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Broken Age - Double Fine's Kickstarter Adventure Game

J_C

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Yeah, going for a Kickstarter with absolutely nothing, not even something on paper, was a bad move.
I won't say that you are wrong, but I can't really fault Tim for that. DF broke new ground with Kickstarter, they probably didn't know what to expect. It is likely that they expected a few hundred thousand dollars, from which they can quickly develop a game like felipepepe mentioned above.

They main problem was not that they didn't have a plan first, but that they planned the project in a wrong way afterwords.

In retrospect raising $3+ million was probably the worst thing to happen to DFA. Tim had to design a bigger game, but the mechanics and puzzles/gameplay didn't scale with the budget as much as the art did. If we took Broken Age's gameplay and puzzles, but put it into a game with 10% of the budget, the reception might have been better. But for that much money, people simply expected a deeper level of gameplay.
Play this: http://www.doublefine.com/games/host_master

It was done in 2009, by Tim + two other guys, and it's available for free. I had more fun with it than with all of Broken Age. It's what fans wanted, a classic old-school game with tons of humour and personality, interesting puzzles and lots of interaction. Double Fine said that the idea for the original budget was to do something like this... but then they got 3 million and it all went downhill...
I would give anything for a fullfledged game like that. I don't want to sound like a apologist (me? an apologist? no way!) but this games proves that Tim still has that spark, he could make a game like the classics of old, if he wanted to.

Although, basicly we got the old school adventure game what Tim promised. It is Host Master. :troll:
 

Boleskine

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I would give anything for a fullfledged game like that. I don't want to sound like a apologist (me? an apologist? no way!) but this games proves that Tim still has that spark, he could make a game like the classics of old, if he wanted to.

I think Klint Honeychurch might have been the brains behind Host Master, though. ;)

Dialogue by Tim Schafer and Klint Honeychurch - Game and Art by Klint Honeychurch - Music by Bert Chang

Tim has a dialogue credit, but Klint presumably designed the actual game.
 

J_C

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Meh, the point is, Double Fine could have made a game like this if they wanted to. It doesn't matter if it would be Tim's job alone or the whole team.
 

Boleskine

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Meh, the point is, Double Fine could have made a game like this if they wanted to. It doesn't matter if it would be Tim's job alone or the whole team.

The point was understood - my comment was an attempt at lightheartedness. :)

But I don't think DF had a choice after raising over 9 times their original budget. They had to expand the scope of the game, hence why many in here have said that getting so much money hurt them. I'm really not sure if Tim would have designed something more challenging with a smaller budget, though. He had all the money and time in the world to develop the puzzles and gameplay, but most of that effort went into the art (which is beautiful).

I liked Broken Age overall but recognize and agree with the criticisms. Double Fine got over $3 million and only made half of a game, which was on the easy side and didn't deliver on the "old school" point and click gameplay the kickstarter campaign had pitched.
 

buzz

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Oh, just shut the fuck up about "expanding the scope" bullshit.

Better animation and art and voice acting does not equal less of better puzzle design, funnier dialogues, more attention to detail and pouring more soul into the game. The only that was affected by "expanding the scope" was the fact that they had to cut it in two and release the second part later. If anything, this is actually better because they might make the second part better. If they released the entire game in one go, it would probably still would've been a bland POS.

There is not expanded scope in Broken Age. There is no radical experimental way of solving puzzles, no different dialogue systems, nothing that spells "expanded" outside of better animation. The only thing mildly interesting was being able to fall from clouds. Everything else was typical adventure gamey stuff.

The fault is all on how they approached the game. I didn't bother watching the documentary (also a giant failure despite the general impressions, no one is going to bother watching a entire fucking miniseries on their hipster crap, this isn't World at War or Cosmos to deserve so much of our time) but from the stuff that I saw I remember that:
1. He made his daughter choose the design of the main characters.
2. His first content reveal was a newsgrounds-level animation of a hipster lumberjack.
3. This might not be accurate, but I remember how they focused a lot in the first episodes on the art pipeline while for the puzzles it was just Tim writing them all in a day or so.
4. He was influenced by fucking Machinarium.

The game failed as an adventure game because they tried to be hip and fit with the adventure gaming mold. They made puzzles logical and easier because they didn't want the stigma of "cat hair and syrup moustache" puzzles. They tried to make a serious, coming-of-age story instead of a pure comedy because they wanted to attract the art faggots. They wanted a cartoon for toddlers art style because good old, Tex Avery-style drawings are outdated and "passe".
 
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Boleskine

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Oh, just shut the fuck up about "expanding the scope" bullshit.

Better animation and art and voice acting does not equal less of better puzzle design, funnier dialogues, more attention to detail and pouring more soul into the game. The only that was affected by "expanding the scope" was the fact that they had to cut it in two and release the second part later. If anything, this is actually better because they might make the second part better. If they released the entire game in one go, it would probably still would've been a bland POS.

There is not expanded scope in Broken Age. There is no radical experimental way of solving puzzles, no different dialogue systems, nothing that spells "expanded" outside of better animation. The only thing mildly interesting was being able to fall from clouds. Everything else was typical adventure gamey stuff.

The fault is all on how they approached the game. I didn't bother watching the documentary (also a giant failure despite the general impressions, no one is going to bother watching a entire fucking miniseries on their hipster crap, this isn't World at War or Cosmos to deserve so much of our time) but from the stuff that I saw I remember that:
1. He made his daughter choose the design of the main characters.
2. His first content reveal was a newsgrounds-level animation of a hipster lumberjack.
3. This might not be accurate, but I remember how they focused a lot in the first episodes on the art pipeline while for the puzzles it was just Tim writing them all in a day or so.
4. He was influenced by fucking Machinarium.

The game failed as an adventure game because they tried to be hip and fit with the adventure gaming mold. They made puzzles logical and easier because they didn't want the stigma of "cat hair and syrup moustache" puzzles. They tried to make a serious, coming-of-age story instead of a pure comedy because they wanted to attract the art faggots. They wanted a cartoon for toddlers art style because good old, Tex Avery-style drawings are outdated and "passe".

Wow, you completely misread my post. I wasn't making an excuse for them - I was saying that instead of actually expanding the game design, they squandered the extra funds mostly into the art. I even said this earlier:

In retrospect raising $3+ million was probably the worst thing to happen to DFA. Tim had to design a bigger game, but the mechanics and puzzles/gameplay didn't scale with the budget as much as the art did. If we took Broken Age's gameplay and puzzles, but put it into a game with 10% of the budget, the reception might have been better. But for that much money, people simply expected a deeper level of gameplay.

Nowhere did I argue that "better animation and art and voice acting" are mutually exclusive from "better puzzle design, funnier dialogues, more attention to detail and pouring more soul into the game." The entire point is that Double Fine didn't use their budget well to accomplish ALL of these things. Their approach to "expanding the scope" was not a balanced one, and it did not enhance the game itself. I explicitly said that Tim and Double Fine didn't use their extra budget to improve game design or puzzles, but instead focused it on the artwork. In other words, they failed to actually "expand the scope" of the game itself underneath the appearance.

We already had this discussion a couple weeks ago anyway, but I'm still not sure how you got the opposite impression of my posts. You're arguing against something I never said.
 
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buzz

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Well, I was arguing more against J_C's (and other DF fanboys on the Internet) defense and agreeing with your post. In retrospect I did make it sound like I was addressing you :lol:, sorry about that.
I just want people in general to stop making it sound like Broken Age was a "mistake", like it was "this close" or something. It wasn't. They're a team of insufferable cunts who prefer wanking on the idea of game development and being "artists" in the medium rather than offering a quality product to its customers.

That's why I disagree that the problem was them getting too much money. I've said it earlier in the thread, but the campaign didn't really had "stretch goals". After they goat a boatload of money, the initial promises were silly stuff like porting the game to linux, voice acting, more localization and so on. They never talked about expanding the game, even graphically or mechanically wise.

They don't even have to really expand the game in terms of content or mechanics, it's not like adventure games are known for being more than 10 hours long (best case scenario, with the hardest puzzles and shit). A 400k game and a 3 million game should have technically the same amount of content. Or else I have to believe that SpaceVenture by comparison will be 20 minutes long and only has one puzzle.

Even the so-called expanding in the animation department, I just don't find it justifiable enough. The animation feels like cutout animation in the syle of South Park, it's not like they did fluid full-body animation with rotoscoping. It's not like most of the animation for the NPCs in the game isn't anything more than talking and flailing their arms around.

So no, I don't think for 400k we'd get Host master. I'd rather think we'd get a similar boring game except now the characters flail their arms around less.
 

Boleskine

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Gotcha - I used the phrase "expanding the scope" so I thought you were responding to me. No worries. :)

At the original budget I don't think the gameplay and puzzles would have been vastly different in terms of depth or challenge, but maybe people would have had different expectations and the game wouldn't have been considered as much of a disappointment in that sense. Then again Tim was all about delivering and old school adventure experience from the original pitch, so expectations might have been all the same for the gameplay itself.

I also don't think there would be a "Host Master" type of game at 400k because, like I said before (and you've also discussed), the adventure greats of the 90s seem to be more interested in making easy games for casual markets rather than making actual old school adventures. One could look at the bigger picture and say, "Well, they used nostalgia and the loyalty of longtime fans to fund their projects, but they're not focusing on making their games for the people who made it possible." Whether they don't know how to make great adventures or they just don't care to is another matter, I suppose. Not trying to draw a big conclusion or make a universal judgment, but maybe these developers are too far disconnected from their younger selves. They've gotten too comfortable and don't want to take the kinds of risks they were willing to take 20 years ago.

It's kind of like buying tickets to a concert for your favorite 80s rock band, who is doing a reunion tour. You're super excited to see them live after they haven't toured for 10-15 years. Then when the concert starts, you notice the singer's voice is scratchy and can't hit the same notes. He also looks like shit from all the drugs he did. Two of the other band members aren't the original ones, and the songs sound a little different. At that moment you realize that your childhood or teenage idols just don't have "it" anymore, and they're well past they're prime...

But overall I did enjoy Broken Age for what it was (half of a not too difficult game), and I look forward to Act 2 in the hope that it can somewhat salvage the game, but certainly I agree with criticisms of Broken Age as an unsatisfactory final product of a $3.3 million kickstarter.
 

J_C

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g the documentary (also a giant failure despite the general impressions, no one is going to bother watching a entire fucking miniseries on their hipster crap
Why are you talking out of your ass? If there is one thing even the haters agree with is that the documentary alone is very well done. I bet 90% of the backers watch all of it.


I didn't bother watching the documentary
Then why are you talking about it? You clearly don't know anything about it.
 

buzz

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I got bored by the third episode. Am I supposed to sit through all of it to understand that it's shit?
 

Starwars

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I'm quite looking forward to part 2. IF they can manage to up the difficulty a bit then I think both acts will make for a good game. I guess it makes me a hipster douchebag casual fag, but I really enjoyed the story and how it was told in Act 1.

Of course, that doesn't really excuse that DoubleFine fucked up pretty monumentally. But yeah, as long as Act 2 feature some harder puzzles, then I'll be all over it. I don't think it needs to reach the difficulty level (more like stupidity level in some cases actually) of some of the older games, but yeah... It needs to be more difficult than Act 1 for sure.
 
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We even gave 3 million dollars to the guy, hoping he would make like 3-4 games like that
This made me curious; was it ever on the table to make multiple, smaller (but full-length) games instead of a single one after the kickstarter? Or did Tim immediately go for the Big Project? Did his collaborators ever suggest otherwise?
 

m_s0

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This made me curious; was it ever on the table to make multiple, smaller (but full-length) games instead of a single one after the kickstarter? Or did Tim immediately go for the Big Project? Did his collaborators ever suggest otherwise?
I think he meant that the success of an oldschool adventure game by Tim Schafer could've spawned a few more of those. AFAIK it was always one game. A very tiny game initially (watch that chat between Ron Gilbert and Schafer. It was posted in this thread not so long ago, I think).
 
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At a basic level, I've got no problem with the direction BA took. He's made oldschool adventure games back when oldschool adventure games were at their height, so there's no pressing artistic reason for him to do so. I'm not even sure that he should even try to do so - how could he approach that kind of game without simply trying to copy (with small innovations) what he's already done?

I know a lot of people will read that and say "YES - that's exactly what we WANTED him to do!!!". But there's a huge difference between the kind of product you'll get from someone authentically trying to be creative and boundary-pushing during the era of adventure games, i.e. trying to make something original and coming up with an oldschool adventure game, and the product you'll get from someone who is cynically copying his past work. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed failure - the new Tex Murphy game oozes artistic authenticity, and you can tell the developers were as excited as all fuck and making the game they wanted, which just happened to be like their old games. But usually, an artist that tries to copy his own early work will fail miserably - he no longer thinks the same way, and he's now trying to work to a fixed template, resulting in a lifeless product where every failure to meet that original template stands out, because there's no new inspiration to balance out the inevitable copying errors.

The problem with it, though, is that it's a huge marketing fail. I don't mean marketing as in 'advertising' or PR. I mean, in terms of identifying who your target market is, and designing your product accordingly.

Kickstarter benefits developers who want to make products that have a built-in audience, but one that isn't being served by the publisher oligopoly. It's not a good platform for genuinely new ideas, and it's a terrible one for genres that are well-served already. For all the complaints about Hepler's writing, the reason why her Kickstarter failed was simply because there wasn't enough in there that isn't adequately served by the mainstream industry. Why should people give that company free money when there are other products serving that same market segment?

So from a market view, there's good sense in making an oldschool adventure game, and the success of BA's Kickstarter confirmed that there's a sizeable market segment that's underexploited by the industry. His mistake was taking that success as a basis for skewing the product away from that very market. By bending towards the mainstream, he blundered across into a different market segment altogether, setting himself up to be wtfpwned by publisher-backed games that already serve the new segment. Like many developers, he seems to have overlooked that market selection isn't just about the total size of the segment, but also about how much competition there is. He had a market segment that was so neglected that it was lying in bed, with a come hither pose and its legs wide open, offering to pay him as much money as he needed to stay home from work that day and give it a good rogering, and after taking the poor lass's money, he abandoned her so he could flirt with the woman down the road who, despite being slightly prettier, made him wait in line with 12 other suitors to get a few minutes of her attention and a kiss on the cheek.

But just because he could have gotten away with just going through the missionary position for 2 minutes before getting up for a beer and some tv, that doesn't mean it was the optimum position. The market segment might have been content with that, but only because she's been so badly abused in her relationships with the gaming industry. She's spent so long telling herself 'things will get better, things will go back to how they were at the beginning', even though she knows that isn't true, and feels ashamed for not simply walking out on computer games, that she thinks a developer who provides the minimum of service because he's too lazy to pursue other markets, is the best she deserves. But a decent, moral, developer can't just take advantage of that. If he wants to look at himself in the mirror the next day, he better fucking well deliver like the lovechild of Don Juan and Christian Gray for the next 12 hours.

So his thinking was half-right. But he was so infatuated with the idea of the woman down the road that when he thought about how this day of lust should go, and it had been so long since he'd approached her with this kind of enthusiasm, that her tastes were no longer instinctive to him. During the golden years, he'd never had to do anything so crass as asking what the market wanted, he just tried what came naturally and it had worked. His friends counselled him that it's normal in long-term relationships to have to put more effort into learning your partner's tastes after a few years, and that he can't to rely on intuition forever, but this seemed absurd (after all, he could get that hot market segment down the road instead of her, so why wouldn't she be pleased with whatever he provided?) So he just went with what was intuitive, and like his friends warned, it 'just happened' to be very similar to what that other market segment liked (or what he thought she liked - he wouldn't admit it, but he'd never actually gotten anywhere with that market segment down the road).

So he arrived back home in an S&M outfit and the most lavish, outrageously expensive, handcuffs, whips and chains he could find. He'd seen a suitor with similar materials being invited in by the market segment down the road, just a few days ago, and so he was confident that it would deliver everything his lonely segment had dreamed of. But when he got to the bedroom, she had a look of abject disappointment. 'I...don't you remember? I never liked bondage - otherwise back in college, I'd have dated that sweet Drew Karphshynn instead of you!" she murmured.
"But I've planned our whole day! I've done so much work - I was just so pleased by how devoted you were, that I wanted to do something really grand for you!"
"I know, and I appreciate it, sort of....I mean I wanted this kind of effort from you. I only asked for a few minutes in the missionary position because I thought if I wanted anything more, you'd leave me for that horrible market segment down the road. But this isn't it. In fact, it's insulting. Even when you're trying to do something for me, you're only thinking about what she might like. You never even considered taking the time to talk to me, to ask me whether I'd like something, because you were too afraid that [mock expression of shock] you'd have to adjust your plans to meet my needs. I don't know what's worse - that you've become so distant that you have no idea what I'd like the moment you go beyond what we've done before, that you never considered talking to me about it, or that when you do make an effort, you can't even tell that I've got completely different tastes to that market segment."
Double-fine frowned. "I...I don't know where to start. It's been years since you've been happy with anything I've done. And it's not like there are any other developers servicing your needs who I could take tips from. And I don't want to lifelessly go through the motions of what we used to do. If my intuitions aren't good enough for you anymore, what hope do we have?"

"Double-fine, stop feeling sorry for yourself and listen to me. If you're going to reconnect with me, it will take more than throwing everything you have into one grand effort. Start with the small things. Don't think of it as just going through the motions of what we've already done - treat it as a starting point, something that works and can be used to explore new ideas. There are sick, depraved people out there who like to peek through windows these sort of things in their early stages (personally, I don't understand why anyone would ruin their experience like that, but as I said, they're sick and depraved). Use the old model as a base, and then see how people react to what you add to it. If you're not sure whether I'll still like something with difficult puzzles, or whether I'll be lost if faced with a text parser, create something small - even a java-based online game - and let me refresh my memory. Create an alt at some of the forums I attend, and if you can't get back into my headspace, at least refamiliarise yourself with it enough that you can understand me. And yes, use your imagination and give me something I haven't experienced before - but not when all you have to go on are decade-old memories."


TL;DR - Schaeffer should have known that he'd need more than a purely old-school adventure game (if he truly wanted a $300,000 game, he could have taken a personal loan), and should have come prepared with an idea to extend the genre in a way that was still aimed exclusively at the market segment that threw money at him. His problem wasn't that he extended the game model - it's that he did so in a way that watered down its core appeal, for the sake of customers who had a surplus of alternatives.
 

Metro

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Shit's on sale... AGAIN. How many times has it been? Wonder if it hits a bundle before the second half comes out.
 

Boleskine

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http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/14578/

Huzzah, a project update! Been busy times over here at DF headquarters, so some fun stuff to update you guys on.

Shay’s half of Act 2 is officially at Alpha. We did a full playthrough with the team a few weeks ago and were SUPER pleased with how it went. Last week we also had a HOF to playtest this section with the whole company which was great as well. Always fun to show the other teams what we’ve been working on all this time. Both of these things left everyone on Team Reds really energized and ready to get started on Vella’s section. That’s what the next couple months will be focused on as we march towards trying to bring the whole act to alpha by early October.

All of the dialog for Shay’s half has now been recorded with our fabulous voice cast and implemented in the game, so we’ve got the SuperGenius folks coming on board to start taking those animations to a beta level of polish. It will be awesome to have this work going in parallel to our Vella alpha work, as things should be looking pretty good when we roll back to Shay beta work.

As for Tim, he’s still on lock down as he works to hit his FINAL writing deadline. I’m sure we’ll all be celebrating when that happens. So many lines!!

Things are starting to shape up quite nicely! Looking forward to showing you more in the next doc episode!
 

buzz

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:( really hope they'll do better this time.
It doesn't even have to have "hardcore" puzzles or something like that. Just make it fun, something on the level of Telltale's Sam and Max games would be enough.
 

evdk

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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
As for Tim, he’s still on lock down as he works to hit his FINAL writing deadline. I’m sure we’ll all be celebrating when that happens. So many lines!!
I do not doubt that.
XLPoExu.jpg
 

Boleskine

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I do not doubt that.
XLPoExu.jpg

GstF4U6.png


Not to mention this from Shay's act:
image-3-broken-age.jpg


And Vella's home is called Sugar Bunting - another reference to white powder.

The hints were there all along! Broken Age is about cocaine addiction.
 

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