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Brigade E5 - a promising tactical game.

Balor

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
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I'm beta-testing it right now. It's very hardcore in the weapons department - you have to buy, load and replace clips manually, for instance, but people who like tactics usually have higher complexity requirement anyway. This game, is set in some tropical country (Palinero) that had US and USSR bases, that later got withdrawn, but much of the weaponry spread amongst the populace - so, one can find pretty much anything from Makarov hand-gun to G11K2. Of course, latter (+ funky things like Vintorez, F2000, Desert Eagle, Jackhammer) is quest-only, unique and each have it's own background of getting into Palinero.
Nice graphics, animation, and all abovementioned weapons are modeled with painstaking detail, from models, skins to tech stats and descriptions. If you will not like it, at least you'll be able to use it as weapon encyclopedia - no kidding.
There are three major features I want to describe in particular:
Adrenaline, SMP (Smart Pause) and inventory system.
Adrenaline system (and shock) is, a bit simplified, of course, emulation of what a solder feels when suddenly encountering an enemy, being under fire, etc. Basically, your hands start to shake (great decrease in accuracy - so you'll have to resort to spary&pray tactics), and you'll get increase in speed (in case you'll want to resort to "run like mad" tactics :)). The more experience as a soldier you are (the only game where experience is a stat, and only game where it is used right, heh), the calmer you'll be under fire and faced with multitude of enemies.
Shock - is when your char is temporally incapacitated. It can happen when you are hit - pain shock, or when you suddenly encounter an enemy. Duration of latter is based on reaction stat, and how much adrenaline will be pumped into your blood - on your experience (see above).
SMP - is essentially realtime gameplay system, but each your action will be measured in seconds (up to one hundredth of a second), and each time there are enemies nearby, and you run out of orders - the game will be paused with a comment "out of actions" and a clickable icon of that idle char. Same will happen if you'll encouner new enemy, get under fire or hit, etc (everything is fully configurable).
Perhaps a bit more messy then pure turn-based system, this one is much (I mean, 100%) more realistic, you don't have to wait for 30 enemies (and civilians) to take their turns, while retaining full control of the situation. You can also pause the game any time you want to.
It makes possible tactical situations like:
You walk around the corner, and suddenly see an enemy right before you. You (and him) will get shocked based on your reaction, and get adrenaline increase based on your experience. Game auto-paused, so you can decide what you'll do:
1. If you have a hand-gun, you can fire at the enemy away at the enemy w/o aiming - it's rather hard to miss from such small distance. If your opponent also has handgun or a sub, and will resort to same tactics - it will all depend on your reaction, gunfighting skill, and gun stats - westerns anyone? Different models have different preparation times, mostly as different as fractions of a second, but one who fires and hits first - usually the winner. That’s because when you are hit - it's a shock, disruption of your action and maximized adrenaline... while your enemy continue to fire at you, if even the hit was not lethal (and high-caliber pistols, btw, (like Colt or USP or, heh, Desert Eagle) usually kill or beat the enemy into unconscious state with one hit when hit body.. headshot is, usually, deadly).
2. If you have assault rifle with a bayonet - you can try and impale the fucker - provided he'll not be using the (1) tactics, which may prove to be faster... so be quick or be dead.
3. If you just have an assault rifle (or, god forbid, sniper rifle) - they have noticeably longer prepare times, even for shooting w/o aiming, therefore, if your opponent will come up with (1) or (2) tactics, your are screwed, unless you'll be luck enough to score a hit after being missed.
You can also try to hang the rifle on the shoulder (or even drop it- faster) and beat his ugly face in. About same as (2), takes more time, but once you got him down - you can finish him off with a few well-placed kicks (like, say, crushing the larynx).
Btw, there are separate skills for gunfighting - shooting without any preparation at all, shooting - shooting using iron sights or collimators, and sniping - using optics.
About inventory - you must use equipment to carry stuff in, and different equipment require different time to put/get stuff from. Like pockets (default containers) - can hold very little, but have fastest time to get things out from. You can get a tac. belt, tac vest, and backpack. Weapons like assault guns can be handed in the neck, left or right shoulder (cannot do this with handguns, of course), and there are foldable stocks (on weapons that have that stat in RL) to carry them in backpack, or to carry small submachineguns in pockets.
Those are facts that are already known to the public - but to the Russian public. More specific facts, like storyline (I can only say that it's not linear and there are 3 factions you can join), etc - I cannot tell about because of NDA.
If you are interested, however, I can tell more - just will verify if it's legal.
Also, if you want to look at screen (or if you can read Russian) - you can check the website:
http://www.e5brigade.ru/
P.S. And if you will get impression that this game is inspired by Ja2... right you are. Btw, they even have one of Ja2 ex-devs in their ranks, so I heard.
 

newmark

Novice
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
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1
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poland
which verions of beta re you testing?
if it's V5, can you tell how to get it,coz there are no working links to that version.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
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Smart pause? That's doublespeak for pause and play.

I don't understand what's so fucking 'complex' about loading and replacing clips manually. It sounds more like a chore rather than any kind of 'complexity'. There's a reason shit like that is automated in most games. If there's ammo in your inventory you shouldn't be forced to drag and drop the fucking thing into your gun. I don't see why clip ejection should be manual, either. These are just unnecessary chores, much like eating and taking a piss would be in an RPG.

The adreneline system isn't incredibly original. It was used in both Syndicate and Syndicate Wars.

The Smart Pause System is 100% messier than a Turn Based system and to that measure, it's also 100% useless and unnecessary. I honestly don't see how the game pausing itself automatically is '100% more realistic' than a turn-based system. They're both completely abstractions of a real time environment.

While games like Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance 2 are heavily bogged down by waiting for 30 enemies and civilians to take their turns, that is the fault of their implementation in those games and not the fault of turn-based systems as a whole. Games like Heroes of Might and Magic, X-Com, Rome: Total War, Age of Wonders and a variety of other turn-based games allow you to completely skip viewing enemy movement.
 

Balor

Arcane
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"I don't understand what's so fucking 'complex' about loading and replacing clips manually. It sounds more like a chore rather than any kind of 'complexity'. There's a reason shit like that is automated in most games."
Well, question is, there are people who want 'simple fun' from games, and some want 'ultimate realism and complexity'. You can check my posts in the 'AD&D wizard is too hard...' thread, and see that I agree on the point that complex != fun. And I've also mentioned, that if this complexity is 'thought-out' and unmotivated. In AD&D, memorization system is a perfect fit - it lessens work for DMs, and generally is fun - given the play style. In CRPGs, it's unnecessary complexity.
E5, however, is more like merc sim - with maximum realism being one of the major goals. If you don't like it - fine. I bet there is NO game up to day that EVERYONE liked.
Of course, it's not 100% realistic - it's both improbable and, yes, barely playable.
However - talking about clips, for instance. First - you can scavenge clips from enemy (that's what you were forced to do in JA2 anyway) - therefore, don't really bother with flling your clips with bullets - just throw them away and get a new one.
Second, it is a nice balancing system. Say, you found a cool rifle that's way above your current progress level - say, G36. It uses 5.56 - therefore, ammo is pretty abundant. But with a single clip. And other clips don't fit. So, otherwise unbalanced situation (got one of the better rifles in the game early) is balanced by the fact you cannot fire more then a clip from it w/o subsequent reloading the only clip manually - not that it take a great lot, but comparing to simply exchanging clips - difference is drastic and you can be easily killed in the process. So on, so forth. Also, clips take more space that a big box of ammo (2x at the very least.. well unless you take HMG 'clips', heh.).
And about auto-pause being not as realistic as realtime... hmm, it's plain stupid. IT IS realitime. But with an option to pause it when something of interest happens. (you can choose not to, btw.. Just slow down game speed overall, or go completely realtime. Prepare to have a life expectancy of a snowflake in a thermobaric explosion, tho. ) And the game does it automatically - so, you don't have to have reaction of 100 (even if you char does, heh) to react by hitting space when you'll turn around a corner and meet and enemy 'nose-to-nose'. And in encounters like that, like I've pointed out before, every fraction of second is important.
P.S.
And about the latest demo - it's given out only to selected people, not to mention about the latest beta, which is only mailed on the DVD (cause it's about 3 gigs, and compresses VERY poorly (already compressed, I understand)). If you really want to d/l the demo (about 600 megs) - adress me.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
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And about auto-pause being not as realistic as realtime... hmm, it's plain stupid. IT IS realitime

If it's real time, how come you can pause it? Pausing real time is by definition, not real time. There's only so many actions you can do in real time before the game starts to bog down on you. Pausing the game allows for a much more manageable pace and is hence unrealistic.

I can't really comment any further on the game as I haven't had the chance to play it, so it might not be as bad as it appears to me. I didn't enjoy X-Com 3 Apocalypse nor did I enjoy UFO Aftermath due to their 'smart pause system'.
 

Balor

Arcane
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Pausing the game allows for a much more manageable pace and is hence unrealistic.
*blinks* *blinks again* *closes his mouth* *thinks*
Well, it seem like to you everything that makes game more manageable is unrealistic? It's not true. Well, of course, you cannot save in RL too, so on, so forth - but as I understand, you put unrealism in TB and SPM together? I strongly disagree.
Time in SMP continuous for EVERY actor - and when game is paused, it is paused for everyone. (While in TB time can 'flow' only for one actor, disregarding the other ones. While such hack as interrupts deals with most severe of problems with such system, imagine situation: You spend all your APs running towards to door of the building. Enemy turn. A soldier comes out from the door, and unloads his clip into you. Finita la comedia - and you don't even have any CHANCE to react. In SPM system, you can - since you can always interrupt your current orders and assign new.) And it's not, strictly speaking, unrealistic feature - it's extra feature that, yes, is intended to make the game more manageable. When game is unrealistic, in my perspective, it's when you cannot do something IN CHAR, so to speak, or do something you cannot possible do in RL... like being unable to crouch or go prone or jump or something. And btw! Realism requirements may depend on setting. So, if your setting states that there is no friction - ok, if your game lives up to that rule, it's realistic. (I don't, however, have ANY idea how universe with no friction may look like).
So, in E5, the setting is our world, but fictional country, that had NATO and USSR bases. All laws of physics are considered the same. And 'pausing' is, so to speak - 'out of setting', or, MUD-speaking, OOC (out of character). Ingame (for characters), time flows continuously - it's just for player it stops and resumes.
If the character could pause time and them move freely while other actors had to sit like ducks (hmm... sounds like POP... or wait, is it TB system I'm talking about?) - it's unrealistic. SPM is, however, 'invisible' to the character (character, not the player), therefore, it cannot be unrealistic. Just like buttons on the interface is not. Of course, such contrast between the IC and OOC takes away some immersion from the game... but, I guess, TB does this 'job' even better. And, like I said, you can always go completely real-time - if you have reaction of a spider. And besides, THAT would be unrealistic, since, while player does have to click buttons (whether on interface or on the keyboard) to, say, ready your weapon - the char only has to generate an impulse from brain to hands - which is much near-instantly. And since we don't have, (un)fortunately, a direct mind-machine interface yet, you HAVE to resort to such things to keep things REALISTIC.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
 

JA2Fanatic

Novice
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
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Location
Vienna
hi@all

i played the 5.10 demo tousend times...
and i have to say this fucking game rocks soooo fucking damn great!!!!!

every non beliver shall stay in their dark vally, where they are.

every E5 fan shall spread it out into the non russian world(i think in russia its already knowen), that this game is(i think) a better JA2 successor then JA3 from Mistland( :cry: ), to say this makes me sad but anyways....

mistland mesed up paradise cracked and cops 21??, so i rally dont hope for a good JA2 successor from mistland! :cry:

and when the russian version(i belive) gets released soon, i will buy it, no matter if i cant read russian. allready got an dictionary! :wink:

greetings
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
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Oct 21, 2004
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Yes
Paradise Cracked was only bad because of some bad design ideas, but Cops 2170 is freakin great though. I dont see why someone who likes JA2 wouldnt like Cops...

E5 sounds alright, but the whole real-time thing sounds lame.
 

JA2Fanatic

Novice
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Vienna
hi

as i know is paradise cracked(from the gameplay and look) verry similar to cops2170.
cops is more blue than pink, you cant move through a lvl, looking for the last enemy in real-time mode(was the same at paradise). look at the pic i linked below...you can see the similaritys.

http://www.taktikzone.de/cops/copa1.jpg
http://www.taktikzone.de/cops/copa2.jpg

and why I dont like cops and paradise?!
its special for me...i dont like any post-nuclear, future, ore cyber-punk scenario!!!(like fallout,x-com or ufo)
for me it has to be REAL world, REAL weapons(no future-mambojambo), and a meybe fictional REAL world country!!!!!

and about the lame realtime stuf in E5...ist not realtime, and not turnbased! its both together and thats what makes it that great...

if you know combatmissions 1-3, they also got a cool realtime-TB mix....i like this stuff!
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
JA2Fanatic said:
...i dont like any post-nuclear, future, ore cyber-punk scenario!!!(like fallout,x-com or ufo)

JA2Fanatic said:
and about the lame realtime stuf in E5...ist not realtime, and not turnbased! its both together and thats what makes it that great...

Get. Out.
 

JA2Fanatic

Novice
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Feb 13, 2005
Messages
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Location
Vienna
@Fez
it seems you like those Fallout,X-com stuff :lol:

but wheres your prob with me?
if you dont like what i say, please dont tell it that direct :wink:
or dont post in this thread... :?

i mean when you say "get. out." i dont now what you think about this game or any other tactical game...

you got no point... :cry:

i would be happy to read a real answer....

greetings
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
I'm so sorry for coming across as harsh, click here for the real answer then.






Actually, the real answer is that you are a cock jocky.

U R SO DED FAGGET. FO 4 EVA!!! :evil:
 

Elwro

Arcane
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Messages
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Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Fez, AKA "Smack the n3wb!"

Anyway, JA2F, just remember that it sounds really, really stupid when you say that something is both realtime and turnbased.
 

JA2Fanatic

Novice
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Feb 13, 2005
Messages
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Vienna
hi

i see, no moderators in this forum... :lol:

@Elwro
your right!

but if the games succesfully blends together realtime and turnbased mode(like it does)....i will not LIE and say its this or that...its both!!!!

thats how it is...

or how would you call it????

greetings
 

Balor

Arcane
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Messages
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Elwro is right - E5 is NEITHER realtime, NOR turn-based - it's SPM...
Well, it can be called 'RTwP on steroids', but definetely not turn-based - since, like I mentioned, in TB time flows only for one character at a time. In E5, when you unpause the game, time flows with same speed for everyone, hence TB will always be less realistic, 'physics-wise', then RT.
I've already mentioned that above, don't reinvent the wheel.
And moderators here usually only remove completely bogus and redarded topics. It's ok to swear here - just do in a way to inspire awe and fear, not disgust and disdain.
 

Sol Invictus

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Less realistic? Do you want to explain how tactical turn-based is less realistic than having two characters hack at each other until the other's health goes down because real time doesn't allow for anything else?
 

Balor

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While I should just say "see above", I'll save you some scrolling:
"Time in SMP continuous for EVERY actor - and when game is paused, it is paused for everyone. (While in TB time can 'flow' only for one actor, disregarding the other ones. While such hack as interrupts deals with most severe of problems with such system, imagine situation: You spend all your APs running towards to door of the building. Enemy turn. A soldier comes out from the door, and unloads his clip into you. Finita la comedia - and you don't even have any CHANCE to react. In SPM system, you can - since you can always interrupt your current orders and assign new."
Btw, I was wrong there - in SPM, you don't even have to pause the game yourself - it will autopause as soon as new enemy will show up (provided you didn't turn it off in preferences).
And for just hacking at each other... this statement is lame in so many ways that I'll spend an hour explaining... so, one small advice instead - practice imagination.
And besides, it's 'vanilla RT' you are talking about, not even RTwP, not to mention SPM. So, your post is completely bogus.
 

JA2Fanatic

Novice
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Feb 13, 2005
Messages
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Location
Vienna
hi

if we say SPM is not realtime and not turnbased, many pople cant imagine how it realy works

but lets say its SPM...(for the ones who played the demo, or are beta testing)!

i never played this UFO stuff but i read that the SAS system of UFO-Aftermath shall work nearly the same way like SPM.(or is it more like combatmissions)

smart pause system/simoultanous action system. :lol:

anyways lets say its a new genre between realtime and turnbased!?

greetings
 

Balor

Arcane
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Messages
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Russia
Well, perhaps, it's more of RTwP 'with human face' though. :)
And, please, can you use caps and syntax a bit more often? After all, it's a forum, not ICQ. I have real trouble understanding you... such posts usually simply skipped.
 

Visbhume

Prophet
Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
SMP - is essentially realtime gameplay system, but each your action will be measured in seconds (up to one hundredth of a second), and each time there are enemies nearby, and you run out of orders - the game will be paused with a comment "out of actions" and a clickable icon of that idle char. Same will happen if you'll encouner new enemy, get under fire or hit, etc (everything is fully configurable).

Sounds good to me. If I understand you well, you can queue you actions. Do you mean you can pause the game and say: "I'll shoot three times at that guy and two times at that other guy, then I run away to point X", and then watch it happen in real-time ?

Also, it is party-based, or do you control only one fighter ?
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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The state of insanity.
Okay, I've said it in other threads and I will say it again here: RT is in no way shape or form more realistic than TB. Why, you ask? Simple.

Because when you are playing a video game character who has all this military or combat experience under his belt and knows all these skills that you do not IN REAL LIFE, then how can you best emulate being able to utilize ALL THEIR ABILITIES if you are running in real-time? You can't because you don't have their level of training to be able to do so. You need to be able to think through your options and choose what you feel is the best skill or action for the situation.

TB will always be more realistic simply because of that reason there. I loved JA2's approach and wish everyone would do it like that. Silent Storm did, but it had other problems that need fixed.
 

Visbhume

Prophet
Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
Otaku_Hanzo said:
how can you best emulate being able to utilize ALL THEIR ABILITIES if you are running in real-time? You can't because you don't have their level of training to be able to do so. You need to be able to think through your options and choose what you feel is the best skill or action for the situation.

You can always pause, or ralentize time.

I like both turn-based and real-time-with-pause systems. But TB has always seemed more "abstract" to me. For example: I haven't played Silent Storm, but I thought the idea of combining the abstractness of TB combat with something so time-bound and "literal" as a physics engine was odd. I wonder if this explains in part the poor sales of the game.

Also, I think RT-with-pause systems haven't reached their full potential yet.
 

Balor

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I completely agree with you, Hanzo. And, in fact, I've posted that myself before. However, like Visbhume noted, even just RTwP allows you to pause the game and thoughtfully sift through tactical options avalable.
And SPM allows you to instantly react to any threatening change in situation AND "thoughtfully sift through tactical options avalable" at any given moment... which is a trademark of TB... but without any 'side-effects' of TB like having to wait for enemy turn, or situations like I described above.
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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The state of insanity.
RTwP is gronky at best. You don't get the good AI you would from either TB or RT. If you are continually pausing the game manually, it messes with the AI's functions and that makes for a blah experience, IMO. The only times I've seen decent AI is in a completely RT game or a completely TB game. Not in a combination of both, with the exception of Jagged Alliance 2. But even that AI was pretty dumb at times, so I guess even it's not decent.

I prefer TB. Just the way it is and the way it always will be. I can handle RT, but give me TB anyday.
 

Shagnak

Shagadelic
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Sep 6, 2003
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Meh.

My brayn too slo four RT stratergee/rpg.

If me cant have TB, then me want RT with paws.

Actually, kidding aside, I do usually prefer some sort of pause functionality, over pure RT. Except if its FPS or kewl RT combat ala Severance, Rune, or the upcoming Dungeon Lords .

Strategy click-fests like C&C and a million clones just fuck me off. Well, mostly anyway. There are exceptions when there is something a little different added to the mix and I'll put up with it.
 

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