Bow vs Crossbow

[Vault Dweller]

So, in the light of above, my suggestions:
Bows should have 2 firing modes:
a. Fast shot. 2 Ap to shoot.
b. Aimed shot. 4 ap to Shoot.

I use the Fallout AP system as my frame of reference. From that point of view, both 2 and 4 are way to fast. Anyway, let's talk about average values for an average shot. So, an average bow attack is 5AP. I split that into 4 and 1. Then Fast Shot is 3 and 1 and Aimed Shot is 5 and 1.

Decent (on par with xbow) accuracy, INSANE STR requirements - like base*2.
You should NOT be able to shoot more powerful bows this way, unless you are superhuman (or non-human altogether).

While it may make sense, I dislike setting up INSANE reqs. The highest Str req for weapons/armors is 8. Max Str is 10.

A perk like 'Fast aiming' can reduce it by -1 AP.

I don't have perks, and I didn't like the -1AP perk in Fallout. It was way too powerful and it's very easy to get it. While I do have -1AP technique, you don't get it automatically, and it requires another skill (crafting) to apply.

I'd say: Shot: 2 AP, reload - 6 AP. That's bare minimum, for less powerful crossbows.

Once again, the numbers here are way off. If a character has less then 8 AP, he/she is pretty much screwed. 6 for reload is way too much. It may be realistic - I'm not a weapon expert - but such implementation would suck gameplay-wise.

Oh, btw, for people who has less then 6 maximum AP - just make it possible to 'overdraw' AP pool, so if you end up with 'negative' APs at the end of turn, at the beginning of the next turn you will start with less APs (Just like in Ja2.. talking about limitations of TB with APs, heh).

Too much hassle, and it will punish crossbow players unnecessarily.

extra powerful xbows with like 20 APs for reload this way...

Where is fun in that?

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Yeah, there's always the fun factor. The problem with reality is it really should never take 5 or 10 hits to bring a "tough" guy down, but that's how things usually play out in games. A another big problem with ranged weapons in most games is engagement starts pretty much at point blank, so you wouldn't have time to get many shots off assuming you don't have a automatic firearm. A crossbow realistically isn't the kind of weapon a lone adventurer skewers 10 berserkers with axes with, unless he picks them off one by one. In a combat situation, you'd rather be up on a ledge, or behind a bunch of guys with shields when using one. Ideally in a group of 200 or so people also with armed with crossbows.

The Fallout AP system did definitely have its faults, too. I'd be more inclined to go with rolling AP's like JA. In FO, you pretty much either had 10 AP's, fast shot, or it didn't really matter because you were going to shoot once whether you had 1 or 9 agility. I didn't care for that so much.

 

[Ismaul]

I believe first you need an objective while choosing what you want to do with bows and crossbows and then go from there: do you want them to be equal in terms of power or do you prefer them realistic? One thing is sure, you can't have both. I believe having them realistic would make the crossbow superior with low skill investment and the bow superior with high skill investment.

Bows are faster than crossbows to load, by much. Crossbows are usually faster to shoot, unless you have a high skill with bows. Strong bows (do more damage) are longer to load than normal bows, but still less than crossbows. The extra AP amount bows take to load should be dependant on the bearer's strenght. Say, to load a certain one without penality, you need 8 Strenght. For each Str point (or each 2) you have less than 8, it takes you 1 extra AP to load. The amount of Strenght required should be dependant on the type of bow.

Now IMHO, you shouldn't reload bows. Reloading is part of shooting, unlike a gun or a crossbow. So I would make one AP value to shoot and that's it. Say 4 to shoot/load a bow, 3 to shoot a crossbow and 4 to load it (might be a bit more). Also, you could use the system I showed earlier for strong bows and apply it to crossbows. It is concealvable that a stronger person might load a crossbow faster. So, say, a certain crossbow takes 11 Str or more to load at 3 AP (usually impossible). If you have 8 Str or more, it takes 4 AP, 5 or more, 5 AP, and so on. Again, the amount of Strenght required should be dependant on the type of crossbow.

Also, bows shoot at a bigger distance than crossbows. Distance you can shoot at with a bow is dependant on the bow and the bearer's Strenght and Skill, while with a crossbow it only depends on the crossbow itself.

Now, what does increasing the bow or crossbow skill represents, and what does it give? For a bow, it usually gives you aim (called shots? better/more criticals?), longer distance and speed. For a crossbow, it will give aim, but not speed or distance, and maybe other things you should define. Crossbow are usually much easier to aim because you don't have to pull and dose your strenght while shooting. Sure, skill will make you better at aiming, but if it's the only thing skill investment gives you, it becomes much less valuable than investing in bows. Some said that it should also be related to crossbow engineering and upgrades, which I find to be a good compromise. Hey, like SolEx said, the skill could even permit you to develop a device you can add to a crossbow to reload faster. A simple way to make it work with the system above is to make the device give you 2 extra Str for the purpose of reloading.

Well, I guess that's it.

 

[Balor]

You are contradicting yourself, VD.
At first, you say:

As you may know, different weapons classes would have different traits and gameplay mechanics associated with them. In other words, a choice between an axe and a sword would be more then cosmetic.

And then:

Once again, the numbers here are way off. If a character has less then 8 AP, he/she is pretty much screwed. 6 for reload is way too much. It may be realistic - I'm not a weapon expert - but such implementation would suck gameplay-wise.

No to mention:

Too much hassle, and it will punish crossbow players unnecessarily.

So, in the end, you are making bows and crossbows under the motto 'same shit - new bun'.
About "Where is fun in that?" - a shot with a crossbow like this will go right thru any armor and finish off ANYONE. It may be very handy especially in case of inhuman opponents. (Cause bolts, used in such devises, were made from cast iron and very heavy... hence so much power at shorter ranges)
So, more powerful xbows should be like a bazooka - you shoot, you drop it and charge into battle (and the opponent whom you hit is, most likely, dead). And in case of multi-shot xbows it’s even better (2 or even more opponents will likely to turn up dead in one turn, and you don’t have to UBER-skilled to do this.)
Unless you have someone to occupy enemies while you reload.
Shooting even the most powerful bow is almost 2 times faster then the fastest (weak) xbow. Period. (In case when both people who do the shooting are of equal skill).
Unless you are talking about technology that is on par with automatic rifles.
Also, again, more powerful bows DO need very high STR. Otherwise it’s like giving babies two-handed axes.
But since you don't have perks (therefore, you cannot pick absolutely essential +2 str for firing with bows), bows will be accessible only to people with initially high strength... and this sucks. You cannot do this realistic way - train, train and train, starting from rather weak bows, to really strong ones (remember, musculature groups used in shooting are rather specialized, welsh bowmen even had specialized skeleton!). Unless you will make ‘discounts’ based on your bow skill.
Anyway, the more you talk about your system, the less interested I become.
Of course, not everybody are realism freaks like me... but see above about contradicting yourself.
Either you balance bows and xbows by giving them specialized roles, or by making them clones of each other, but please don’t talk about ‘more then cosmetic choice’ then.
Because in a system you suggest, it is cosmetic indeed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You are contradicting yourself, VD.

Not really. I do want to make bows different from crossbows, and the ideas that I had, and ideas I got from this thread will ensure the difference. I'm not trying to make it realistic though, and I'm not trying to turn xbows into a support weapon - it could be used in such fashion, but a player who decides to stick with xbows shouldn't be fucked. That's my point.

So, in the end, you are making bows and crossbows under the motto 'same shit - new bun'.

How did you figure that out? Not arguing, just curious.

About "Where is fun in that?" - a shot with a crossbow like this will go right thru any armor and finish off ANYONE.

Insta-kill weapons are boring, so I shall repeat: where is fun in that?

So, more powerful xbows should be like a bazooka - you shoot, you drop it and charge into battle

Sounds great, but that turns xbow into a support weapon ONLY which isn't what I want.

Shooting even the most powerful bow is almost 2 times faster then the fastest (weak) xbow. Period.

There you go with the realism thing again. Take Fallout for example. Knife attack was 3, pulling a trigger was 4 or 5. Realistic? No. Balanced for a GAME? Yes.

But since you don't have perks (therefore, you cannot pick absolutely essential +2 str for firing with bows), bows will be accessible only to people with initially high strength... and this sucks.

Where do you get this info from? You are reading way too much between them lines.

Anyway, the more you talk about your system, the less interested I become.

Fair enough. I design a game that I'd like to play, and I do realize that my taste in games and game mechanics may not be shared by some folks. Oh, well....

Either you balance bows and xbows by giving them specialized roles, or by making them clones of each other, but please don’t talk about ‘more then cosmetic choice’ then.
Because in a system you suggest, it is cosmetic indeed.

In your opinion. Anyway, I described at the beginning of this thread what I have in mind, including different roles for each weapon (rifle vs shotgun). If that's still too cosmetic for you, well, sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I believe first you need an objective while choosing what you want to do with bows and crossbows and then go from there: do you want them to be equal in terms of power or do you prefer them realistic?

Neither. I have two goals:

1) specializing in a certain weapon should be enough to handle hostile encounters. Some weapons could be eaisier to play with, some weapons could be harder to master (one probably shouldn't rush into a battle armed with throwing knives - some tactics may be required), but one weapon type should be enough to progress through the game.

2) I want the combat part of gameplay to be somewhat different for each weapon. Nothing dramatic like Balor expected though. More like different traits and tactics. For example, spear gives interrupt attack that allow to keep enemies at bay. Hammer comes with knockdown effects. Bows are rifles, and xbows are shotguns, as I mentioned above.

The extra AP amount bows take to load should be dependant on the bearer's strenght.

APs should only depend on skills or techniques. I don't like attaching such values to stats as that only results in stereotypical characters.

Now IMHO, you shouldn't reload bows. Reloading is part of shooting, unlike a gun or a crossbow. So I would make one AP value to shoot and that's it.

Good point.

Now, what does increasing the bow or crossbow skill represents, and what does it give? For a bow, it usually gives you aim (called shots? better/more criticals?), longer distance and speed. For a crossbow, it will give aim, but not speed or distance, and maybe other things you should define. Crossbow are usually much easier to aim because you don't have to pull and dose your strenght while shooting. Sure, skill will make you better at aiming, but if it's the only thing skill investment gives you, it becomes much less valuable than investing in bows. Some said that it should also be related to crossbow engineering and upgrades, which I find to be a good compromise.

*Currently*, the range is determined by PER and a weapon itself. A war bow has much better range than a short bow, etc. Skill (any skill) increases "to hit" chance and a special trait chance. For example, the higher your Spear skill is, the higher the chance for a successful interrupt attack. Higher skills also unlock special attacks (something like unarmed combat in FO2).

Hey, like SolEx said, the skill could even permit you to develop a device you can add to a crossbow to reload faster. A simple way to make it work with the system above is to make the device give you 2 extra Str for the purpose of reloading.

I don't mind devices and faster reload is already in to balance faster attacks for melee weapons.

 

[crufty]

The extra AP amount bows take to load should be dependant on the bearer's strenght.

APs should only depend on skills or techniques. I don't like attaching such values to stats as that only results in stereotypical characters.

Sounds like a gameplay tweak (in favor of realism vs fun) might be to have weakness penalties...if a weak, unskilled character uses the bow, they can't load and shoot in the same round, can't shoot as far, have to hit penalties, etc. But a weak skilled character has figured out a way to compensate and doesn't suffer--at all or as badly, not sure which the case would be.

Also, one thing is that maybe the crossbow doesn't have any skill requirements at all. So anyone can use it, but nobody can get better at it.

On a historical side note, I believe it was the church of england that would ban crossbows whenever two anglican christian armies would do battle, as the crossbow was considered too lethal and brutal to use on other christians (particularly the christian nobles).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sounds like a gameplay tweak (in favor of realism vs fun) might be to have weakness penalties...if a weak, unskilled character uses the bow, they can't load and shoot in the same round, can't shoot as far, have to hit penalties, etc. But a weak skilled character has figured out a way to compensate and doesn't suffer--at all or as badly, not sure which the case would be.

A weak character should stick with short bows or whatever he can handle and use his other advantages (since STR is low, some other stat(s) shoud be higher) to compensate for the lack of STR.

Also, one thing is that maybe the crossbow doesn't have any skill requirements at all. So anyone can use it, but nobody can get better at it.

I don't think that removing a skill is a good idea. I'm sure that an experienced xbowman can be more efficient then a noob, and that's what the skill represents.

 

[Balor]

I'm not trying to make it realistic though, and I'm not trying to turn xbows into a support weapon - it could be used in such fashion, but a player who decides to stick with xbows shouldn't be fucked. That's my point.

Why are you so adamant in making crossbow a main weapon, so to speak? Historically, it WAS support one... unless you go for HL-like crossbows, that are reloaded like a rifle, have a clip and yet shoot powerfully enough to kill.
Why do you want to add a weapon to the game, which will surely go against all logic? Aren’t there are a lot of other ones?
Next, you'd like to add thrown rocks and what, you will balance them so they will be on par with bows and crossbows? In case someone would like to play using only rocks? Or make knifes ultimate weapons of destruction, on par with two-handed swords? Why two-handed swords were invented, if knives rule so much, then? (And require much less strength from the user, too.)
Different weapons are made for different purposes, and some were never intended to be ‘primary’ or even ‘balanced’.
And about 'cosmetic differences' again:
Only 1 ap more to shoot, that's laughable! And 'a bit' more powerful, no doubt. And with same skill requirements, right? No? Then the situation will be unbalanced towards crossbows, then.
Btw, about ‘fast first shot’... I agree. But it would be viable only in RT or SPM. In TB, it doesn’t matter. Who gets the first move will fire first - no matter how slow weapon he has. To a question of limitations of TB again - only ‘shots per turn’ are important... no to mention that ‘disrupting your current action’ in unheard of in TB. (Unless you mean continuous actions like running, and interrupts... but there are no interrupts in Fallout. Will the be in AoD?)

Insta-kill weapons are boring, so I shall repeat: where is fun in that?

Well, I pretty much enjoyed playing Fallout with a gauss rifle, and shooting people in the eyes (Sniper and better criticals perks taken).
Now that is almost instant-kill weapon... and lots of fun.
Your idea of fun is MMORPGs, where you have to chew on a monster for an hour? Thanks, I'll pass.
Anyway, that’s your game, and you can do whatever perversion comes to your mind with it.
But you asked for my opinion and suggestions - here, you have one. *shrugs*
But I still don’t understand why you want to balance every available weapon to be used as a ‘primary’ one.

 

[Balor]

Oh, btw, about bows shooting farther then xbows... BS!
There are two types of xbows:
AP ones - with short bolt made of cast iron, and weighting about 400-800(!) gramms.
Far-shooting variety - they fired projectiles that looked almost like arrows at great distances. One kilometer? Easily. After all, even light xbows are stronger then most bows.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why are you so adamant in making crossbow a main weapon, so to speak?

I'm adamant about giving players choices. Personally, I don't give a damn about crossbows, but there are people who do, and they shouldn't be told "you can't use crossbows as a primary weapon because I'm teh historian!" It's a game - a bunch of concepts put together for our amusements, not a mirror of reality.

Historically, it WAS support one...

Historically, nobody has ever managed to cast Fireball or kill armies of demons. See my point?

Why do you want to add a weapon to the game, which will surely go against all logic? Aren’t there are a lot of other ones?

Crossbow is a traditional fantasy weapon, and as all that fuss about removing xbows from Oblivion shows, there are plenty of people who care about them.

Next, you'd like to add thrown rocks and what, you will balance them so they will be on par with bows and crossbows? In case someone would like to play using only rocks? Or make knifes ultimate weapons of destruction, on par with two-handed swords? Why two-handed swords were invented, if knives rule so much, then? (And require much less strength from the user, too.)

I don't have throwing rocks, but I have throwing weapons that are - *shock* - very effective and could be used as a primary weapon. Every weapon could be deadly and effective with proper tactics, even knives vs 2H swords, which I'm sure is some kinda historical crime, but that's the way things are in games.

Different weapons are made for different purposes, and some were never intended to be ‘primary’ or even ‘balanced’.

True, but we are talking about games.

Only 1 ap more to shoot, that's laughable! And 'a bit' more powerful, no doubt. And with same skill requirements, right? No? Then the situation will be unbalanced towards crossbows, then.

1AP is a lot, as that may mean an extra shot. Not more powerful - about the same. No skill requirements, just like in Fallout, you can use any weapon, but if you suck, chances are you won't hit anything.

Btw, about ‘fast first shot’... I agree. But it would be viable only in RT or SPM. In TB, it doesn’t matter. Who gets the first move will fire first - no matter how slow weapon he has.

True, but the key word isn't first, it's fast. That's the part where you can use it as a support weapon. Fire and discard.

but there are no interrupts in Fallout. Will the be in AoD?

Not sure. The interrupt mechanics are in - used by spearmen. Whether or not we'll use it elsewhere, I don't know. Good subject for another topic later on.

Well, I pretty much enjoyed playing Fallout with a gauss rifle, and shooting people in the eyes (Sniper and better criticals perks taken).
Now that is almost instant-kill weapon... and lots of fun.

That's the part I didn't like.

Your idea of fun is MMORPGs, where you have to chew on a monster for an hour? Thanks, I'll pass.

You go from one extreme to another. Try something in the middle.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I like the idea of Bows and Crossbows as primary weapons, it adds variety.

 

[Balor]

Oh well, that's your choice. I've given you my suggestions, you do what you want with them, like I said.
After all, combat in PT is among crappiest ever... but I still consider it the best CPRG ever made.
*shrugs*

 

[Balor]

I like the idea of Bows and Crossbows as primary weapons, it adds variety.

No, it doesn't. If xbows were support weapons - it would. But making xbows 'bows with a twist' actually eliminate it.
Because, to paraphrase VD, the difference is not a lot more then cosmetic.

 

[RGE]

I like the idea of crossbows as support weapons for untrained people. A truly ignoble weapon which makes me think of mercenaries and peasant armies. But if a few lone vanquishers of oodles of enemies want to run around and be Rambo with their favourite piece of traditional fantasy weaponry, who am I to laugh derisively at their power fantasies?

Instead I'll just be disappointed that a more down to earth option once again seems to lose to what's 'cool'. I think it's cool to whip up a loaded crossbow, fire it, and then wade into melee because it's too easy to get killed while reloading. But then again, the chance of me playing AoD is almost nil, so pay no attention to the disgruntled fan of 'gritty'.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'm curious, will your game support multiple types of arrows or will every arrow fired have the same properties? It'd be nice if you could swap between different kinds of arrows, like hunters arrows for fleshy targets like animals and armorless prey, and they'd travel far due to their lightness, but they would have a very small chance to penetrate through hardened leather, much less plate or scalemail. Bronzed and copper breastplates, and scalemail existed in Roman times, by the way. They'd go right through chain, though.

Likewise, it'd be nice to have a Roman counterpart of the Bodkin arrowhead, which was used to penetrate through armor. It could go through 1/16" of hardened steel armor, or even a 5" oak door. Granted, it wasn't invented until the Middle Ages but who's to say the Romans didn't have a similar arrowhead during their time? The broadhead arrow didn't penetrate through armor, but it worked efficiently at distributing enough force towards a target to provide a knock-down or stunning effect.

I don't suppose there'd be any knife-pronged arrowheads or any other advanced arrowheads, though, as that was a Japanese arrowhead, and the smithing and technique required to create such an arrowhead, much less the skill to actually use one to target a called shot at a person's throat (Japanese yumi archers aimed for accuracy as well as range.) was probably unavailable during the time of the Romans.

Here's a site on Japanese archery, in case you're interested: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_denig_0301.htm

 

[Vault Dweller]

Instead I'll just be disappointed that a more down to earth option once again seems to lose to what's 'COOL'.

I think it's COOL to whip up a loaded crossbow, fire it, and then wade into melee because it's too easy to get killed while reloading.

Lol. So, which option is the "down to earth" one and which is the cool one? Anyway, like I said many times, I give choices, whatever you want to do with them is up to you. You want to use a crossbow as a primary and only weapon? Fine. You want to use several support weapons? Fine. So, what seems to be the problem?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm curious, will your game support multiple types of arrows or will every arrow fired have the same properties? It'd be nice if you could swap between different kinds of arrows, like hunters arrows for fleshy targets like animals and armorless prey, and they'd travel far due to their lightness, but they would have a very small chance to penetrate through hardened leather, much less plate or scalemail. Bronzed and copper breastplates, and scalemail existed in Roman times, by the way. They'd go right through chain, though.

Yes. Look at the screen. There are 3 types of arrows: Armor Piercing, Regular, and Jagged (against light infantry).

Here's a site on Japanese archery, in case you're interested: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_denig_0301.htm

Thanks for the link

 

[RGE]

Lol. So, which option is the "down to earth" one and which is the cool one?

The option which acknowledges that a crossbow generally takes quite some time to load would be the "down to earth" option. The option which speeds up the loading process to make the crossbow a gangsta style tilted sideways bow would be the cool one. But it warms my cold heart to think that you'd consider me enough of an authority on what's cool to ask me like this.

Anyway, like I said many times, I give choices, whatever you want to do with them is up to you. You want to use a crossbow as a primary and only weapon? Fine. You want to use several support weapons? Fine. So, what seems to be the problem?

Not powerful enough crossbows perhaps? Or not easy enough to use with minimal skill investment? I don't know which one of all the suggestions you'd go with.

1 AP difference seems too little, but if 10 AP is max and most players go for max, then I guess it really does make a difference as a bow could reach two attacks per round while the crossbow will always be stuck at one attack per round. I suppose that would make crossbows kind of crappy, but it wouldn't matter unless you intend to get the maximum amount of APs, so if they are even a little bit more powerful than bows they'd be sensible to use for someone who's not a dedicated archer. But since they'd be crappy compared to bows, wouldn't that automatically make them support weapons? What would the game be balanced for - bows or crossbows? Two attacks per round or one attack per round? Or will crossbows somehow reach two attacks per round as well? Perhaps 10 APs won't be the maximum amount?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The option which acknowledges that a crossbow generally takes quite some time to load would be the "down to earth" option.

I must confess that it's been awhile since I've reloaded my crossbow. Hmm, come to think about it, I don't even have a crossbow, but since I'm surrounded by all kinda military experts, I should just ask. So, how much, both in seconds/minutes/maybe even hours and in APs, does it take to reload a crossbow?

But it warms my cold heart to think that you'd consider me enough of an authority on what's cool to ask me like this.

Well, after you stated with regret that "cool" is being a decisive factor, and then started talking about how cool it is to whip up a loaded crossbow, I thought to myself: "Now, that's the guy who knows a thing or two about cool".

1 AP difference seems too little, but if 10 AP is max and most players go for max

It will be VERY difficult to go for max in this game. 6 stats, 40 points. 1Dex=1AP. To get 10 Dex you'd have to make huge sacrifices elsewhere.

then I guess it really does make a difference as a bow could reach two attacks per round while the crossbow will always be stuck at one attack per round

Not always. Using current avg values: 8AP per turn, you start combat with a loaded crossbow, shoot - 2AP, reload - 4AP, and still have APs for one more shot. Next turn, you start with an unloaded crossbow, reload, shoot, reload.

I like Ismaul's suggestion to drop the reload time for bows, so perhaps, that's what I'll do. That would brings the attack value for bows to 4AP and would ensure 2 attacks per 8AP turn. And keep military experts happy (-ier)

But since they'd be crappy compared to bows, wouldn't that automatically make them support weapons?

You look at them only from the AP point of view. Consider other factors, like the knockdown effect or armor piercing effects or sniping abilities of bows, and you'll find that AP or damage won't matter as much as a well placed shot.

What would the game be balanced for - bows or crossbows? Two attacks per round or one attack per round? Or will crossbows somehow reach two attacks per round as well? Perhaps 10 APs won't be the maximum amount?

It's more complex than that. There are different bows and different xbows. They have different stats. There is also crafting that could affect those stats. Etc. Besides, your character build may or may not benefit from -1AP cost (low Dex, high Per - one called shot, huge criticals).

 

[Sol Invictus]

I hope that characters can be accurate as well as fast, though. It wouldn't make much sense for an elite archer to only be good at releasing arrows but not being able to hit for shit.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Accuracy depends on the skill, just like in any other game.

 

[Mefi]

The option which acknowledges that a crossbow generally takes quite some time to load would be the "down to earth" option.

I must confess that it's been awhile since I've reloaded my crossbow. Hmm, come to think about it, I don't even have a crossbow, but since I'm surrounded by all kinda military experts, I should just ask. So, how much, both in seconds/minutes/maybe even hours and in APs, does it take to reload a crossbow?

2-4 bolts per minute (depending on the type of crossbow - expert chappy had 3 kinds 'roman', C10th and C15th)) compared to 15 arrows per minute for long bow, both at max speed and in the hands of a reconstruction type bloke.

Reloading/notching and drawing were the longest part of the process. The crossbow is point and click, and at that speed with a longbow you are laying down a hail of arrows not trying to pick the tail off a gnat.

No idea why people are worrying so much though. It's not as if there were too many survivors of the 'let's load a crossbow while that lunatic attempts to cut me in half with his greatsword' school of thought

 

[Balor]

About how fast one can fire (aimed):
Fastest bows:
About 20 shots per minute.
Fastest xbows (still more powerful then light bows, if less powerful then strongest bows) :
About 1/2 of that.
For powerful bows it's more like 10 shots per minute.
For powerful xbows - 2 or 3 shots per minute.
Depends on reloading mechanism, though, but I 'averaged out'.
Btw, read this about one very interesting piece of Chinese xbow:
http://www.worldcrossbow.com/design.html
While I think that shooting 'every second' is an exaggeration (99.9 percent they ruled out time to aim), and notice that it was neither powerful nor accurate (means easily lose even to shortbows, and most likely will only penetrate cloth - to deliver poison), but it's pretty impressive indeed for something out of 200 BC I'm not counting that is as a 'fastest xbow' because of above negaitive traits - it's more of a curiosity then a really functional xbow.
Edit:
Heh, me and Mefi think alike
Btw, about this Chinese repeating xbow is definetely worth implementing - if not as a way to punch big holes in your enemies, but just like Chinese used it - to deliver poison.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The repeating crossbow, or cho-ko-nu did indeed fire many bolts, but they were the size of darts and were meant, when used in large numbers, to fuck up an advancing army. The large spread of shots over a short period of time would disperse most untrained or unarmored legions, and would scare the shit out of horses, trampling their riders. Probably ineffective on shields, but it had the same effect as being hit by a hailstone of small stones and rocks launched from a trebuchet. Those things rarely killed anyone, except with fatal head injuries, but the damage they incurred was enough to demoralize a defensive garrison or an advancing army, especially with wounds that would cause you to bleed profusely, or lose a limb, or as the Chinese used it, to deliver poison.

The rate of fire isn't an exaggeration at all. Some models do exist, and that's how fast they fire. You just don't aim with those things. They're used similar to how one would use a Mini-Uzi or a Tec-9 these days. They aren't precision rifles. Of course, there's no reason why you can't aim with them, just as you can aim with a Mini-Uzi. It's just not effective when used in that manner. Speed over accuracy.