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Blackspace!

Discussion in 'Blackspace' started by ElectricOtter, Jun 18, 2011.

?

What do you think about Blackspace?

  1. Pretty cool. Smarten it up, add loads more shit and I'd pay $5 for it.

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. It's good for what it is.

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. Meh. It was fun for 5 mins.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Blackspace?

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  1. Shannow Waster of Time

    Shannow
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    6,386
    Location:
    Finnegan's Wake
    WTF?!? So I'm suddenly thousands in the negative in SC and PU, you hide where I could sell half of my weapons systems AND you won't allow me to buy additional hulls (and later reactors) to get positive?
    I am butthurt.
     
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  2. SoupNazi rial billionaire Patron

    SoupNazi
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2010
    Messages:
    5,076
    Location:
    DX:HR Fanboy Central
    Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands
    me too. also my second ship was destroyed by faggalon so i'm double butthurt. :(

    at least he then got destroyed by faceless. karmic justice!
     
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  3. Jedi_Learner Liturgist

    Jedi_Learner
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    894
    [​IMG]

    I didn't know you were both the same player. :oops: Sorry. I wanted to avenge you!
     
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  4. Kayerts Arcane

    Kayerts
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    It was less karmic justice than me noticing that two spacebros were having a party and forgot to invite me. No doubt this was an oversight, one that I graciously chose to rectify.

    Regarding the reactors, there are at least five space stations and one dockable planet outside the Core. You can buy advanced reactors at at least two of these locations. Explore!

    @DarkUnderlord: The new weapons are interesting; I like the fact that the different stations have distinct identities now. I only wish I could refit my ship and try them out. :) Though with my new, retarded, regular-hull-loaded ship, I *might* be able to take out the Entity, armor-piercing death rays and all . . .
     
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  5. SoupNazi rial billionaire Patron

    SoupNazi
    Joined:
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    Location:
    DX:HR Fanboy Central
    Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands
    It's okay. I'm just trying to test out the works of the combat system by myself so I fight pretty much everyone.
     
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  6. SqueakyFox Novice

    SqueakyFox
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    3000 BC
    woah there's a thread for this?
    and a forum?
     
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  7. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    26,626
    Ok, try that again.

    I've mulled that over and decided to keep Hull sale prices as they are at 1/3 base price. The point is not to be able to sit on your fat ass and make X Quadrillion out of gaming the differences in Hull prices. If you need money, you trade for it. Likewise, the point is not to dump everything you have and walk out as a battleship without it costing you anything. Ships are supposed to get more expensive as you get bigger, exponentially so and re-fitting should take some time and effort to get the funds together (both in trading and / or visit the necessary Stations looking for what you want). Essentially that forces you to think about your decisions a bit more before you make them - and mull over the type of ship you want to build and how you're going to build it.

    Also the theory was that it's *your* ship size that costs so much to whack on extra hulls. Taking that expensive Hull off and selling it though is still 1 Hull which another customer would be buying at the basic Hull price (it's a massive loss proposition for the dealer if he's buying it off you at 1/3 *your* current price but then selling that 2nd-Hand Hull to someone for 1/100th of that price again).
     
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  8. Kayerts Arcane

    Kayerts
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    Well, with the current configuration of shipyards, I think you actually fixed the worst part of the prior price curve exploit: if you restored 1/3 full prices, players still wouldn't be able to make money without traveling significantly, and then only under favorable conditions. And the different shipyards are sufficiently far apart that you wouldn't see wealth growth anywhere near like what it was when we figured out the hull profit loop. I suspect it'd be a great deal more effort for the trillionaire to increase his wealth by 40% this way than it is for millionaires or billionaires to see similar proportional gains from trading resources.

    The main reason I'd like it to change is that the current hull sale model creates a lot of lock-in at every step of ship development, and that seems bad. In particular, it seems at odds with the combat system, the primary interesting feature of which is that it encourages players to adapt. The main decision you make in combat is how to outfit your ship differently to face different threats; consequently, limiting your ability to refit the ship seems to limit that interesting dynamic.

    As a secondary issue, grinding still confers an advantage; it's just a smaller advantage. You can regard this as a positive or negative thing; on the positive side, it slows down the rate at which people get ridiculous, but on the negative side, it encourages players to avoid risk. This is because if you increase the amount of time a player has to spend to recover after getting destroyed, he's going to play more conservatively. Again, you can regard this as a good or bad thing; I regard it as a very bad one, since there isn't very much action in the game as it is. Whereas if the time to recovery is low, you get to see people trying wacky experimental builds to take down specific behemoths, and challenging each other to reckless space duels, and not being afraid to take shots at various menacing geometric shapes that appear, and generally making the game more interesting.

    Edit: Although large numbers of rampaging spacebeasts to kill for comparatively hefty amounts of spacemoney would probably be a better way to achieve this balance. Basically, everything is better with more rampaging spacebeasts.
     
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  9. hoverdog dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive Developer

    hoverdog
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
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    5,589
    Location:
    Jordan, Minnesota
    Project: Eternity
    Add slylandro probes please.
     
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  10. Scott Pakin Novice

    Scott Pakin
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4
    Does this mean that a big ship with decent T/ph (say, 25) will have about 15% to hit chance vs. small fighters (of the same T/ph)?
     
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  11. Kayerts Arcane

    Kayerts
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    How do crits work?

    Apologies if this was intended for that future discussion, but I don't see how this guarantees a crit. Wasn't crit chance previously determined as 10% of to-hit chance? Because then it would seem like you'd need a 1000% chance to hit in order to guarantee a crit.
     
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  12. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    26,626
    What Hulls appear at what stations is going to change though (long-term) - with eventually players determining what is available and what isn't based on trading resources.

    The only lock-in is SC vs Hull and Armour strength and I'm not upset about that. Ideally I want people to spend lots of money on a ship but get to a point where spending that extra $100M to buy another Hull isn't really worth it. Better off to bank your cash, then go out and have some fun - and if you die buy a new ship. Weapons and all other Equipment is easily interchangeable with the only drawback being cost - but as I've mentioned before, I want trading to be the pre-dominant money earner. Lock-in ships to some degree is designed to make it so you can't become a big-ass Jack-of-All Trades - without running the risk that a Big-Ass "Fuck Cargo Holds, I added more guns!" won't take you out. So you'll have to decide between all-out trading to maximise quick profits vs a heavily defended ship with some guns but only a few holds.

    The game has a few more things coming that should add to the list of things you can do beyond trading and killing.

    Indeed it is.

    If their mobility is equal, yes. As soon as I have the new formula in though, large ships will be much slower (7ish T/ph) with very low to zero mobility. When that happens, chances drop down to around 1 - 5% (assuming the small Fighter boosts his mobility with some equipment).

    If the weapon says 10% chance to cause a crit, than it has a 10% chance of your chance to hit to cause a crit. So if you have a 15% chance to hit and the weapon has a 35% crit rate, you have a 5.25% chance to hit and cause a crit (out of 100%).

    That sentence should read: "That of course would guarantee a hit every time and greatly increase your chance to cause a critical."

    In an unrelated matter, I've altered how the attack / defense ratings are calculated.
     
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  13. Baron Arcane

    Baron
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,887
    I used to have 15,000+ defensive rating, now it's on 5,000. Only different thing was that I think there was an update at 2pm AEST, and I hit ship size 1,000. Otherwise not much changed.

    System change? Bug? Advanced alien attack indistinguishable from magic?


    edit - I should read whole posts.
     
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  14. Kayerts Arcane

    Kayerts
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    That seems like the best solution.

    7 Tph barely lets you play the game, though. Is that intentional? If the goal there is combat balance, making relative size have greater impact on the formula seems like a better solution. If the goal's actually to increase the action gap between big and small ships, it seems better to speed up small ships than to cripple big ones, especially in light of the expanding universe.

    Even if you go with the crippling route, though, 7 seems too low for a floor. In a 24-hour period, you don't even accumulate enough clicks to check out a jack-o-lantern and get back to the Core.


    Edit: Just wanted to say, the Vanguard fight was the most entertaining thing I've seen in the game so far. I did run into a serious bug, but I've PMed you about it.

    In case anyone cares or would be amused to watch me yell at a computer, here's a log of the battle:

     
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  15. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
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    7,428
    Location:
    Villainville
    MCA
    Nice that DU keeps nerfing the game and at the same time, wants people to try to screw each other by spending those trillions they will never earn on things they will never be rich enough to buy, now that the game is getting nerfed. Great plan.
     
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  16. Wild Slop Arcane

    Wild Slop
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,212
    Location:
    Crow's Nest
    That's a bit dramatic.
    In jumping into the developing game as fast as (we) did, one should expect to see changes like this.
    Consider yourself just as much a tester as a player and um keep watching the skies!
     
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  17. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    26,626
    Originally the max Tph I was working off was 36 for a small ship, which would give 864 Clicks per 24 hour period, while large ships would drop to around 7 Tph - depending on how many Engines etc... The game is being designed in such a way that about that many clicks will be plenty. The more astute will realise there's a couple of things that have not been implemented yet in order for that to happen.

    The idea is that a Juggernaut shouldn't be able to run off to another System, check it-out, then get back home again in a single day. Scouting is for fast, agile ships - not big, slow-ass mother-fuckers. If a big ship wants to head to another system, they'll need to save clicks and prep for the journey. Depending on the distance, you'll have enough to get there and be able to check it out a bit / rape and pillage a few people before docking / finding a place to hide / retreating. Then the next day you spend trading or what-not in that system.

    This is one of the many sacrifices you will be making by choosing to be a large moving wall of impenetrable steel that's bristling with guns.

    Hopefully that's been fixed now.

    If by nerf you mean stopping an exploit where people were sitting on their fat asses at one station, never moving and gaming the system by selling Hulls earning Quadrillions of dollars - rather than risking their ship by trading? Yes, I will continue to nerf the game in that manner. :P

    Simply put, ships > 1,000 shouldn't exist¹. The only thing I've done is be kind by not resetting everyone after I fixed that money exploit (prices and weapons will be re-worked accordingly when that happens) - ostensibly because I actually wanted to test a couple of things because as Kayerts found, there's quite some substantial bugs in the combat system at the moment. And fixing bugs means I'm not developing new content.

    ¹There are things that happen when numbers get too big, like the money limit I had to expand and issues with the combat system when it has to loop through ten-thousand guns. All of which add load and size to the database. Depending on how many players, super-huge ships would become a major issue down the track. As it is the interface barely has enough room to display Faceless' ship defense values.
     
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  18. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    26,626
    I wanted to respond to Baron's stuff which I've been going through on and off over the past few days.

    I'm pretty confident this will be handled by increasing Hull costs. There'll just get a point where adding that one extra Hull isn't worth it cost-wise, just to fit one extra big gun onboard. Some items will also have a J-Curve on them (like Engines) so the bigger you get, the worse the return. Other things will have some other curves on them - mainly things where there are limits (like scanning range), I intend on having curves that are big enough that you never really quite reach the limit without going over-board (IE: 100x Scanners might get you max range). Hopefully this will lead to different strategies (like a ship focussed on exploring using all its room on scanners and engines and sacrificing combat).

    No.

    Yes.

    Don't know. I certainly agree with the "no fleets / train of ships" angle as I prefer a single ship focused game, where people form alliances to work together and get what they want. Boarding at this stage though, is another complexity in the combat system that I want to avoid. The ramming... well basic physics says anything accelerated at speed is a lethal weapon and I don't really get why they don't just have tiny ships in Star Trek that they just launch at warp speed directly into their enemies' hulls but I guess it ruins the ambiance.

    No. Ultimately too complicated for what I want in combat.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Maybe. Little uncertain on blanket good / bad / karma ratings in general though.

    At the moment, my exploration strategy is that everything will run out. Sectors will run out of resources when they've been mined, forcing people to move on. Different sectors will have different raw resources available which may make trade required. Some people may look for ideal sectors where many resources are available and so on. Or attack someone for their sector of awesome resources. Geological tools / scanners that tell you how big a resource is will be handy in that sense - so you know how decent an ore deposit you've found.
     
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  19. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
    Joined:
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    Villainville
    MCA
    I've earned every cent of my wealth through trading [​IMG] It's an excruciating wait for those perfect Robotics surges to put my 100110 cubits of cargo hold and 1500+ accumulated clicks to use. If you take that away, "making money" will be insufferably hard. Right now, it's only sufferably hard. Maybe hard isn't the correct word. It's senseless amounts of senseless grind to earn the ability to have a few seconds of fun in combat. Establishing some sort of system for automated income with risks and upkeep might encourage everyone into combat better since it's hard to catch someone as it is now, ie. time better spent on making money instead of a likely hopeless chase.
     
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  20. Baron Arcane

    Baron
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,887
    Thanks for that, DU.
     
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  21. Konjad High on potatoes Patron

    Konjad
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    16,086
    Location:
    Namoluk
    Strap Yourselves In Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    :O
     
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  22. Kayerts Arcane

    Kayerts
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    explanation

    Regarding your other question, the Rubik's cube, in conjunction with the air freshener, the bobblehead doll, and the fuzzy dice, allows you to travel outside the core system.
     
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  23. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
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    Location:
    Villainville
    MCA
    I think I found a new bug:

    I'm stuck.

    I tried buying another Large Cargo Hold and buying, selling and jettisoning stuff to see if it would correct itself but it won't work. I've got dead weight I can't get rid of.
     
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  24. Gold Augur Patron

    Gold
    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Dead State Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
    He should just do that to everybody with over 100 billion credits so we can catch up.

    Also, I would love a new engine type and does anybody know where I can sell my # (L.TCR-9b) Thermonuclear Core (2x) # Gen-C "Bainbridge" Nuclear Power Plant (1x).

    It seems they might not exist anymore?

    Thanks.
     
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