Colony Ship: First System Update

[Spectacle]

Did Colony Ship really need Space Magic (aka "psi")?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Did Colony Ship really need Space Magic (aka "psi")?

It doesn't so only a couple of mutated creatures can use it, but not humans.

 

[Johnny Biggums]

Jedi Master Radek
It's either that or we go out of business, so take your pick.

Fine, but be aware that two, perhaps even three codex trolls are NOT pleased.

 

[Elhoim]

At first you think that, but in few years time/ few next games you may start to worry about people who bought the game, really like it as it is, but struggle a lot with the finding the right way so you add optional quest markers. And the next game down the line you turn quest markers on by default because it's too much to demand from casuals to find options for them. Decline comes not through a big jump, but also through a thousand small steps.

We are doing this game for us, and I hate that shit. I won't make a game I won't play. One thing is a modifier like we did in Dungeon Rats already, and another designing a game around new and low skilled players (mandatory tutorial dungeons, etc), which we are not interested in doing.

 

[0wca]

I don't know if difficulty modes are a good idea. Tweaking a few numbers won't make the game necessary fun for casuals and they will still complain about design decisions that are too demanding for them like a lack of quest markers/compasses.

Easy mode isn't a problem at all. It would only be one if it is the baseline for all other difficulties. Normal should be the baseline and all the other difficulties should be relative to it. That way "easy" really means easy and "hard" really means hard.

At first you think that, but in few years time/ few next games you may start to worry about people who bought the game, really like it as it is, but struggle a lot with the finding the right way so you add optional quest markers. And the next game down the line you turn quest markers on by default because it's too much to demand from casuals to find options for them. Decline comes not through a big jump, but also through a thousand small steps.

Default options are also not an issue as long as they remain OPTIONAL. They can default whatever they want as long as we can change it in the options screen. Once that disappears, we have a problem.

 

[Ihavenoidea]

Glad to see old/damaged armors, cheap way to make more equipment
If the fix woudn't be big - maybe some armour traders could fix those? Works via dialogue - give old armor + money, receive new armor, get back a bit of crafting + decisions if you need to sell this armor or keep it for a later fix.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Default options are also not an issue as long as they remain OPTIONAL. They can default whatever they want as long as we can change it in the options screen. Once that disappears, we have a problem.

This isn't that simple. Most people don't fiddle with options, so in time even those playing those kinds of games will get used to quest markers and then no devs will be designing games in mind with those playing with quest markers off. The option to even turn them off may silently disappear. Handholding will become so ubiquitous that you just won't be able to imagine a game without it.

 

[Elhoim]

Easy mode isn't a problem at all. It would only be one if it is the baseline for all other difficulties. Normal should be the baseline and all the other difficulties should be relative to it. That way "easy" really means easy and "hard" really means hard.

Exactly. The game is built and designed around normal and for a veteran gamer. I mostly see the easy mode as "training wheels" for people to move up to normal, and not as the default the game is built around.

This isn't that simple. Most people don't fiddle with options, so in time even those playing those kinds of games will get used to quest markers and then no devs will be designing games in mind with those playing with quest markers off. The option to even turn them off may silently disappear. Handholding will become so ubiquitous that you just won't be able to imagine a game without it.

That I definitely agree with. Game design currently is holding the player by the nose and taking them to "interesting" stuff by quest markers and points of interest. So at one point you just stop looking at your surroundings and only focus your attention on the shining arrow.

 

[thesecret1]

I mostly see the easy mode as "training wheels"

Call it "Baby Mode"

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Exactly. The game is built and designed around normal and for a veteran gamer. I mostly see the easy mode as "training wheels" for people to move up to normal, and not as the default the game is built around.

But you must know for sure that it is not how most players will look at it, right? They will see an easy mode as an equally valid way to play the game, it won't matter how much you will try to explain to them that those are just "training wheels". You can call it the "training wheels mode" and people will still think it's just a fancy name for an easy mode. Then people who play easy mode will start demanding new concessions and one day you wake up to the fact that little by little the game is made of concessions to casuals.

 

[Elhoim]

But you must know for sure that it is not how most players will look at it, right? They will see an easy mode as an equally valid way to play the game, it won't matter how much you will try to explain to them that those are just "training wheels". You can call it the "training wheels mode" and people will still think it's just a fancy name for an easy mode. Then people who play easy mode will start demanding new concessions and one day you wake up to the fact that little by little the game is made of concessions to casuals.

The decline is inevitable and we are powerless before it.

 

[jackofshadows]

Colony Ship has fast-travel. You can't get more casual than that.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I like Underrail's idea of having certain things that only happen on the higher difficulties.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Then people who play easy mode will start demanding new concessions and one day you wake up to the fact that little by little the game is made of concessions to casuals.

We didn't do it because people demanded it. We did it because a growing number of players struggled with combat. So we have two options: tell them 'tough luck, buddy, but thanks for 25 bucks' or give them an easy mode that would help them enjoy the game they paid for in good faith. In other words, we aren't trying to attract more people, we're trying to help the existing 'customers' that can't play the game at all.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Then people who play easy mode will start demanding new concessions and one day you wake up to the fact that little by little the game is made of concessions to casuals.

We didn't do it because people demanded it. We did it because a growing number of players struggled with combat. So we have two options: tell them 'tough luck, buddy, but thanks for 25 bucks' or give them an easy mode that would help them enjoy the game they paid for in good faith. In other words, we aren't trying to attract more people, we're trying to help the existing 'customers' that can't play the game at all.

I 100% understand that, but this argument can be used for any kind of dumbing down. And the more you casualize something, the more casuals will come requiring more of dumbing down.

 

[Pearass]

I think it's fine to have a difficulty option here. I beat the original combat demo, and it was pretty challenging. I'm pretty used to CRPGs too, so I imagine newcomers were really going to get themselves in trouble. While some games (i.e. Dark Souls) would be dramatically worsened by the inclusion of a difficulty slider, I don't think it matters as much for a game like Colony Ship. I can't imagine that the difficulty or trial and error playstyle is so integral to the experience intended that its inclusion would ruin the vibe (assuming the difficulty is balanced around a reasonable "normal", as they've already confirmed above).

Pragmatically, it's a very small concesion to make in my opinion.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I 100% understand that, but this argument can be used for any kind of dumbing down. And the more you casualize something, the more casuals will come requiring more of dumbing down.

It really can't be. The lack of quest markers won't block your progress the way hard combat would. If you browse through the negative reviews, 95% are about the difficulty, only one or two say they didn't know where to go and what to do.

 

[Daedalos]

Making your game more accessible to a larger audience of players is ALWAYS gonna be the right decision, aslong as it doesnt compromise the integrity of the intended difficulty or just a challenging game.

Which is why optional stuff is mostly always the correct answer, if these optional featrues can be built into the game for a relatively small amount of ressources/money.

It's just a dumb business decision to purposely exclude a potential large buyer base, if what I just said above can be achieved without breaking the bank and the dev scheduele. This should in theory be possible for most even smaller indie game devs..

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I have to question if merely making combat easier is actually addressing their problem with combat, however. Is that what they actually want?
This is the first review presented to me on Steam:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Maxyall/recommended/648410/

I wish there's a middle ground between yes and no,

I am a big fan of XCOM, Wasteland, and Shadowrun games, I thought I am the intended demographic of this game. I was wrong.
This is not a game you can play any way you want. Your character stat needs to be well crafted and calculated. It's the game that you may need to look up builds online and restart multiple times to get things right, or the gap of power between you and a common thugs would be too high to even stand a chance. It is something that I neither willing nor have enough willpower to do. I've played enough rogue-likes and souls-borne to be familiar with trying over and over to overcome an obstacle gameplay-loop, but this aint it for me, chief... I'd like to expand on this a bit:

The world building and dialogue is great. It is worth experiencing. As someone who likes the setting of dark sci-fi and gritty spaceship, like stasis and pendulum, I fell in love with this colony ship very quickly. The problem with this is repeated exposure to the starting area over and over due to having to tune my build dilute the well crafted setting for me. The novelties of the design washes off by obstacles so hard to overcome without having to pay the price of being who I wanted to be. A streisand effect of a role playing game that ceased to be an RPG by not letting the player play the role they want. (the experience differs from player to player of course, but this is mine.)
This is not a mistake by developer, It is an intended feature. Clearly this is one of those hardcore RPG. Clearly it is not meant for me.

Despite all that I have nothing but respect for the art department. Frankly the beautifully crafted environment is what made me buy the game in the first place. I will not be refunding this, consider it a donation to the art-piece, And when I one day return to the game again, I will cheat the ♥♥♥♥ out of it so that I could enjoy this somber universe with decent momentum, with a save editor or whatever.
You can call me filthy casual, I don't mind.

Is he actually asking for easier combat here?

This is not a game you can play any way you want. Your character stat needs to be well crafted and calculated. It's the game that you may need to look up builds online and restart multiple times to get things right, or the gap of power between you and a common thugs would be too high to even stand a chance. It is something that I neither willing nor have enough willpower to do.

What I interpreted from reading this is that it's too easy to make a character that simply can't progress through the game. Being able to make a subpar character is, of course, something that should be entirely possible in an RPG. But if the character simply can't continue to progress throughout the story, then perhaps there's an issue with the character creation & advancement mechanics rather than the combat.

I share his sympathies here, I too dislike games that expect me to look up a build online.

The second negative review presented to me(there's only two on the page):
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198031351191/recommended/648410/

I have played a lot of isometric RPGs, I understand the enjoyment of building a min-max, as well as a more immersive RPG experience of building around a certain type of character.

As others have said, and with which I agree, it is really peculiar how optimized the player must be for the game progression to have even moderate success states. I thought some of the reviews may be sarcasm and made a character I thought would be fun.. and I could not progress far enough to unlock the third party member. I restarted and went with a self created min max build that so far has seemed to work out better with my knowledge of the first 30 minutes of the game, but wasn't really the style I prefer for RPGs.

I typically don't like following guides for games except for follow up playthroughs, but it just felt odd time and time again failing an encounter because I "didn't do the correct sequence of skill xp acquisition". After an hour of this in my second playthrough (which I made many more manual saves), I took to the guide section to see what was going on with this game. I have definitely played games where there are obvious moments of "come back when you are stronger" but from what I see on some of these guides, pausing a proximal quest mid conversation to go elsewhere to get the last 20 xp points so you can succeed a single check so that way you can have enough xp to skill up to finish quest x,y,z etc seems kind of ridiculous.

Im willing to guess perhaps some things are meant to be left for a different character archetype for another playthrough, but the combat in the game is so harsh that leaving even the most basic consumable item behind feels painful. That emotional response may have been immersive if I didnt have to savescum every single conversation, combat, and door opening.

I do like a lot in this game, vibe, animations, story, it is a really good setting. But I can't decide if its better or worse than Underrail, in Underrail it isnt till mid-game you find out you didn't minmax your build enough, at least in Colony Ship it slaps you in the face in the first 20 minutes.

This has essentially the same issue as the first review, with one little additional (but very important!) detail:

As others have said, and with which I agree, it is really peculiar how optimized the player must be for the game progression to have even moderate success states. I thought some of the reviews may be sarcasm and made a character I thought would be fun.. and I could not progress far enough to unlock the third party member. I

Could it be that being able to unlock more party members earlier might help alleviate the issues they have?

I'm not questioning your inclusion of an easy mode, but whether it's actually solving the issues these two reviews brought up. I don't see them complaining that the combat is simply too difficult, but that they feel stonewalled to the point that combat feels too lopsided.

And I realize you guys are probably pretty far along with development already for considering these kinds of changes, so, maybe food for thought in future titles.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I 100% understand that, but this argument can be used for any kind of dumbing down. And the more you casualize something, the more casuals will come requiring more of dumbing down.

It really can't be. The lack of quest markers won't block your progress the way hard combat would. If you browse through the negative reviews, 95% are about the difficulty, only one or two say they didn't know where to go and what to do.

And this won't change in Colony Ship RPG. But I am sure that the next game or the game after that you will get a flood of people who are upset that there are no quest markers or there is too much stats or something else.

 

[0wca]

Default options are also not an issue as long as they remain OPTIONAL. They can default whatever they want as long as we can change it in the options screen. Once that disappears, we have a problem.

This isn't that simple. Most people don't fiddle with options, so in time even those playing those kinds of games will get used to quest markers and then no devs will be designing games in mind with those playing with quest markers off. The option to even turn them off may silently disappear. Handholding will become so ubiquitous that you just won't be able to imagine a game without it.

Then the company shouldn't cater to retards? Problem solved.

 

[Jaedar]

Then people who play easy mode will start demanding new concessions and one day you wake up to the fact that little by little the game is made of concessions to casuals.

We didn't do it because people demanded it. We did it because a growing number of players struggled with combat. So we have two options: tell them 'tough luck, buddy, but thanks for 25 bucks' or give them an easy mode that would help them enjoy the game they paid for in good faith. In other words, we aren't trying to attract more people, we're trying to help the existing 'customers' that can't play the game at all.

You added an easy mode in Dungeon Rats, and iirc at the time you said it was to widen the appeal but also that it didn't really work because people have an aversion to picking easy. Assuming I'm remembering correctly, what changed?

Personally I'm not really worried about this being some slippery slope. AoD also had an easy mode (in the form of the AWESUM character), and it didn't bring decline to DR or CS.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I 100% understand that, but this argument can be used for any kind of dumbing down. And the more you casualize something, the more casuals will come requiring more of dumbing down.

It really can't be. The lack of quest markers won't block your progress the way hard combat would. If you browse through the negative reviews, 95% are about the difficulty, only one or two say they didn't know where to go and what to do.

And this won't change in Colony Ship RPG. But I am sure that the next game or the game after that you will get a flood of people who are upset that there are no quest markers or there is too much stats or something else.

Being upset about something is one thing, being unable to play (which unfortunately isn't exaggeration) is another.

I have to question if merely making combat easier is actually addressing their problem with combat, however. Is that what they actually want?

It is. They say it in different ways but combat difficulty is what it comes down to, always.

This is not a game you can play any way you want. Your character stat needs to be well crafted and calculated. It's the game that you may need to look up builds online and restart multiple times to get things right, or the gap of power between you and a common thugs would be too high to even stand a chance. It is something that I neither willing nor have enough willpower to do.

What I interpreted from reading this is that it's too easy to make a character that simply can't progress through the game. Being able to make a subpar character is, of course, something that should be entirely possible in an RPG. But if the character simply can't continue to progress throughout the story, then perhaps there's an issue with the character creation & advancement mechanics rather than the combat.

Here's what it really means:

"I made a jack of all trades but couldn't fight, talk, or sneak, so I couldn't play the way I really wanted. The end."

I've seen hundreds of characters screens and 9 out of 10 it's the same old story: an unplayable hybrid. The worst I've seen was a character from AoD that had 2 in every skill.

So yes, it is very easy to make an unplayable character in any skill-based system, usually treating the combat skills as an afterthought because it's so easy in most games it's hardly worth focusing on, at least not early in the game. Removing this option to make sure that you can't screw up your build no matter how hard you try is a far worse sin than adding quest markers. At least you can ignore those.

As others have said, and with which I agree, it is really peculiar how optimized the player must be for the game progression to have even moderate success states. I thought some of the reviews may be sarcasm and made a character I thought would be fun.. and I could not progress far enough to unlock the third party member. I

Could it be that being able to unlock more party members earlier might help alleviate the issues they have?

If you can't win the fights with the first two party members, the third one wouldn't make any fucking difference.

I'm not questioning your inclusion of an easy mode, but whether it's actually solving the issues these two reviews brought up. I don't see them complaining that the combat is simply too difficult, but that they feel stonewalled to the point that combat feels too lopsided.

This is the most confusing and impossible game I have ever played. You are given a story line to progress through, and the enemies you have to fight in the first few story driven battles practically wipe a character out in one turn. What in the crap are you people thinking.
...
I feel the combat system is erratic. Cover, movement, and weapon stats are so completely unworkable that most fights are repeated over and over to achieve a positive result. It is a combat grind. Save, fight, save fight, until you win. I do not find that enjoyable.
...
For some reason game designers think new games have to be frustrating piles of crap to be a challenge. always out numbered and out gunned is the motto of this game. the story seems great what you get to see....but combat is the crappest I have ever seen.
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The jerks who made this game confused "challenging gameplay" with stupidly hard and half broken. What a waste of money
...
And now the grind starts. If you take a shot it almost always miss the target. Not the case with the thugs. It does not matter where you position your characters, the thugs will come right up to you and kill you. Why? Because your shots miss the majority of the time and does not inflict the same damage as the enemy. That’s to say if you get a hit.

The AP cost is absolutely insane. And if you pass the first fight then you have to go to the armoury. O boy … you’re screwed. I just leave it at that. It really gets worse. I have tried the available characters; I’ve tried various custom characters with different attributes and skills. No difference in the outcome.

Maybe the game gets easier as you build your character. But I wouldn’t know since just don’t get past the armoury level.

It’s annoyingly frustrating and not enjoyable at all. Life is too short to waste like this. And I have better games to play that I can adjust the difficulty to suit my play style. Why developers just assume everyone is on the same skill level when it comes to a game is beyond all logic.
...
have played for a while and you either go full on combat just to be able to hit or dont do combat at all. as will be highly unlikely you will win any combat . think xcom but with next to no chance to win. good luck
...
but now due to the difficulty of the remaining missions, I'm stuck. I have a handful of different fights I can attempt, but I get absolutely wrecked in all of them. None of the battles are even close, which leads me to believe that I'm missing something...
...
Combat is very difficult in a number crunchy kind of way and not terribly satisfying. Prepare to watch your elite team of well armed mercenaries get devoured by a couple of poodle sized frogs.

^ love that 'elite team of well-armed mercs' comment referring to some ragtag nobodies with pipe guns (the review was posted when only the first 3 areas were available)

 

[agris]

I don't know if difficulty modes are a good idea. Tweaking a few numbers won't make the game necessary fun for casuals and they will still complain about design decisions that are too demanding for them like a lack of quest markers/compasses.

The quest marker crowd is not in our radar. This is for people who bought the game, really like it as it is, but struggle a lot with the combat. Plus the game doesn't have voiceovers and romances, so we are safe from most casuals.

At first you think that, but in few years time/ few next games you may start to worry about people who bought the game, really like it as it is, but struggle a lot with the finding the right way so you add optional quest markers. And the next game down the line you turn quest markers on by default because it's too much to demand from casuals to find options for them. Decline comes not through a big jump, but also through a thousand small steps.

I completely agree with your premise, and history shows it to be broadly true - but such results are not written in stone. Having principles, a clear vision and (critically) a spine can prevent the outcome you describe.

To say it another way, a studio guided by a steady hand can avoid the scenario you described. I trust Vince’s leadership.

 

[gerey]

but also that it didn't really work because people have an aversion to picking easy

Very easy way to fix this, just rename "easy difficulty" to "game journalist mode" and put in above hard so the retards feeld validated, sit back and rake in all the 10/10 on Metascore.

You're welcome.

VD, I expect a paycheck in my bank account by Monday.