Bow vs Crossbow

[Vault Dweller]

As you may know, different weapons classes would have different traits and gameplay mechanics associated with them. In other words, a choice between an axe and a sword would be more then cosmetic.

Now, in regard to bows and xbows, many games show xbow as a slower weapon with higher damage without accounting for fast shooting when a bolt is loaded. So, here is what I suggest:

Avg Bow: shot 4 (takes time to draw and aim), reload 1.
Avg Xbow: shot 2, reload 4.

Avg APs is 7-8, max AP - 10. So, a bowman needs 9AP to be able to shoot twice, while a crossbow guy needs 8AP to shoot twice per turn. What do you think?

Anyway, that way a loaded crossbow is always handy as you can attack almost instantly. Also, currently I treat xbows as shotguns - knockdown effect, while bows are like rifles - good accuracy at long distance. I'm not talking about realism here, but about gameplay effects to make it fun. If the knockdown effect is too much (2AP to get up), I can replace it with armor penetration.

So, any thoughts? What would you like to see? What would make you pick a bow or a xbow as your main weapon? Also, would it be too much to introduce multi-shot xbows (let's say 2 or 4) with some penalties?

 

[Rulion]

I definitely think that's a good system; crossbows should be able to shoot faster than bows. Making them a lot slower to reload evens it out.

If you're considering multi-shot crossbows, than I suggest you go with armour-piercing and not knockback, otherwise it might become a little bit too powerful. Personally, I'd rather see a lack of multi-shot crossbows but that's just my own preference.

Unless the crossbow had neat effects like armour-piercing/knockback, I'd probably just stick with a bow providing I'm using a ranged weapon at all. I prefer distance to raw power - if I want raw power, I'll just go melee.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Unless the crossbow had neat effects like armour-piercing/knockback, I'd probably just stick with a bow

That's the idea. I want to make weapons different and provide good reasons to pick one.

 

[obediah]

I know realism isn't the point, but real world differences between crossbows and bows can make for a good ingame distinction. You could go with:

archery an expensive skill to gain and increase, however as skill goes up accuracy and speed increases (i.e. shot goes to 3 and then 2).

crossbow, extremely low skill requirement, good for one off shots, reload times could be more dependent on strength, and crafting upgrades could allow for easier/faster loading. Much less incentive to advance the skill past basic level, it's high velocity point and shoot.

You end up with bows being the weapon of choice for characters dedicated to missle fire, and x-bows being a good softener for melee character.

 

[ElastiZombie]

One thing you could do which might be interesting would be to allow characters to carry multiple pre-loaded crossbows. Then they could fire one, drop it, fire the next, etc. and have a couple fast shots at the beginning of combat. You could offset it with encumbrance costs - you could only carry a few depending on your strength/endurance whatever. You could allow more smaller ones or less large ones with difference in damage. I'm thinking of the guy with various small x-bows stashed on his person with a single large one slung across his back for a finale. Don't know if this is any help, but there ya go.

 

[Balor]

1. Bows require you to VERY strong and specifically trained. Also, 'aiming' with bows is modern crap. With pull strength of about or more then 40 kgs (up to 80+), how long you will be able to actually 'aim' them?
You pull and release the bowstring in one motion. Of course, if you fire this way, it takes great practice to be able to actually hit anything...
Btw, a bit of historical info:

The Mongols (who conquered Muslim armies in Persia and much of the Middle East) were excellent mounted archers. About 1208 AD, they used high stirrups (attached to the horse's saddle for the rider's feet) which allowed them to shoot in every direction. They also used composite bows with draw weights of up to 160 pounds! They used metal thumb rings to release their bowstrings which allowed them to increase their range considerably.

Mid-eastern bows were superior to western ones. Range record documented was about 1000 yards (that's about 900 meters!). Of course, they didn't use heavy arrows or tried to actually AIM anything during those competitions, but it's pretty impressive nonetheless.

Of course, there are other, more primitive shortbows, but since I doubt that you have primitive setting... therefore, I think that you should pay attention to those facts.

2. So, if bows are so kickass, why crossbows pushed them out of business? Cause they are much easier to learn - you don't have to strong to wind them (you can use a crank, or a hook and a loop), you can take your time to aim, etc. Also, you can have many crossbows, have them reloaded behind the lines and passed in 'chain' forward. This really makes up for them being 'long-winded', heh. So, once they were in mass-production, any conscript could have used it with little degree of training. If quantity >> quality... it rules over quality.
So, in the light of above, my suggestions:
Bows should have 2 firing modes:
a. Fast shot. 2 Ap to shoot. (+1 AP if it's a powerful bow, like large composite or longbow) VERY low accuracy, but it increase with skill untill it's pretty decent. At uber levels you'll be able to select a perk that will allow you to make called shots this way, no additional AP required.
Moderate strength requirements.
b. Aimed shot. 4 ap to Shoot. (+1 AP for strong bows still apply) Decent (on par with xbow) accuracy, INSANE STR requirements - like base*2.
You should NOT be able to shoot more powerful bows this way, unless you are superhuman (or non-human altogether).
A perk like 'Fast aiming' can reduce it by -1 AP.
Also suggest a perk like "Fast reload" (require high Agility, means that you get an arrow out of your quiver as a free action), and “Strong Pull” - meaning your musculature and skeletal frame specialized for drawing bow, meaning that you use bow with +2 STR check. Can select a few levels of it, require certain skill in bows.
How fast one can shoot:
About 19 shots per second for bows in 'snapshot' mode (best result), for crossbows - 2 per minute if it's a model with a ratchet (but I doubt that you will include this one in the game, cause, while there were quite powerful 200-300 kgs pulll STR, up to 600 (maximum ever) but it will take several turns to wind them), and I guess 10 or so if it's one with a hook and loop.. but those are much weaker - less then two times more powerful then bows. (100-150 pull strength).
I'd say: Shot: 2 AP, reload - 6 AP. That's bare minimum. Anyway, how much AP for a punch? You should be able to land, at the very least, 3 punches while someone is cocking the xbow. So, if even it's 2 APs, is more then reasonable.
Fast reload and fast aim perks should apply to xbows too.
They should also have Str requirements, but MUCH lower (since you use your entire body to cock a crossbow, not just your arms). However, if you fit them only barely, you should get +1 AP to reload time, like in case of heavy bows (only there you get a penalty to shoot).
Also, about ranges.
It depends base range (very with power of individual bow or xbow) and on 'ammo', whether it's light arrow, or heavy AP arrow.
Bolts are heavy and AP by default.
Arrows: Hunting (light, not really damaging - well, basic), broadhead (most damage, less range), AP - least range, medium damage, AP (and very much so. With a good bow, you'll easily punch thru a decent breastplate from 100 meters... not to mention chain, leather or any other armor).
Anyway, overall suggestions:
Bows should be weapon of the elite: almost useless in the hands of weak and untrained, but with GREAT potential.
Crossbows are easy to use, but really slow and not that easy to manufacture.
P.S.

I know realism isn't the point, but real world differences between crossbows and bows can make for a good ingame distinction.

My point (in this post) exactly.

 

[Mefi]

I'm not certain if this is possible with your system Vault-Dweller, but could it be possible to increase the speed of the 'shot' with your 'longbow' while sacrificing accuracy? I appreciate it may be fiddly to implement but it would add further choices to the player.

(This was one of the reasons for the English/Welsh longbowmen being so successful - volume of fire. Their arrows worked as more of an AoE weapon than as a targeted weapon. Recent ballistic testing has shown even the best armour-piercing arrows would barely have penetrated protected flesh, although this was uing Agincourt-era tech as the basis of comparison)

I'd combine the armour-piercing with the knockback effect with the crossbow. But I can see the danger of making the crossbow just a little bit too overpowered if a crossbow doesn't cost a small fortune.

edit: just to address Balor's post, a society which relies on bowmen trains them from infancy.Football wa banned in England for the reason young boys were playing ball games instead of training their bow skills. A Roman-ish etting is more problematic, as Rome used mercenary bowmen in their armies.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not certain if this is possible with your system Vault-Dweller, but could it be possible to increase the speed of the 'shot' with your 'longbow' while sacrificing accuracy? I appreciate it may be fiddly to implement but it would add further choices to the player.

Yes. There are different attacks like Power Attack (more damage, but higher AP cost) and Fast Shot (50% accuracy penalty, but less AP) to name a few.

I'd combine the armour-piercing with the knockback effect with the crossbow. But I can see the danger of making the crossbow just a little bit too overpowered if a crossbow doesn't cost a small fortune.

Combining would be too much. We can have the knockdown effect only for close range though.

 

[Balor]

Well, power attack is for melee weapons
And I DO mean that using war bows for 'aimed' shooting require you to be inhumanly strong. I really wish you somehow implement this (after all, it's like lifting a man of a moderate weight with your single arm, AND keep him suspended in the air for a few seconds. If you will allow that, you might as well allow kids to use twohanders. And I mean real twohanders, those that weght 3-4 kg and about 5 feet in length).
Of course, it's not the case for crossbows. You can aim as long as you want with them, provided you will not get shot first, heh.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I pretty much agree with the others. Bows are superior with a LOT of training, crossbows are something you can be decent at without much skill. I suppose if you were mechanically minded you could improve on some of the drawbacks of crossbows (lower accuracy at range, slow rate of fire) and skill might also make a difference. It would be assumed that part of your skill involves good maintenance of your weapon and learning how to compensate.

Of course if we're already going with nitroglycerin, why not just replace crossbows with guns. :wink: It's pretty much the same theory, though you can get quite dangerous with a firearm with ample training. Then it would be mostly a fast rate of fire and cheap vs. slow rate of fire and expensive question then, assuming equal training.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I pretty much agree with the others. Bows are superior with a LOT of training, crossbows are something you can be decent at without much skill.

That was mentioned a few times, and the point is good. So, how would you suggest to handle that? Something like:

Bow requires training (lower starting values, higher return on skill investment). Xbow requires crafting for max efficiency (higher starting values, lower return unless supported by crafting)?

Of course if we're already going with nitroglycerin, why not just replace crossbows with guns.

I decided not to go with nitro. While I feel that I explained reasonably well why it could be in the game in our discussion, I can't do that every time a player has some concerns about it. You aint stupid, Walks, and if you disagree, then it's time to review things.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, power attack is for melee weapons

It was just an example. Mefi asked if such things were possible

And I DO mean that using war bows for 'aimed' shooting require you to be inhumanly strong. I really wish you somehow implement this

You mean like attaching some STR requirement to bows?

 

[Trash]

Realistically speaking?

Bows, require a lot of training. Can be stopped by plate and leather armor...though they often go straight through mail. Can be fired quickly and the arrow has a lot of reach. Was often a hunting weapon and many peasants were trained in its use.

Cross bow, goes through armor. The real powerfull ones had knock down as well. Very long reload time...but is easy to use and fire. Damage is high and often lethal. In medieval times a crossbow was considered a dishonest weapon and there were even those that tried to ban it (including one pope).

Why not just copy these traits? Add some fun weapons like a multible arrowshot xbow, heavy deadly yet hard to master composite longbows and light and easy to use hunting bows. Too simulate the higher training give a bowmen traits that offer more bow damage and rate of fire as he increases his skill. Give the xbow type char a little faster reload time but keep the rest the same.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Bow requires training (lower starting values, higher return on skill investment). Xbow requires crafting for max efficiency (higher starting values, lower return unless supported by crafting)?

Maybe you can add more stuff to a crossbow with crafting, like a winch, steel string, lubricated mechanism, aerodynamic bolts, etc., to improve the fire rate and/or accuracy. Unless your character figures out how to make a modern compound bow, there's not as much to work with there. It would make crossbows the ranged weapon of choice for the people who put more emphasis on crafting than weapon skills, which makes sense. If you made a crossbow that was good enough, you wouldn't need to plow a bunch of points in crossbow skill to have an effective ranged attack, then. It's a bit of an unconventional approach, but it might work.

You could also not make really good crossbows available for sale, either, explaining that part of the crafting requirement entails proper upkeep and maintenance since this would be "cutting edge tech" for the setting. If you found a good one, it would probably break down in pretty short order if you didn't know how to handle it and keep it maintained.

You aint stupid, Walks, and if you disagree, then it's time to review things.

Hey, thanks.

 

[LCJr.]

Realistically speaking the famed English Longbow, Mongal/Eurasian composite bow all had a draw weight of around 150 lbs. Part of learning to use a bow effectively is building up the muscles so a strength requirement would be quite realisitic.

For more info on Longbows try checking on the Mary Rose. It's an English warship that sunk during Henry VIII's reign and several well preserved longbows were recovered.

IIRC the average medieval crossbow had a draw weight ranging from ~200-500 lbs. The lighter were cocked by standing on the stirrup and drawing it back all at once or a little at a time. Obviously the heavier ones used the mechanical devices and the largest seige types had be fired off a support like a wagon.

As others have already stated crossbows are easier to use and aim. They also don't require the same strength requirements since your either pulling with your legs and upper body or using a mechanical device. Add to that the majority had "cacthes" so you didn't need to make the draw in one effort, just as much as you could do at a time. One point that always irks me in most games is that crossbows are treated as a flat trajectory weapon. "Archery" was done with crossbows just the same way as we do with rifles today. All you have to do is aim at the target and raise your aim.

I realise it's just a game but knockback from projectiles is Hollywood BS. Simple Newtonian physics, anything with enough force to knock down the target is going to do the same to the shooter. Don't know if any of you ever watch Discovery's Mythbusters but it was nice to see them tackle that one on one of their episodes.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Good posts, all.

I think that you should balance the crossbow and bow by focusing the crossbow's utility on upgrades and the bow's utility on character skill. So characters who are proficient in weapon crafting and engineering will benefit a lot more from using crossbows, while characters would need to be proficient in bow skills and related perks to use bows with deadly efficiency.

Bows should definitely have a strength requirement, and while crossbow users will benefit from having high strength to pull back the string, at least early in the game, they won't need strength once they figure out how to fix pulleys and cranks into their crossbow, so strength wouldn't be anywhere as important then.

Crossbows are relatively easy to aim, as people have stated, and bows require much more proficiency, so you'd only have to invest very few points in crossbow skills to be a good aim with it, while bows would require a heavy amount of investment. To offset this pending imbalance you could, as others have stated, give a lot of benefits to the highly proficient bow user that allows him to have a high rate of fire, use called shots, and so forth. A crossbow user with low proficiency would still be a good aim, but he'd be extremely bad at reloading and so forth. To balance this, a character with a high skill in engineering will be able to equip special devices onto his crossbow, making them easier to use and improving them tremendously.

Now, you might argue that the player could just go to an NPC and have his crossbow upgraded, but would he really know how to use it? So therefore, he'd NEED the engineering skill to use his upgraded weapon. It's only fair that way, for balance purposes - and it even has some degree of realism to it. I mean, think about it, if you equipped a scope to your handgun, you'd still have to have some degree of knowledge on how to use the telescope, the rangefinder, and all that stuff. A newbie would be at a loss on how to use it to his advantage.

 

[LlamaGod]

How about:

Strength - Bows: Effects damage and AP cost on bow shot (stronger people might be able to pull and shoot more in time?)
Dexterity - Crossbows: Effects accuracy and reload time.

just an idea, kinda basic but whateva. as long as there is Strength Bows and some big honkin War Bows i'll be happy.

So Crossbows advantage would be accuracy (?) and bow's advantage would be damage

 

[Mefi]

Darnit, I just want to play this game.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Avg Bow: shot 4 (takes time to draw and aim), reload 1.
Avg Xbow: shot 2, reload 4.

I haven't been following but "time to draw" for the bow should be taken into account in the "reload" figure shouldn't it?

 

[Balor]

Why?
A certain time is required to take an arrow out of quiver and nock it.
It's rather fast action (and good archers can do it nearly instantly) - but a separate action indeed.
On the other hand, for sake of gameplay, it could be indeed included into the 'aim&shoot' routine.
It will spare players from messing with interface after each shot, and it's not such a great hit to realism.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Avg Bow: shot 4 (takes time to draw and aim), reload 1.
Avg Xbow: shot 2, reload 4.

I haven't been following but "time to draw" for the bow should be taken into account in the "reload" figure shouldn't it?

I disagree. Drawing is a part of taking a shot just like aiming or pulling a trigger is. An archer wouldn't draw a bow ahead of time, would he?

Overall, it doesn't matter what goes where as long as the numbers (4 and 1 vs 2 and 4) make sense from the gameplay point of view. If you feel that they should be adjusted, tell me what you have in mind.

 

[Balor]

Doh, I misread the DU's comment.
Yea, of course you cannot draw a bow ahead of time - like I mentioned above, even simply aiming (vs 'snap shot') require either very weak bow, your VERY strong arms.

Overall, it doesn't matter what goes where as long as the numbers (4 and 1 vs 2 and 4) make sense from the gameplay point of view. If you feel that they should be adjusted, tell me what you have in mind.

I disagree. Reload == draw time of a bow is too fast for a crossbow. Of course, if you have in mind crossbows like in HL - well, perhaps. But they will be:
a. HIGHLY technically advanced. Pretty much like gauss pistol.
b. Pretty weak or have strength requirements on par with bows (making a 'snap shot' from a bow).
Making ordinary xbows this fast will make them historically incorrect - you might as well make daggers to do tons of damage and twohanders do puny damage.
Anyway, I agree with thoughts stated above:
To be a successful archer, you will have to train a lot (pick a lot of perks, raise your STR) to be successful while shooting bows. You have to specialize.
To be a successful xbow shooter, personal skill is not that important - but xbow design is crucial. So, xbowman(woman) would be more like 'technician' in Arcanum - improving both his skills AND instruments.
Anyway, good archer may easily outperform a low-caliber rifle, in terms if range, firing speed and accuracy. (If not ammo count) So, in terms of 'raw firepower' bows MUST be better then xbows - otherwise it will be a favoritism.
However, tech person, armed with an xbow may invent explosive quarrels, scopes, etc - to complement for this.
This way, balance will be achieved. But not by making an xbow a bow clone. They are DRASTICALLY different.
P.S.
Btw, about STR requirements for bow. It’s not only that, but to make a ‘aimed’ shot from a bow (for this option to appear) you must have much higher STR then to make a ‘snap shot’.
Just like in Fallout, where higher skills unlocked better attacks.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I disagree. Reload == draw time of a bow is too fast for a crossbow. Making ordinary xbows this fast will make them historically incorrect - you might as well make daggers to do tons of damage and twohanders do puny damage.

Can you be more specific here? What's too fast? Reload speed? Shooting? Why? What values would you suggest instead? Why?

However, tech person, armed with an xbow may invent explosive quarrels, scopes, etc - to complement for this.

Not in 1AD.

 

[Balor]

Well, I've already posted that above:

So, in the light of above, my suggestions:
Bows should have 2 firing modes:
a. Fast shot. 2 Ap to shoot. (+1 AP if it's a powerful bow, like large composite or longbow) VERY low accuracy, but it increase with skill untill it's pretty decent. At uber levels you'll be able to select a perk that will allow you to make called shots this way, no additional AP required.
Moderate strength requirements.
b. Aimed shot. 4 ap to Shoot. (+1 AP for strong bows still apply)
Decent (on par with xbow) accuracy, INSANE STR requirements - like base*2.
You should NOT be able to shoot more powerful bows this way, unless you are superhuman (or non-human altogether).
A perk like 'Fast aiming' can reduce it by -1 AP.
Also suggest a perk like "Fast reload" (require high Agility, means that you get an arrow out of your quiver as a free action), and “Strong Pull” - meaning your musculature and skeletal frame specialized for drawing bow, meaning that you use bow with +2 STR check. Can select a few levels of it, require certain skill in bows.
How fast one can shoot:
About 19 shots per second for bows in 'snapshot' mode (best result), for crossbows - 2 per minute if it's a model with a ratchet (but I doubt that you will include this one in the game, cause, while there were quite powerful 200-300 kgs pulll STR, up to 600 (maximum ever) but it will take several turns to wind them), and I guess 10 or so if it's one with a hook and loop.. but those are much weaker - less then two times more powerful then bows. (100-150 pull strength).
I'd say: Shot: 2 AP, reload - 6 AP. That's bare minimum, for less powerful crossbows.
Anyway, how much AP for a punch? You should be able to land, at the very least, 3 punches while someone is cocking the xbow. So, if even it's 2 APs, is more then reasonable.
Fast reload and fast aim perks should apply to xbows too.
They should also have Str requirements, but MUCH lower (since you use your entire body to cock a crossbow, not just your arms). However, if you fit them only barely, you should get +1 AP to reload time, like in case of heavy bows (only there you get a penalty to shoot).

Oh, btw, for people who has less then 6 maximum AP - just make it possible to 'overdraw' AP pool, so if you end up with 'negative' APs at the end of turn, at the beginning of the next turn you will start with less APs (Just like in Ja2.. talking about limitations of TB with APs, heh).
Balanced (in the long run), and you may implement crank-winded (not sure if I'm using this term properly... pardon my English), extra powerful xbows with like 20 APs for reload this way... but like 400 kgs pull weight, and yet very liberal STR requirements.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks. Missed that post somehow. I don't have much time now, but I'll address your points in a few hours.