212 that seems cheap by comparison. Either way, Faceless Man will be dealt with soon enough and if you have a brain, you should be realising that 5 Trillion out of however you say that other number is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. Which if you work it backwards, means size 1,000 ships should be very, very afraid of much smaller and significantly cheaper ships.

That said I'm still gathering combat data before I re-balance the weapons but as it stands, believe me when I say that small, cheap ships have a good chance of taking out the big guns. The only downside is that yes, it does take a couple of rounds - but are you really bitching that you can't one-hit things? 'cause I guarantee you that if I made one-hit kills possible, you'd be the first to bitch about your size 1k ship being one-hit killed.

 

[Kayerts]

I took on Faceless Man when he was size... 10,000 I think? With a size 200 or so ship and almost killed him in 5 rounds. That was before the combat system was re-balanced even more in favour of smaller ships.

It was actually size ~3300 vs 70, but basically the same ratio. I'm not totally confident that combat was rebalanced in favor of smaller ships, though, since I think at the time there was a bug that made bigger ships do no/negligible damage to sufficiently smaller ones. Still, you're very right about big ships needing to fear smaller ones, mostly for two reasons:

(1) Getting big becomes increasingly inefficient cost-wise, in terms of credits to combat benefits.
(2) Getting big is also inefficient combat-wise, since standard weapons do around ten times the damage per SC that turrets do.

Anyway, I already said this in the in-game commlink, but in case anyone else shared Villain's concerns: the two big ships aren't a threat. They don't actually hunt little guys. They sometimes hover over planets, where occasionally little guys attack them, for reasons that escape me. (Maybe they think all 40K of the Implausibly Large's turrets will miss? I guess they feel lucky.) Regardless, they don't seek out combat. They are an utter nonfactor in PvP. The only reason they have guns at all are for PvE encounters, in which they are by far the underdogs.

If you still want to form a Rebel Alliance to try to assassinate the rightful Emperor and Defender of Mankind, be my guest, but (a) DU is probably going to solve that particular problem for you and (b) until then, they can be safely ignored.*
*Also, you will probably die if you try. But the price of liberty is eternal vigilance and/or oblivion.

Regarding the thrust formula, I'll try to work something out. There are some dynamics that make the function nontrivial to design (differing hull sizes, power efficiency scaling favorably with size, etc.), and there a few parameters I have to guess at, but the goals provided should be plenty to work with.

 

[deus101]

the hell...i dont even have a POWER SOURCE...i was sure i bought one....

Damnit....can someone blow me up so i can start anew

 

[villain of the story]

So you made $157,874,753,667 - that is one-hundred and fifty seven billion dollars - since posting that this afternoon, so that now you're sitting on a $932 billion dollar fortune and yet you're whining about people's inability to make insane amounts of money?

Obviously it was the last time I made any significant sum like that due to the new thrust formula. I had to spend all the clicks I had left, which was a meager 500, on those last trade rounds. Now I've downsized my ship from 2500 to 473, replaced all Cijaa engines with the much more space efficient AGA9 engines (as many as my 5 Nova generators can power) and now I get 5.01 clicks as opposed to 1.88 from before. YAY SO MANY CLICKSES, CANT WAIT TO SEE IT MAX AT 500 IN 4 DAYS AGAIN!!

The most expensive piece of equipment in the game is the Nova reactor at a base price of $298 million. With your total net worth you could buy 3,122 of them, which incidentally would require a ship with 17 million structural capacity - or over size 200,000 with the standard 80 Hull... a size that clearly ships were never meant to get anywhere near... and yet somehow things are stupidly expensive?

Why do say that when you also say:

Also sadly, a size 5,000 ship does cost about $5 Trillion which you shouldn't be getting anywhere near now

I wasn't getting anywhere near that size then; even enlarging my ship from 1000-and-something to 2500 had cost me nearly all of my credits -around 600B at the time- and earning that amount back wasn't exactly a day's job; and not an inch further now, now we're out of precious clicks.

With just one third of that cash you can easily buy a size 1,000 ship, fit it out with weapons and go nuts and kill practically any of the other players in the game with atk and def ratings in the thousands which would be more than a match against any of the ships in the top 25 (excluding "the biggest two who exploited" as you said). And yet you reckon you don't have enough cash to go nuts killing things?

And from where exactly would these clicks required for chasing and attacking ships with my size 1000 ship come? Kind of impossible when the highest Thrust you can possibly have with a ship at that size is around 3 (three) and that is with the *entire* structural capacity used up on engines. Anything less and the thrust is something pathethic in the 1.0 to 2.0 range. So yeah, great math skills there!

Now, shit will take too much time and money to even patch up a combat ship.

I took on Faceless Man when he was size... 10,000 I think? With a size 200 or so ship and almost killed him in 5 rounds. That was before the combat system was re-balanced even more in favour of smaller ships.

Also sadly, a size 5,000 ship does cost about $5 Trillion which you shouldn't be getting anywhere near now but again, considering Faceless Man's size 500,000 costs somewhere in the vicinity of $54,629,169,838,314,212 that seems cheap by comparison. Either way, Faceless Man will be dealt with soon enough and if you have a brain, you should be realising that 5 Trillion out of however you say that other number is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. Which if you work it backwards, means size 1,000 ships should be very, very afraid of much smaller and significantly cheaper ships.

Clicks, man. It's all about the fucking clicks. Not enough clicks = no trading = no money = no combat. Yes, I could quickly burn through what money I have so far amassed real quick for a few fun combat rounds and then never get even close to the same level of wealth since bigger the ship, less clicks and less trade rounds.

I'm not bitching about not one-hitting anything or stuff being too expensive. I'm bitching that the new thrust scheme sucks ass and takes away all the opportunity unless you are insignificantly small to ever see any substantial benefit from trading. I don't care if you make it so that a small ship could enter the asshole of my 1K sized ship, avoid all attacks and pull a one-hit Death Star anus run on me. I just want the precious clicks back. CLICKSES! WE LIKES CLICKSES!

 

[Johannes]

Anyway, I already said this in the in-game commlink, but in case anyone else shared Villain's concerns: the two big ships aren't a threat. They don't actually hunt little guys. They sometimes hover over planets, where occasionally little guys attack them, for reasons that escape me. (Maybe they think all 40K of the Implausibly Large's turrets will miss? I guess they feel lucky.)

Because there's not so much to do so might as well try the combat system out - how many misses until my mobility 16 ship gets hit?

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

He's probably stuffed with 50% mobility weapons, which means ~50% chance to hit per weapon X a million squillion bajillion guns. So, I wouldn't try that if I were you.

Also, I've toyed with the engines formula, came up with this:

1. TPH = 1 + rto/size, as before
2. Instead of directly scaling TPH, scale the power requirements non-linearly.
3. In order to achieve benefit from multiple engine types, scale their power requirements individually.
4. The form of PU scaling should be of the form:

 Total PU required = base pu * number of engines * scale factor

Where the scale factor is of the form:

scale factor = 1 + A * log10(number of engines)^B

A,B should be tailored for every engine to produce reasonable results. I've seen decent results with A = 10, B = 3.5 for Plasma engines and A = 5, B = 8 for Cijaas (haven't messed with Judsons yet).

Alternately, just build a lookup table with custom numbers that suit you, or do so in Excel for a few points and interpolate with your curve of choice.

Also, if you choose this route, you should give a heads up so players can prepare.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I just want the precious clicks back. CLICKSES! WE LIKES CLICKSES!

Fuck you and fuck your clickses!

4. The form of PU scaling should be of the form:

I thought of that and decided I didn't want to. Currently the formula that runs Thrust is the same one that works scanners and comms too - and they seem to be fine. Then again I did manage to spend a bit more time on those. I don't want to go down the path of messing with power because I think that's just going to add more headaches when it comes to working shit out.

At this stage I've been designing larger engines and the formula I have is good in one respect: I can have massive engines with insane rto but worse rto / sc ratios than smaller engines but because there's a diminishing return by number of engines, less is actually better. The only downside is that yes, adding one smaller engine reduces the overall thrust. I can tweak that but it may not be what I want. The other downside is it creates an absolute limit. There's a point where adding more engines is useless and you may as well just forgo them all and stick with your +1 Thrust. Which is just stupid.

Part of the decisions involved is the distance between systems too and just how far you should really be able to travel. How many days it takes to get to another system and so on - though I'll hopefully have another solution for that too shortly.

Anyway, I've done a temp "fix" until I work something out.

 

[villain of the story]

 

[Kayerts]

I thought of that and decided I didn't want to. Currently the formula that runs Thrust is the same one that works scanners and comms too - and they seem to be fine. Then again I did manage to spend a bit more time on those.

No, those don't work, either; it's just harder to tell that this isn't intentional. Scanner range drops if you add a low range computer of a higher information density. This didn't seem jarringly illogical to me at first, but it's not like you get "data" information on objects that exceed the "data" range; buying a data computer just shrinks your scanner range for no apparent reason.

It's more noticeable with comm scanners, where your data banks can shrink if you buy additional comm devices. (Unrelatedly, I don't see value in additional comm devices, aside from more storage; it's not like we were running out of frequency range.)

Anyway, non-monotonicity (i.e., this property) is an undesirable quality in a diminishing return function. I don't understand why you want to handle diminishing returns on a per-equipment basis. Doesn't it make a lot more sense to do diminishing returns based on the sum of the conferred quantity (or sum and size, in the case of thrust)? So, for example, instead of doing this weird thing whereby:

2x comm. devices with 22 data banks = 36 data storage
2x comm. devices with 22 data banks + 1x comm device with 5 data banks = 33 data storage (somehow)

because you're dividing out the number of units of equipment, why not just calculate raw data banks and plot it on some asymptotic function? So:

2x comm. devices with 22 data banks = 44 rdb; someAsymptoticFunction(44) = 36
2x comm. devices with 22 data banks + 1x comm device with 5 data banks = 49 rdb; someAsymptoticFunction(49) = say 37

I saw what you wrote about big engines, but that seems like a complication whose sole impact on gameplay is to handicap size, which you can do much more straightforwardly through directly hobbling size in the the thrust calculations.

 

[Ninja Cartographer]

Flying Saucer spotted at -139, -138, hanging around an asteroid field.