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Atrokkus

Erudite
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
Dialogues and D2-like combat don't mix well.
Hmm. You mean the combat-system, or the combat intensiveness of D2?
If the former, then you are pretty much wrong: D2's system was very good -- simplistic, yes, but it worked remarkably well, *and* it is surely a stat-based system, not even a real action-stat hybrid (well, it does require some hand deft, but it's more a product of real-time element).
Damn, most RPGs should look at Diablo2 with admiration and praise, and try to learn from it, because the item-system, simple-but-interesting crafting and character systems, as well as aforementioned combat system, are great and can even appeal to a non-munchkin sort of players.
Of course, you can't just copy it... the social skills and perks are absolutely necessary for a real RPG, but it's not really hard to add it to them.
See where I'm gettin at? Make a fucking RPG-mod for Diablo!!! ^_^
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
NLP is nowhere near ready to do anything close to simulating actual dialogue. Sure, you can fool a human reader... For about five minutes, and only because most people tend to communicate senseless crap like: "Hello", "Hey", "How are you doing?", "Fine, how about you?" Anything more complicated than that, anything even resembling an actual discussion, and we're in deep trouble.

Sure, we can put a man on the moon, but getting to the moon is far easier than getting into the human mind. And that is what will ultimately be required for true NLP, for language cannot exist without thought.

The question, then, is not whether you will use NLP, but how you intend to use it as a supplement to, rather than a replacement for, actual dialogue. Therein lies the near future, provided that we do not dispense of dialogue altogether.
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
3,910
Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
While I agree with your assessment of supplement versus replacement, "nowhere near" is being too harsh. I'm too lazy to pull out links to projects right now to prove you wrong...but you were too lazy to really back up your statement ;)

Obviously there's much mroe work to be done until I get my sex bot that screams "oh daddy fuck me harder. yeah right there in my dirty place!"

Ooops. did i reveal too much?
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
And I do wonder if there is some way to have a dialogue or communicate information to the player that allows you to do something more interactive than just reading or listening while the PCs are communicating information to you and still allow you to make meaningful choices.

I'm not sure I really get this statement. Since dialogue is a two-way thing, the player needs to pay attention in order to effectively respond. If the player doesn't have to think about their response, then either the dialogue itself is weak, or you're not offering enough interaction on the player side.

Of course, the statement could also be interpreted as providing a player with a means of responding with expressions during lengthy exposition, much the way a real human would nod, gesture or possibly interrupt in response to a soliloquy. But that in itself is hardly a meaningful reaction, it's little more than an indicator that you're actually paying attention. At best it could evoke something on a spectrum of "<pause> Are you even listening?" to "Oh, you're such a good listener, I'm really glad I've finally found someone who understands me, and doesn't think I get all worked up over the most trivial of things."

All in all, I think that the problem is best solved by targetting tedious dialogue at the source, but there's nothing wrong with some innovation along the way.

Balor said:
Ok, we can have a better system: <snip>

Interesting ideas, but it seems a little convoluted, and likely to disrupt the natural flow of dialogue if the player has to specify a great list of modifiers in order to make a simple statement. Adding to that effect is the fact that gameplay interaction from the player's perspective is actually "Someguy, identity, cheerful, bribe" and the actual manifestation of the phrase is mostly redundant.

It may just be me personally, but in games that have tried similar systems (Daggerfall, Wizards and Warriors) I pay little to no attention to the essential repetition (plus fluff) of my response. The natural way to converse is NPC speaks, Player responds, repeat. Your idea extends this to NPC speaks, Player responds, Player reads generated text, repeat.

It's interesting fluff in the same vein as verbose (as opposed to terse) combat text in Fallout, but you could quite easily disable the display of the final generated phrase, and it doesn't change the actual gameplay. I'm not completely dismissing the idea, but it seems to me that it would turn dialogue into yet another measured gameplay component, or "tactical talking" as opposed to a reasonable imitation of social interaction.
 

Avin

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2004
Messages
377
Location
brasil
Sammael said:
I cannot believe I'm seeing the words "interesting" and "Final Fantasy" in the same sentence...

Final Fantasy VI is more than interesting, it's a excelent game and made history when released.
 

Sammael

Liturgist
Joined
May 16, 2003
Messages
312
Location
Hell on Earth
I don't think it was ever released on the PC, was it? I do not own a console and haven't owned one since Sega Master System (a LONG time ago), and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it on the PC.

OTOH, the ones I did see (VII? VIII?) bored me to tears with repetitive gameplay.
 

TheGreatGodPan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,762
Azarkon said:
Sure, we can put a man on the moon, but getting to the moon is far easier than getting into the human mind.
A sufficient amount of force applied to the cranium should get you there pretty quick.
 

dunduks

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
389
Sammael said:
I don't think it was ever released on the PC, was it? I do not own a console and haven't owned one since Sega Master System (a LONG time ago), and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it on the PC.
It was on SNES, to play on PC all you need is good emulator (like ZSnes) and download a rom, and its smooth sailing from there.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
DarkSign said:
While I agree with your assessment of supplement versus replacement, "nowhere near" is being too harsh. I'm too lazy to pull out links to projects right now to prove you wrong...but you were too lazy to really back up your statement ;)

Obviously there's much mroe work to be done until I get my sex bot that screams "oh daddy fuck me harder. yeah right there in my dirty place!"

Ooops. did i reveal too much?

Well, I'm speaking from the perspective of what I know of the state of the art in NLP. I suppose I should provide some background. NLP is a broad field, but of relevance to this discussion are probably these three areas:

Unsupervised Grammatical Induction
Supervised Learning
NL Generation

All of these currently suffer from problems of "understanding." That is, you can statistically model grammars and language bases, but there's no elegant way you can get the computer to actually understand what was said. What has been done in that area has generally been the application of gimmicks that attempt to infer what was said from the frequency of words and structures, but all that gets you are things like chatbots and question-answer machines: ie systems that do no more than repeat knowledge and information gleaned from the input ad nauseum. They do not "think", and therefore are incapable of carrying out a real dialogue. They can only repeat what's been said and what's in their knowledge base, which is fine for the purposes of being an interface into information, but not so as a simulation of real dialogue. Play around with a chatbot for a while, for instance, and anyone can quickly figure out its rules and quirks, and therefore dismiss it as just another program.

I'd love to see examples of these "projects" you keep mentioning, btw. Might give some insight as to how to make the best use of what technology we have now. Rest assured, though, that the technology is simply not there, not even close, to actual NLP. Some of the best people in the field have predicted that we *might* be able to get a computer to analyze a page from English literature "correctly" in about 50 years. As of now, we can't even get it to understand slightly complicated human conversation.

From the last lecture I attended by Lotfi Zadeh, I also gleaned that fuzzy logic wasn't really being adopted and that there hasn't been real progress in that field for some time now. He did inform me, though, that were his approach more largely adopted, it could lead to revolutionary changes. But there's no guarantee.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
TheGreatGodPan said:
Azarkon said:
Sure, we can put a man on the moon, but getting to the moon is far easier than getting into the human mind.
A sufficient amount of force applied to the cranium should get you there pretty quick.

Not unless the force is metaphysical, in which case it'd be the Force :lol:
 

Avin

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2004
Messages
377
Location
brasil
dunduks said:
Sammael said:
I don't think it was ever released on the PC, was it? I do not own a console and haven't owned one since Sega Master System (a LONG time ago), and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it on the PC.
It was on SNES, to play on PC all you need is good emulator (like ZSnes) and download a rom, and its smooth sailing from there.

it will probably sound dated but, if you open your mind and support some japanese sillyness is a beautiful and sometimes touching game: death, destruction, decadence... the only steampunk final fantasy.

and the music.

this game's music is sad, beautiful.
 

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