Editorial Bloodlines - We may never pass this way again

[poocolator]

One of the many things I admire about Bethesda is their work ethic. Their game don't always succeed...

Are you being sarcastic? They have a work ethic driven by sales figures; and it shows in their games. There's nothing noble about what it is they do. Also, their games DO succeed... at least in accomplishing the goals Bethesda set for them-- making money. See, Bethesda is good at setting and accomplishing goals, so where the crux then lies is in which goals they do set, and from what we've seen, those goals involve the gamer's purse moreso than experience.

...but at least they are always stuffed with content

grass, trees & copy-pasted buildings.

... rich, dense worlds to explore...

A quick in-game buck is always easily attainable, and dimwitted, one-dimensional NPCs, around every corner.

... tons of subtle nuances (collecting plants for alchemy, et cetera).

Easily implemented, but done so without discretion leading to a tedious, mini-game-esque, and all-around uninteresting, experience.

 

[Dionysus]

Deus Ex and Bloodlines. Everything else is bit-garbage.

Bloodlines isn’t in the same league as Deus Ex. It’s a second-tier action-RPG like The Witcher and FO3. In Bloodlines, the gameplay and quest design falter early and often.

I'll have to say that one thing really irritated me in Bloodlines, perhaps more so becuase it could have easily been fixed. It's the fact that I couldn't lie to Lacroix.

Yeah, that was part of the biggest problem with the narrative. I remember when I was forced to rat on Nines even though LaCroix was an enormous douchebag and Nines saved my life twice (once when LaCroix wanted to kill me). That's just ridiculous.

 

[poocolator]

Deus Ex and Bloodlines. Everything else is bit-garbage.

Bloodlines isn’t in the same league as Deus Ex. It’s a second-tier action-RPG like The Witcher and FO3. In Bloodlines, the gameplay and quest design falter early and often.

I'll have to say that one thing really irritated me in Bloodlines, perhaps more so becuase it could have easily been fixed. It's the fact that I couldn't lie to Lacroix.

Yeah, that was part of the biggest problem with the narrative. I remember when I was forced to rat on Nines even though LaCroix was an enormous douchebag and Nines saved my life twice (once when LaCroix wanted to kill me). That's just ridiculous.

No. You're second tier.

 

[Longshanks]

Deus Ex and Bloodlines. Everything else is bit-garbage.

Bloodlines isn’t in the same league as Deus Ex. It’s a second-tier action-RPG like The Witcher and FO3. In Bloodlines, the gameplay and quest design falter early and often.

It's a better game than Deus Ex, certainly a better RPG (especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

 

[Forest Dweller]

(especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

It's also an rpg.

 

[Dionysus]

It's a better game than Deus Ex, certainly a better RPG (especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

I don't really care if you think Bloodlines is a better acronym than Deus Ex, but I would like to hear why you think it's a better game. I think Bloodlines has some advantages in eye and ear candy, but Deus Ex beats it in just about every gameplay-related category.

Bloodlines struck me as a Deus Ex knock-off that had great promise, but came up short on a regular basis. Critics like to rag on the later missions, but the shortcomings were apparent in the first chapter. I realized that something was wrong when I hit the Zelda-style puzzle-room in Slashterpiece. It wasn't even close to Deus Ex.

 

[HanoverF]

(especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

It's also an rpg.

It's also ass.

 

[Forest Dweller]

(especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

It's also an rpg.

It's also ass.

It's also hard to appreciate for your average dumbfuck on the streets.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Bloodlines has

- puzzles
- platformer bits
- bosses that jump in and out of the room you are fighting in
- scripted cinematic style bits like Ocean House Hotel
- second rate stealth missions involving simply crawling up one vent and then jumping into another
- bosses that you kill through puzzle style shortcuts

It is liked a dumbed down console port that was never released for consoles.

It does not deserve to lick Deus Ex's boots.

 

[Longshanks]

It's a better game than Deus Ex, certainly a better RPG (especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

I don't really care if you think Bloodlines is a better acronym than Deus Ex, but I would like to hear why you think it's a better game. I think Bloodlines has some advantages in eye and ear candy, but Deus Ex beats it in just about every gameplay-related category.

Bloodlines struck me as a Deus Ex knock-off that had great promise, but came up short on a regular basis. Critics like to rag on the later missions, but the shortcomings were apparent in the first chapter. I realized that something was wrong when I hit the Zelda-style puzzle-room in Slashterpiece. It wasn't even close to Deus Ex.

Okay. In short - Bloodlines had better writing, better characters, in fact some of the best NPC interaction of any game, more interesting quests (many, particulary in the first half, with real choices), much stronger character system, was less mission-based, and lacked the annoying false choices of Deus Ex, it did have a bit of the unreal faction reactions to actions, but not nearly as bad as Deus Ex. Deus Ex is a good game, but fell a little flat for me given the weak faction play, fake choices and being a rather clunky FPS and an anaemic RPG. It started to grate on me in the second half when I realised that it didn't much matter how much I pissed of the various factions, they'd still want to work with me. Combat was pretty poor in both, not sure I could pick a winner there, though Bloodlines was definitely less clunky. The encounters in Deus Ex were mostly well designed (better than Bloodlines), the fairly open exploration in each mission was a nice change from corridor shooters and the atmosphere was suitably dark and X-Filesy. I feel Deus Ex lacked focus, and for instance enjoyed NOLF more for that reason. A similar type experience but more focused on FPS play, and more successful for it.

I'd not rate Bloodlines as miles ahead of Deus Ex, but still a sizable distance. Part of this is down to my preference for RPGs over FPSs, but there are FPS or FPS-likes that I prefer over Bloodlines - Thief and System Shocks for example - Deus Ex is just not one of them.

 

[Tardvapor]

go play counterstrike

Hah, maybe I wasn't completely clear, but I was talking about shooting for good FPP real time RPG design. There's nothing else in the genre worth a damn, not with modern weapons anyway.

Go play fallout 3.

I don't get this pro-hybrid game bias. I mean, I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I felt Bloodlines combat was really far too inclined on twitching rather than building up your character properly.

Building your character properly in Bloodlines merely involved putting points into a few basic combat skills and buying equipment that was automatically made available to you by Mercurio and Fat Larry only as the game progressed.

When I played Bloodlines I didn't put any points into combat for a long time and got my ass royally kicked whenever my stealth failed me or I was forced to fight. The demon thingy in the art museum and that guy in the sewer downtown took at least 5 or 6 reloads with me throwing everything I had at em. Ever tried using firearms without the firearms skill?

And as far as I know Fat Larry doesn't sell you any weapons until you sell him a weapon first so he knows you're legit. Pretty cool IMO.

Combat is definitely not the games strong suit, but i felt it was adequate. And there's something to be said for any game that doesn't sacrifice RPG elements just because they have a flamethrower in there.

On the bloodlines vs. deus ex thing I seem to have instigated:

I'd consider Bloodlines an RPG with shooter elements and Deus Ex a Shooter with rpg elements. Overall I think I prefer Deus Ex, but I'd rate them almost evenly. They both do different things very well.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Just for the hell of it...

- puzzles

How's that a bad thing? They're used sparingly, don't conflict with the RPG elements (like say Baldur's Gate and it's riddles), and aren't ever totally detached.

- platformer bits

It's an action RPG. And they were very infrequent. Maybe in 3 or 4 missions. They also aren't a bad thing. They weren't done superbly, but they were far from terrible in Bloodlines.

- bosses that jump in and out of the room you are fighting in

What's wrong with that? It's a legitimate design decision to make certain patterns in a boss monster's repertoire invulnerable or away from player character attack.

- scripted cinematic style bits like Ocean House Hotel

This...I can sort of agree on. They are very good on their first playthrough, but do become rather boring on subsequent games.

- second rate stealth missions involving simply crawling up one vent and then jumping into another

Uh....you sure about that? The stealth missions in Bloodlines were actually pretty well done. I remember cameras to disable in the Museum, multiple routes on the ship, and plenty of sneakery when dealing with the Society of Leopold.

Also, it's kind of funny you mention stealth by vents when trying to slam Bloodlines and praise Deus Ex. I mean....your complaint would fit a lot better with Deus Ex and it's love for conveniently placed ventilation shafts.

- bosses that you kill through puzzle style shortcuts

And? It's a legitimate design decision. It can very easily go sour, but when done well can mix up boss fights nicely. The one in Bloodlines, with the Sheriff's second form, was done alright. The real threat in that boss fight were the swarms of enemies preventing you from easy access to the lights.

 

[Andhaira]

Anyone recall the minimum sys requirements for Bloodlines?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

(especially as Deus Ex is an FPS).

It's also an rpg.

It's just Deus Ex.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I am glad it worked for you, Edward.

But I personally found it all to be a strange mish-mash of stuff.

See, like what you say about Ocean House hotel. I think the same applies to the other stuff in the game. Once you figure out how to do this one puzzle, there is no more replayability left in it. Once you figure out the shortcut to beating the boss, it's simply about using that shortcut, and all the dynamic choices of combat are thrown out of the window.

I am surprised that you don't like God Of War, but defend the same things that God Of War had, only those things are expected of a console platforming game. :D

 

[davioneer]

Is Bloodlines really that nice...?
I'm having second thoughts if I should download this one...
I've been a fan of TROIKA coz they make cool games not like those MMORPGs which are really piontless...
I could include this one on my blog about arcanum because the makers are the same, right?
you could visit it here----http://www.arcanum-of-steamworks-and-magick-obscura.webs.com---

 

[Tardvapor]

Did I really just read a complaint about Ocean House Hotel?

Subsequent playthroughs be damned. It takes 10 minutes when you know what you're doing, and if you didn't like it the first time through I suggest you start dropping mass quantities of LSD to get the juices in the right hemisphere of your brain flowing.

It is liked a dumbed down console port that was never released for consoles.

Nuh uh, yer a console port.

Anyone recall the minimum sys requirements for Bloodlines?

17 I think, or maybe 19. It was definitely prime though.

 

[Xor]

Deus Ex was a great FPS/RPG hybrid, a rare example of genre mixing done right. It had an interesting setting and a good plot.

Bloodlines has very little C&C, most of the time dialog options lead to the same outcome. On the other hand, the NPCs are beautifully done, fully animated and with voices that match their personalities. Also, the environments are amazing. The overall 'tone' of the game is very consistent.

Both games have strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Both are still good games.

 

[Dionysus]

Okay. In short - Bloodlines had better writing, better characters, in fact some of the best NPC interaction of any game, more interesting quests (many, particulary in the first half, with real choices), much stronger character system, was less mission-based, and lacked the annoying false choices of Deus Ex, it did have a bit of the unreal faction reactions to actions, but not nearly as bad as Deus Ex.

I can understand why you might like the story better in Bloodlines, because that's largely subjective. But I don't see any consistent advantages in terms of gameplay. The character system had more skills in Bloodlines, but the skills mattered less because it had more linear missions with few options. You couldn't bluff your way past the blood monster in Slashterpiece, or even jimmy the doors that magically locked when it appeared. The level design was pathetic compared to Deus Ex, and some of the levels (like the Oceanside Hotel) were completely vacuous. It's really telling that Bloodlines was the game with a bunch of speech skills, but Deus Ex was the game that let you bypass two major bosses with dialog.

And I don't even know what you are talking about when you mention false choices. Both games funneled you through a set story, but Bloodlines had a worse narrative for an RPG. I couldn't possibly pick the lock to see Gary in the first chapter, so I was forced to do stupid quests for the Malkavian even though I knew exactly what was going on. My conversations with LaCroix were nearly irrelevant. No matter what I said, I was forced to keep doing jobs for him. I was forced to turn in one of the few sympathetic characters that saved my life twice. Deus Ex handles this much better by setting you up as an agent that is torn between his duty and his family/morailty. In Bloodlines you are forced to be a lapdog for the biggest douchebag in the game for no good reason.

Uh....you sure about that? The stealth missions in Bloodlines were actually pretty well done. I remember cameras to disable in the Museum, multiple routes on the ship, and plenty of sneakery when dealing with the Society of Leopold.

The sneaking in Bloodlines wasn't very good. It was too easy, and even worse, there were levels that seemed to be designed by someone that didn't know that the game had a crouch button or two sneaky character classes. Some of the later missions had unintentionally hilarious moments like vampires that bust through walls or commandos that crash through the ceiling only to stand there dumbly because they can't see the guy crouching 5 feet in front of them. Some of the dedicated stealth missions were OK (and some were completely lame), but there weren't many other missions with a decent stealth path. That's the big difference between Deus Ex and Bloodlines. In Deus Ex, just about every mission has multiple paths and solutions scripted into it.

 

[Kiree]

The 3rd quest I realized I failed immediately and went back and corrected: I let the serial killer in the junkyard go free. Why the fuck do i care that he goes free? Maybe he'd pop up later and help me - that's not out of the realm of possibility in these games.

Letting him go free can be a successful solution, you just need to convince him to stop the killing.

 

[denizsi]

Get your RPG-revisionist bullshit out of my forum! Complaining about puzzle elements in boss fights of Bloodlines, what is your alternative? Simplistic boss-fights of the past where you shoot until you waste the motherfucker off of his 5000 HP? Because that's what Deus Ex was about, and Deus Ex didn't offer "reasoning" with bosses either! Complaining about vent-crawling stealth? Well, the only other game I had as much vent-crawling as I had in Deus Ex was playing as Alien in AVP & AVP2. Complaining about low replayability? WTF, I could barely replay Deus Ex because of all the bullshit filler stuff you had to do back and forth. I can at least replay Bloodlines and I'll have finished half the game by the end of the first hour! Complaining about weak shooter elements? It's supposed to be an RPG for fuck's sake and when I invest in shooting skills instead, I get no problems in Bloodlines, unlike Deus Ex which slightly suffers from be-good-at-everything-itis and you're pretty fucking deadly even at your worst to begin with. It's nice and dandy if you prefer Deus Ex over Bloodlines, I like Deus Ex a lot and as an example to look up to, but don't badmouth Bloodlines with pure bullshit for the sake of Deus Ex.

Other than that, yeah, Bloodlines did indeed have a consolized feel to its UI and controls. As someone who also plays FPSs frequently, I felt more at home with Dues Ex in this aspect.

Overall, I'd still say that Deus Ex is a better action oriented game, while Bloodlines is a much better RPG in general.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Whay are everyone in this thread comparing shooter with an rpg?

 

[Gragt]

and Deus Ex didn't offer "reasoning" with bosses either!

- Laputan machine.
- Your impressive use of the speech skill has convinced me, good sir.

*boom*

 

[Dionysus]

Get your RPG-revisionist bullshit out of my forum! Complaining about puzzle elements in boss fights of Bloodlines, what is your alternative? Simplistic boss-fights of the past where you shoot until you waste the motherfucker off of his 5000 HP? Because that's what Deus Ex was about, and Deus Ex didn't offer "reasoning" with bosses either!

I don't know if there's a single unavoidable fight in Deus Ex. IIRC, you could always use your augs and there was always a way out. Bloodlines was full of situations in which my character got magically locked in a room with some bad guy that I had to kill. It wasn't just bosses either. Once, I got locked in a diner with a bunch of two-bit thugs. It wouldn't be so bad if I had a chance to exercise some of my noncombat skills (like in the final battle of Fallout 2), but most of these situations are straightforward and boring in Bloodlines. You walk into the room. The portcullis closes. You kill the moblin. The portcullis opens. That is generic console adventure game stuff.

And that's just one reoccurring symptom. It's a fun game, but it's riddled with bush-league quest/level design compared to Deus Ex.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Simplistic boss-fights of the past where you shoot until you waste the motherfucker off of his 5000 HP? Because that's what Deus Ex was about

Bossfights in Deus Ex were very rare, but they could be finished quickly without run and gun.

Anna Navarre, for example, I killed by running into a vent and then sniping her twice on the head.

Gunther, I killed by planting LAMs on walls, meeting him, and then running back on the corridor and seeing a big explosion as he follows me.

Same for the augmented FEMA head.

It's supposed to be an RPG for fuck's sake and when I invest in shooting skills instead, I get no problems in Bloodlines, unlike Deus Ex

And when I don't invest in shooting skills, I still have no problems using the gun either. Just a little less damage, a slightly longer fight, with slightly more running and twitching, end.

That's exactly the same as Deus Ex, except Deus Ex is a shooter and Bloodlines is marketed as a RPG.

I don't think using a flamethrower involved any skills either. It was an accurate immobilzing and killing weapon regardless. And please note that stealth kill are an instant kill, with meelee weapons, regardless of meelee skill.

Actually, I don't want to compare Bloodlines with Deus Ex.

I do want to compare it to real first-person action RPGs like -

Arena
Daggerfall
Ultima Underworld
Ultima Underworld II
Anvil Of Dawn

where only character skills matter in combat, and there is no twitching of any sort at all. Yes, it is possible in an action RPG.