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Burn the decline! Kill the doritos! Purge the Popamole! What was decline in original Fallouts?

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Of course the basics of the systems probably can't be change.

How about you explain what you dislike about the basics and they can explain to you whether they can change them.
 
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But yeah, kudos on being butthurt that I state my opinion of the shittiest thing in Fallout in a thread about what people think is the shittiest thing in Fallout.
Well I'll be dammed. And here I thought you were just trolling and so have responded in kind. Far be it from me to deny you the opportunity to criticize the SPECIAL system. By all means, knock yourself out, the post I have responded to was a bit light on the details.
 
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He's going to start about linear dicerolls for skillchecks, which is a valid point of criticism. I'd suggest going with the Sawyeristic approach of resource-bound thresholds like I do where I can in my own glorious mod.
 
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Not sure if you are referring to this, but the whole concept of skill progression in SPECIAL is really, really weird. You go over 100% (why even use percentage values for this then?), but values only up to about 100 - 150% or so are actually useful for anything. And you start with useless skill levels only to (too) quickly level them up, smoothing this curve a bit would be a good idea in my book. I was only half kidding about using GURPS, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea. The guy in charge of GURPS doesn't strike me as someone that would tolerate this even for a free fan game.
 
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Not sure if you are referring to this, but the whole concept of skill progression in SPECIAL is really, really weird. You go over 100% (why even use percentage values for this then?), but values only up to about 100 - 150% or so are actually useful for anything. And you start with useless skill levels only to (too) quickly level them up, smoothing this curve a bit would be a good idea in my book. I was only half kidding about using GURPS, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea. The guy in charge of GURPS doesn't strike me as someone that would tolerate this even for a free fan game.

I was talking about the rolls themselves, which are insanely structured so that (disregarding penalties) with 20% skill you have 20% chance of succeeding, meaning rote repetition is almost always the road to success. GURPS uses 3d6, which makes for a bell-curve, meaning you'd instead have around 5% chance of succeeding in the same scenario, which is of course at least somewhat better. I still think you're better off avoiding skill rollls in these kinds of crpg's altogether (unless you want to do revolutionary stuff like making sound and time when lockpicking matter, etc.) and just sticking to thresholds (a 50% lock can only, and will always, be picked with 50% skill and up), but with resources providing flexibility (with 40% you can still pick the lock, only at the cost of more lockpicks).

You're right, for my own thing I capped skills back to 200% and started the cost increments at 75 (also with attributes being more important for the base values of stats, which were really random in vanilla). Also, I tried to make high skill levels more important through the resource-bound thresholds thing.
 
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I see, yes I definitely agree with this. Especially with better default values for skills that are strongly based on stats. That part is really strange - they were originally making a GURPS game only to switch later, yet the initial skill values are pitiful and stats barely affect them. A difference between a stat of 1 and a stat of 10 should mean a huge difference in any skill based on that stat, not something that you can make up in one level. Or maybe even at all - maybe the highest levels of skill (that would still be useful occasionally) should only even be possible for a character with a high corresponding stat. No brain surgery skills for idiots, that kind of thing.
 
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Exactly what the topic title says. I was wondering on what exactly can be considered popamole in the original Fallout games. Includes Fallout Tactics as well, due to some improvements we might take from it.

I will start:
- Magical hands first aid/doctor healing (without any item lol)

If realism is our reference point, then in the historical sense, being a doctor is the general knowledge and application of environmental agents that can do stuff to your health. Fallout being a game, I find it a perfectly reasonable degree of abstraction the way this worked in Fallout. As you can recall, having a First Aid Kit or a Doctor's Bag made a reasonably big difference. The one flaw I find with the implementation is that those items served to increase the skill level instead of being requirements for certain degrees of healing, which was rather simplistic as you could do away with those items with high enough skill.

- Heal with rest, even through you just got sent to a inch of your life by repeated high-caliber shots.
- Eye-shots are too easy

Indeed. If healing from fatal wounds or scoring fatal shots wasn't so trivial, the way you approached the entire game might have been different, emphasizing non-combat and combat tactics in general without being too JA-ish and still retaining that arcadey simplicity.
 

tuluse

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Problem with just making them universally harder is that they just end up useless until the last 2% of the game or so. Making higher THC's with eyes progressively harder (e.g. going from 90-100% costing ten times the amount of skill as going from 0-10%) keeps them as a (very risky) option throughout the game.
This would be neato.

Also, maybe specific AC for different target points with different armors. So combat and power armor with helmets would lower chance to hit head and eyes.

Or even a helmet armor slot (this might ruin the mad max feel though).
 
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Also, maybe specific AC DT/DR for different target points with different armors. So combat and power armor with helmets would lower chance to hit give head and eyes higher DT/DR.

Fixed it you AC-loving weirdo :cool:

Also, I always imagined metal and leather armors also having Mad Max-style improvised helmets that just didn't show on the sprites, but maybe that's just me.

hexer, would FOnline allow for localized armor (legs, torso, helmet, etc.)? Cause that'd be really neat, and would enhance the improvised Mad Max feel of it for me, even if you couldn't represent it in the models.
 
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hexer

Guest
hexer, would FOnline allow for localized armor (legs, torso, helmet, etc.)? Cause that'd be really neat, and would enhance the improvised Mad Max feel of it for me, even if you couldn't represent it in the models.

Yep, Russians are implementing 5-piece armors for their FOnline game "Next Day" and they will implement it visually as well. It would be neat to have something like that. At the moment, I have the two standard Van Buren armor slots - head and body.
 
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hexer, would FOnline allow for localized armor (legs, torso, helmet, etc.)? Cause that'd be really neat, and would enhance the improvised Mad Max feel of it for me, even if you couldn't represent it in the models.

Yep, Russians are implementing 5-piece armors for their FOnline game "Next Day" and they will implement it visually as well. It would be neat to have something like that. At the moment, I have the two standard Van Buren armor slots - head and body.

2D or 3D sprites?
Won't the cool 3D characters you plan to use make it easy to put that in?
Althrough I think one would have to balance these gear somewhat, I mean, being covered from head to toe in steel armor should cost the player something, me thinks.
 

hexer

Guest
3D models, I doubt we'll ever see something like that in 2D. We could implement the 5 pieces armor into the game since we have crafting system already -> you combine 5 pieces into a single armor.
 

Grunker

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But yeah, kudos on being butthurt that I state my opinion of the shittiest thing in Fallout in a thread about what people think is the shittiest thing in Fallout.
Well I'll be dammed. And here I thought you were just trolling and so have responded in kind. Far be it from me to deny you the opportunity to criticize the SPECIAL system. By all means, knock yourself out, the post I have responded to was a bit light on the details.

1) Linear dicerolls and point spending for skills.

2) Uneven and poorly designed stat-system. Everybody needs to be intelligent, and you need to look up strategy guides for the specific effects of some stats.

3) Very much of the simplistic side in terms of options. Not enough strategic choice. Perks salvage much of this, which is why I think any decent iteration of SPECIAL has less impactful perks but allow you to pick one on each level-up.

That's my basic triad of criticism against the system. I think the system being so simplistic is the main offender here, but like I said, expanding strategic choice can alleviate a bit of that.

As for smaller concerns, I dislike the way that the mechanics of the system are not very transparant. Like figuring out your exact To Hit when aiming at someone and similar shit. Though much of this is fixed by providing the player with proper info during combat.
 

hiver

Guest
Yeah, for example I always wanted to earn money with my high Doctor or Repair skill - not just heal myself or solve quests with them.
Not only that - but there need to be quests and solutions to the quests and relations to/with NPCs based on medical skill.

Fuse the fucking first aid and doctor into one skill. Let the player start with first aid only - then advance that into higher doctor skills, through interaction with appropriate NPCs, medical books/computers and other investing skill points into MEDICINE skill.
Make advancing into a full doctor dependent on levels of First Aid achieved first.
Make supplies and medical items necessary to heal bigger critical injuries.
remove the overabundance of medical items in the world - especially stimpacks. Those should be rare and wondrous leftovers from the past.


Eye shots - should be removed, or rather re-delegated.
Make an eye shot an injury - a consequence of a critical shot to the head.

Alternatively or additionally - allow eye shots to even exist - ONLY for highly skilled fighters.
The amount and types of targeted shots should increase with the skill - i.e. be directly dependent on the weapon skill levels. Start with only a few basic ones - then LEARN new ones as your skill increases.

Disable sleep spamming. Only 8 hours of sleep per day.
Only small amounts of healing achieved through it - while it should not heal critical status effects - without a doctor and supplies.



- edit-

while im at it...

Disable healing during combat. Disable saving during combat!!!



- also...
How much Ap you have should not be dependent on one attribute.

It really should depend on synergy calculation between Strength, Endurance and Dexterity.
 
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which is why I think any decent iteration of SPECIAL has less impactful perks but allow you to pick one on each level-up..

Would probably be a good idea. You'd just need to do some stuff like double/tripple up the AP count/costs so that you can affect them through perks/traits without causing too much damage.

While on the subject of traits, if you guys can split up traits into advantages and disadvantages with various costs attached, that'd make those a lot more interesting as well.
 

Grunker

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which is why I think any decent iteration of SPECIAL has less impactful perks but allow you to pick one on each level-up..

Would probably be a good idea. You'd just need to do some stuff like double/tripple up the AP count/costs so that you can affect them through perks/traits without causing too much damage.

While on the subject of traits, if you guys can split up traits into advantages and disadvantages with various costs attached, that'd make those a lot more interesting as well.

Great idea. Iimplement under/overpowered traits like in FO but balance them with cost instead.
 

Whisky

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Yeah, for example I always wanted to earn money with my high Doctor or Repair skill - not just heal myself or solve quests with them.
Fuse the fucking first aid and doctor into one skill. Let the player start with first aid only - then advance that into higher doctor skills, through interaction with appropriate NPCs, medical books/computers and other investing skill points into MEDICINE skill.
Make advancing into a full doctor dependent on levels of First Aid achieved first.
Make supplies and medical items necessary to heal bigger critical injuries.

I agree with this, at the very least just combining the two. First Aid and Doctor have always seemed redundant, especially when you consider how useless they both were in Fallout 1/2. It's not my call on the project, but I'd support it.
 

hexer

Guest
Why not, we can call it Medicine and give your player a title of Medic at 75% and MD at 125%. We could grant those titles for other skills as well :cool:
 

hiver

Guest
Really?


...


fucking hell...

Dont forget all of that can be used to create additional options in solving and affecting various sub quests inside locations and to affect NPCs by it in different ways.
The simplest example i usually give is - heal some specific deadly injury or poisoning or sickness of the raider wife or a kid and get raiders on your side or arrange for a truce, or alliance with some other party, etc. -

Same could be done for Repair and Outdorsman too.
Though Outdorsman would require more work to become influential in the immediate gameplay itself, so thats just a wild suggestion. (although i have a complete very good system-idea for it but its more something i would maybe use one day if i make some kind of similar game)

Repair would be much easier to upgrade in terms of uses in the gameplay and quests itself, of course.
Since it was already working like that in some cases in the games.
 

Johannes

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Combat was probably the worst part of Fallout. Little in the way of tactics beyond stepping in and out of cover, otherwise you basically just shoot at each other again and again be it in the eyes or otherwise.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Combat was probably the worst part of Fallout. Little in the way of tactics beyond stepping in and out of cover, otherwise you basically just shoot at each other again and again be it in the eyes or otherwise.
Occasionally broken by shooting someone in the balls instead for lulz.
 
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Little in the way of tactics beyond stepping in and out of cover

Reminds me, I had this idea a while ago to partially "solve" the peek around the corner exploit, but couldn't try it in FO2 (yet) because there's no way to find tilenumbers under the cursor. Basically you'd simulate turning speed: you can only move straight forward or diagonally forward, and turning in place would cost AP. That'd make peeking cost some additional AP at least, plus it might make you think about movement and facing a bit more, which might be interesting.
 

hiver

Guest
How about if the enemy would get an attack of opportunity every time you peek around the corner? But not as some very precise shot, more a kind of a quick reaction.

- some skill or mechanic could be used to modify how often it happens and how many enemies get it - if there are more then one.

- you could use that for tougher - smarter enemies, which would be a nice little trick or addition that would make them look and feel like smarter-more dangerous (in addition to anything else they use or skills they have)
 
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I you do end up spoiling the virginal purity of TB and introduce attacks of opportunity, at least make it an active process that has drawbacks involved: spend AP or defence to "concentrate" on one particular enemy and react to their actions.
 

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