Interview Chris Avellone is still pretty mad about Obsidian

[Roguey]

Sophisms aside, they have a board with elements of the story/mechanics/etc that are rated from A to D. A being of critical importance. B that should be in, but could conceivably be cut. Etc. They planned it that way. They planned beforehand that they could cut the B things and C things, and the general design of the game allowed it. And so they should've. But they didn't. And that's on him.

Everything they explicitly promised as a stretch goal was A priority.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Sophisms aside, they have a board with elements of the story/mechanics/etc that are rated from A to D. A being of critical importance. B that should be in, but could conceivably be cut. Etc. They planned it that way. They planned beforehand that they could cut the B things and C things, and the general design of the game allowed it. And so they should've. But they didn't. And that's on him.

Everything they explicitly promised as a stretch goal was A priority.

Everything you saw in game on release wasn't A or even B for that matter. Ask your homohusbando.

 

[Prime Junta]

ail at making a muscle wizard or ranged paladin.

Who the fuck cares? Is the point of RPGs to allow you any kind of build and reward you for it? If you want to have some special build YOU should work for it, it's not the game that has to give it to you on a platter.

Uh... did you just switch sides without telling anyone? 'Cuz the builds in BG2 are precisely "handed to you on a platter" -- i.e., you pick a class and if you're not completely stupid or intentionally gimping yourself, distribute your stats in the optimal way and then click "level up" when that little + appears, whereas in Pillars you have to "work for it" -- i.e., think carefully which attribute, talent, ability, and item combination works best for whichever build you're after.

You might still find a way to beat the game with whatever you made, but then people found ways to beat BG2 using ridiculously gimped characters.

And? Would BG2 be a better game if those ridiculously gimped characters were not possible?
I know this is the Sawyerist belief, so it's more of a rhetorical question.

Of course it wouldn't. But then you can make ridiculously gimped builds in Pillars as well. For starters, you can set all your stats to 1.

Bottom line is, Pillars' character system however just is objectively better

Sure, and BG2 would be better with no gimped builds. OBJECTIVELY.

Grasping for straws much?

 

[Severian Silk]

I am pretty mad at Obsidian too. Can someone make a newspost?

 

[Volourn]

"Icewind Dale 2 - Inherited from a lead designer who quit because he believed it would have been an embarrassment on his record, was on it for a few months before getting back on The Black Hound, a lot of problems stemming from the extremely short schedule.
NWN2 - Inherited from a lead designer who quit because he used the position to springboard himself into a job for Bioware (which he used to springboard himself into Bethesda once it started looking far more appealing), spent all his time on triage because it was a total mess and they had months to go until they had to ship something
New Vegas - Bethesda noticed that were doing such a good job that they decided to move up the release date by a few weeks
Pillars of Eternity - If it was up to him, they wouldn't have gone that wild with features with only 29 months. "

TDLR: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!


p.s. New Vegas is pretty dman good. BY FAR, Sawyer's best work and the only reason why I can give him *some* credit for being decent at his job. Everythging else is a sequel worse than the original or a rip off that absolutely fails... but, hey, PE had dwarves so they got my money anyways./ HAHAHAHA!

 

[Sizzle]

p.s. New Vegas is pretty dman good. BY FAR, Sawyer's best work and the only reason why I can give him *some* credit for being decent at his job. Everythging else is a sequel worse than the original or a rip off that absolutely fails... but, hey, PE had dwarves so they got my money anyways./ HAHAHAHA!

Is this your most anticipated game, by any chance? :D

 

[Santander02]

All this talk about muscled wizards...

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Muscle_Wizard

Sounds p. awesome to me

 

[Excidium II]

There's no excuse for a wizard to be a weakling. He got magic.

 

[Irenaeus]

There's no excuse for a wizard to be a weakling. He got magic.

Corruption.

 

[Excidium II]

There's no excuse for a wizard to be a weakling. He got magic.

Corruption.

All the more reason to be strong and fit.

 

[Roguey]

All the more reason to be strong and fit.

 

[Excidium II]

'sup

 

[hpstg]

Isn't restricting the way an RPG can be played, the definition of popamole? You create a "corridor" that restricts the player, effectively killing choice.

That doesn't mean that intentionally gimped characters should be able to "win" the game. But they have to be able to be roleplayed until their natural ending condition within the game's context. The system of the game should allow and calculate for them and a good system should support weird playthroughs. I will not go into the whole "muscular mage" debate, because it depends on the specific system, character and game design.

If we see RPGs as systems allowing for rough simulations of particular game worlds, then unconventional builds have to be supported. That doesn't mean that they have to get the standard experience, or difficulty. The Fallout 1 retarded build is a very good example of this.

 

[Flou]

He's just freelancing. Don't think that affects his opinion and is not the first time he praises their stuff. Tim Cain loves Beth Fallouts too.

Maybe not his opinion, but it sure as hell will affect what he will say on social media or to media people. He doesn't have a steady job, so if he wants a writing gig at Bethesda again he has to tread carefully what he says about that company and their games.

Not to mention that hardly anyone bashes other's works in media when it comes to the gaming industry. Usually it is to critize their own previous work, what they could have done better etc.

 

[hpstg]

There is also the concept of good manners that might be applicable here. Normal people don't usually speak about others in their field in the same manner as the brave Codexers posting semi anonymously in the forum.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Uh... did you just switch sides without telling anyone? 'Cuz the builds in BG2 are precisely "handed to you on a platter" -- i.e., you pick a class and if you're not completely stupid or intentionally gimping yourself, distribute your stats in the optimal way

What? I like how you're going for the old switcheroo, but this is not what I'm talking about. By "handed to you" I mean when no matter how you push the buttons you still get relatively similar builds in power level.

whereas in Pillars you have to "work for it" -- i.e., think carefully which attribute, talent, ability, and item combination works best for whichever build you're after.

Dude, give it a break. I really don't care about this CRAZY build (OMFG MUSLE SCORCEROR!!!! aka sniper with knives) bullshit. Failing to create the best muscle wizard is hardly an issue, just like say it's hardly an issue if you don't distribute the points perfectly for a fighter build in BG.
Also these CRAZY builds are possible because the developers accounted for them, it's certainly not YOU who came up with them and therefore the whole building process is reduced to figuring out what the developers thought, rather than through actual playing which is what I mean when I say you should work for it rather than have it handed to you.
That is of course if your ultimate goal is to do this CRAZY build no matter what and not only finishing the game.

Isn't restricting the way an RPG can be played, the definition of popamole? You create a "corridor" that restricts the player, effectively killing choice.

What the fuck?


Who talks about restricting?
If anything, everything being on the same level is killing choice. 1+2=3 or 2+1=3 is a choice only for muscle wizard fans.

 

[Excidium II]

Play moar RPGs, or at least download PDFs and read them. Your posts ITT are painful to read for the informed.

Failing to create the best muscle wizard is hardly an issue

Yes it is. if there's one thing magic should easily assist with is lifting.

 

[Jasede]

The thing is, making a melee-based muscle-wizard has usually always been relatively doable; we didn't need a "all stats are equal" system to pull it off. I played ranged zen archer paladins and STR-based buff-magic melee wizards in 3.5 without a single problem. This whole 'balancing' crap makes no sense to me.

 

[Excidium II]

^ You are p. fucken dumb if you think all stats are equal in PoE.

Btw the "any build is viable" meme has less to do with the system design and more to do with the fact the game is p. easy for the most part so requires little understanding of the mechanics to succeed much like IE games

 

[Delterius]

Failing to create the best muscle wizard is hardly an issue

Yes it is. if there's one thing magic should easily assist with is lifting.

Going by just the rules system from the IE games, making a fighter/mage hybrid isn't about physical strenght. Its about martial training. That is, the fighter bonuses to THAC0 / Attack and Hitpoints. Or the ability to use certain weapons and armor. Your innate Strenght plays a huge part of it, and there are spells which do allow you to reach high scores, but that's not the point at all.

^ You are p. fucken dumb if you think all stats are equal in PoE.

Btw the "any build is viable" meme has less to do with the system design and more to do with the fact the game is p. easy for the most part so requires little understanding of the mechanics to succeed

Nice pivot there. You chose to ignore the main point of the post, which is that the older games allowed for build diversity without any of the constant rebalancing from PoE's design. And yes, its was a stated goal of the systems' design to maximize choice by constantly fine tuning everything you can possibly do. The game was inspired by competitive multiplayer products like League of Legends. Its not a bad goal in itself. Its the mainstream sort of design you'd find in 2014. But for anyone who's played newer games and chose to get rid of them, its just the tiring old dance of doing things exactly like the developers expect you to. Solid enough because its Obsidian and Sawyer is a good pipeline manager. But not quite as memorable.

 

[Infinitron]

I like to think that Chris Avellone is reading this thread and weeping.

 

[Excidium II]

Nice pivot there. You chose to ignore the main point of the post, which is that the older games allowed for build diversity without any of the constant rebalancing from PoE's design.

PoE works better and requires more figuring out as evident by the level of dumbass ITT

Going by just the rules system from the IE games, making a fighter/mage hybrid isn't about physical strenght. Its about martial training. That is, the fighter bonuses to THAC0 / Attack and Hitpoints. Or the ability to use certain weapons and armor. Your innate Strenght plays a huge part of it, and there are spells which do allow you to reach high scores, but that's not the point at all.

I know and nobody asked

 

[Jasede]

Nice pivot there. You chose to ignore the main point of the post, which is that the older games allowed for build diversity without any of the constant rebalancing from PoE's design.

PoE works better and requires more figuring out as evident by the level of dumbass ITT

Perhaps you can elaborate on this. My impression of PoE was that even maxing essential stats results in pathetic, at most, 30% or so damage boosts, at which point you might as well just balance your stats in the hopes of making most dialogue checks. Even on the Path of the Damned difficulty I had no need of the small benefits one stat gave over the other.

 

[Delterius]

PoE works better and requires more figuring out as evident by the level of dumbass ITT

You are the one who thinks PoE requires figuring out and other people are dumb? Dude, none of these games are particularly complex.

 

[Excidium II]

Yet it eludes you