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Game News Colony Ship RPG Update #1: Setting, Character System

DSW

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Nov 13, 2006
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Your language seems to suggest that we're looking at some Carribean style 'lynch the captain and crack open the rum' mutiny, but I don't get the 'mutiny on the Alcatraz' feeling from anything in this thread except your post. Maybe if VD said the 'retrofitted cargo ship' is truly a piece of shit that barely holds itself together?

I don't know what "It kind of to introduce colony ship design with lack of oxygen" means, but the update clearly doesn't paint a "we are like slaves on a galley FREEDUM" narrative, that's all you. Nobody's going 1789 on the ship from what I can see. But any kind of multi-generation space mission is going to have highly motivated and disciplined folk launching off, and then the community developing many tensions and conflicts as years go by... like every human community there's ever been. There might be booze and entertainment, but it takes more than that to make any society become violence/conflict-proof. Are you saying there's no way people will fight if they're all stuck on the same ship?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly inclined to defend the mutiny / Christians stuff. To me it could be Christians or it could be communists, it all depends on the execution. I just don't see very compelling reasons to write it off as completely unlikely or stupid.
Would you design Generation Ship with inevitable run out of oxygen in future? For example, you take on board air cleaning equipment, which will stop functioning after 100 years. And no replacement or repair kit. People will start dying. Inevitable tragedy. Does it good design for colony ship game?

It is the same thing, taking on board totalitarian traditionalism or any other kind of quite extensive repressive measures to keep flock in right mood. Tragedy is insured. But why you design colony ship with insured tragedy on board?

It is not unlikely or stupid. Repressed flock mutiny is not properly designed Colony ship. It would be better if mutiny starts with some sci-fi vibe reasons, which lead to lack of resources. It is not enough that people could have local or family drama fighting. If they are well fed then they will not start full scale mutiny with firearms and factions, degrading their lifestyle for nothing. Just look at modern western world and you'll get understanding that it is easiest to control conflict-proof flock.
 
Weasel
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Would you design Generation Ship with inevitable run out of oxygen in future? For example, you take on board air cleaning equipment, which will stop functioning after 100 years. And no replacement or repair kit. People will start dying. Inevitable tragedy. Does it good design for colony ship game?

It is the same thing, taking on board totalitarian traditionalism or any other kind of quite extensive repressive measures to keep flock in right mood. Tragedy is insured. But why you design colony ship with insured tragedy on board?

It is not unlikely or stupid. Repressed flock mutiny is not properly designed Colony ship. It would be better if mutiny starts with some sci-fi vibe reasons, which lead to lack of resources. It is not enough that people could have local or family drama fighting. If they are well fed then they will not start full scale mutiny with firearms and factions, degrading their lifestyle for nothing. Just look at modern western world and you'll get understanding that it is easiest to control conflict-proof flock.

I'm not quite sure what your argument is here. Are you saying that design errors or oversights are not realistic, even on something that is meant to last for centuries? So you want a perfectly designed ship with enough "repair kits" for every eventuality, and enough technical expertise passed down through the generations? And that, as the generations go by, there would be no societal changes that could lead to conflict, instead it would be better to have "aliens" or "sci-fi vibe reasons" to trigger conflict?
 

DSW

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Would you design Generation Ship with inevitable run out of oxygen in future? For example, you take on board air cleaning equipment, which will stop functioning after 100 years. And no replacement or repair kit. People will start dying. Inevitable tragedy. Does it good design for colony ship game?

It is the same thing, taking on board totalitarian traditionalism or any other kind of quite extensive repressive measures to keep flock in right mood. Tragedy is insured. But why you design colony ship with insured tragedy on board?

It is not unlikely or stupid. Repressed flock mutiny is not properly designed Colony ship. It would be better if mutiny starts with some sci-fi vibe reasons, which lead to lack of resources. It is not enough that people could have local or family drama fighting. If they are well fed then they will not start full scale mutiny with firearms and factions, degrading their lifestyle for nothing. Just look at modern western world and you'll get understanding that it is easiest to control conflict-proof flock.

I'm not quite sure what your argument is here. Are you saying that design errors or oversights are not realistic, even on something that is meant to last for centuries? So you want a perfectly designed ship with enough "repair kits" for every eventuality, and enough technical expertise passed down through the generations? And that, as the generations go by, there would be no societal changes that could lead to conflict, instead it would be better to have "aliens" or "sci-fi vibe reasons" to trigger conflict?
Not perfect, but with visible intention to. Like modern liberal democracy is not perfect but with visible intentions and results providing people with kind of humanistic governance, conflict-proof society. What sudden Colony ship should be degraded to totalitarian traditionalism, which definitely ensures conflict?

Societal changes are consequences of technological or resources changes, not of apathy or free will of members. I am not sure that VD has enough resources to outsmart such changes and consequences. I see that he degrading societal changes to banal mutiny with prison made firearms on cargo ship.

And without aliens and sci-fi it would be prison ferry game.
 
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Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And without aliens and sci-fi it would be prison ferry game.
images
, so :d1p:

But Catholic stuff makes me want to :keepmyjewgold:, sounds boring. Why not Chrislamist as in Hammer of God or something wild and looney? It really would not have to be any real organisation, the whole setting is unrealistic an sich.
 

Vault Dweller

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But any kind of multi-generation space mission is going to have highly motivated and disciplined folk launching off, and then the community developing many tensions and conflicts as years go by... like every human community there's ever been.
Precisely.

It is the same thing, taking on board totalitarian traditionalism or any other kind of quite extensive repressive measures to keep flock in right mood. Tragedy is insured. But why you design colony ship with insured tragedy on board?
You question totalitarianism, which is probably the only way to keep generations in check (see North Korea), while acknowledging the European refugee crisis (i.e. why design Europe with insured tragedy on board?).

It is not unlikely or stupid. Repressed flock mutiny is not properly designed Colony ship. It would be better if mutiny starts with some sci-fi vibe reasons, which lead to lack of resources. It is not enough that people could have local or family drama fighting. If they are well fed then they will not start full scale mutiny with firearms and factions, degrading their lifestyle for nothing. Just look at modern western world and you'll get understanding that it is easiest to control conflict-proof flock.
Give it time. These things don't happen overnight.
 
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Shadenuat

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Catholic Church has no reason to build a colony chip. Colony ship could be inspired by church, built by church, but with crowdfunded money.
Kickstarted generation ship. With backers getting rewards as better places to live on it ("Donate 200.000$, get a place with your own bathroom and illuminator to look on stars"), and numerous organizations including Church(es) pledging and sending their missionaries to live in rich cabins for pledgers money. Of course crowdfunding is just selling dreams so the best they got was old shitty cargo ship and only idiots/fanatics decided to get what they pledged for :troll:

This is so crazy that to me seems actually probable by year 3000 or whatever :shittydog:

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-a-space-telescope-for-everyone-0/description
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...utionary-solar-sailing-spacecraft/description

Oh and AI of the ship would use Unity :troll:

Ken Levine don't you dare steal this for your shitty next gen shooters :argh:
 
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DSW

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It is the same thing, taking on board totalitarian traditionalism or any other kind of quite extensive repressive measures to keep flock in right mood. Tragedy is insured. But why you design colony ship with insured tragedy on board?
You question totalitarianism, which is probably the only way to keep generations in check (see North Korea), while acknowledging the European refugee crisis (i.e. why design Europe with insured tragedy on board?).

Neither Korea, nor Europe are closed world. Korea gets food aid, Europe get refugee problem from outer worlds. But if you want to say that Korean regime is more stable and conflict-proof in terms of mutiny rather than Europe then I will give up for a moment.

At the moment I see that prison-like authorities on prison-like facility would be overthrown with a prison-like mutiny. Prison-like gang with prison-like made firearms would establish prison-like regime but without any overseers . Colony ship, you say... The difference would be in gang faction names and flavor stories about factions? I want to be sure that the rest prison-like attitude, including possibility of total genocide of rival gangs Colony ship factions, remains the same.
 

Archibald

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Dunno if this stuff was asked already so EXCUSE ME if I'm repeating something:

1. How big this ship is? I imagine that it needs rather big population so that after X generations it wouldn't result in brothers and sisters fucking each other in order to procreate.
2. Is there some social order on who mates with who? Like farmers with farmers and so on?
3. How characters will look visually? There are many theories that we would develop differently if we spent our entire lives in space, are you thinking about doing something similar or its just gonna be ordinary humans and thats it.
4. Lots of people seam focused on the Christianity bit, but after reading initial post I got the impression that this stuff doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things and it could have been any religion/ideology, its just that you find Christianity more "logical" in this case? Basically where I'm going with this is that maybe you shouldn't add too much details to this thing (or make some mishmash of religions, besides centuries in isolated community are likely to result in different "version" of Christianity that many of us think about) since its bound to attract retards with retarded opinions. Or is there something specific in the plot that relates to Christianity and wouldn't work with other religions?
 

Vault Dweller

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1. How big this ship is? I imagine that it needs rather big population so that after X generations it wouldn't result in brothers and sisters fucking each other in order to procreate.
Yes. Fifty thousand colonists on launch. Considerably less 'now'.

2. Is there some social order on who mates with who? Like farmers with farmers and so on?
There was (see the update) but not anymore.

3. How characters will look visually? There are many theories that we would develop differently if we spent our entire lives in space, are you thinking about doing something similar or its just gonna be ordinary humans and thats it.
Ordinary humans (and mutants) to keep things simple.

4. Lots of people seam focused on the Christianity bit, but after reading initial post I got the impression that this stuff doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things and it could have been any religion/ideology, its just that you find Christianity more "logical" in this case?
Exactly. It's not a ship full of religious zealots. Neither when it was launched nor now, but there is a religious faction (as there are people who turn to faith) and it's loosely based on Christianity.

Basically where I'm going with this is that maybe you shouldn't add too much details to this thing (or make some mishmash of religions, besides centuries in isolated community are likely to result in different "version" of Christianity that many of us think about) since its bound to attract retards with retarded opinions.
No arguing here.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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Will the game be sandbox? If the answer is yes, how do you plan to keep the game challenging?
 

Tigranes

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DSW You just seem to be letting specific words or ideas trigger your imagination. E.g. totalitarian traditionalism was one of the vying options after the mutiny. It makes a lot of sense that the first generation will be zealots, which isn't the same thing as a super repressive society, and in any case, yes, it does make sense to have tight controls and hierarchy when you know anything fucking up on the ship means no escape. Like, you're not saying anything nonsensical in and of themselves, but you seem to be responding to things that don't exist in the update.

Vault Dweller what's the basic plan on aesthetics? Not a huge fan of endless corridors and grey rooms, and no matter how people try the visuals often end up being dreary and monotonous.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Text adventures most likely.
I see. Makes sense for zero gravity but would be cool if low gravity could be implemented as a combat modifier somehow.
That's too specific to be discussed at this point. In general though, it all comes to the number of unique animations. We had over 500 for AoD and we don't want to go over.

Will the game be sandbox? If the answer is yes, how do you plan to keep the game challenging?
a) Not sure I understand the question; the game is either challenging or it's not; either you can go anywhere and kill anything whenever you feel like or not (you know that the former wasn't the case in AoD)
b) What's your definition of sandbox? Mine is 'forget about the main quest and just go exploring and killing things', so this game isn't a sandbox a-la Witcher 3 or Morrowind.

Vault Dweller what's the basic plan on aesthetics? Not a huge fan of endless corridors and grey rooms, and no matter how people try the visuals often end up being dreary and monotonous.
Not a fan of corridors and grey rooms either. The ship is huge and space isn't an issue. So far we're planning to have 16 thematically-diverse (and hopefully visually interesting) locations. We'll post concept art when we start introducing locations.
 

Kos_Koa

Iron Tower Studio
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Feb 12, 2006
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Vault Dweller what's the basic plan on aesthetics? Not a huge fan of endless corridors and grey rooms, and no matter how people try the visuals often end up being dreary and monotonous.

If you don't mind me chiming in, like VD said the ship will have thematically diverse locations, as well as being large enough to cover a wide spectrum of 'hopefully' interesting locals. Making "endless corridors of grey rooms" would feel like a wasted opportunity for such a compelling setting.

Due to the inhabitants living in an environment meant to be actively maintained to encourage proper habitability, any imbalances to the functioning systems of the ship can have drastic effects on the environment. As you can imagine, that could mean anything between an almost wasteland-like environment (where the heating elements, plus a faulty life support system, can create an almost brightly lit and soupy red atmosphere, with metal equipment becoming something akin to molten statues, and walls becoming bare skeletons with liquefied and hardened metal dripping down their frames), to a swamp like environment (where the life-support system is spewing out damp and humid air, creating a misty green abyss with fungus and moss thriving between old engines and machinery that have long since been overrun, and knee high water that makes whatever is lurking beneath your party's feet nearly impossible to detect). These are just some ideas for the less hospitable parts of the ship.

Regarding the more hospitable parts of the ship, I imagine they are decorated and maintained by hundreds of years of developing cultures, with their fashion, architecture, and beliefs dictating how they shape their tiny little world. Some factions are shaped by the older ways of living, relying more on fashion similar to the time prior to the mutiny, while other factions are shaped by the post-mutiny world, and embrace a life that (to those they left behind when they first launched the ship) would look like something akin to a freak show.

Hopefully in time we can share some more detailed concepts and ideas with the community.
 

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Can't go wrong with a freak show, that's for sure.

Which of course brings into mind:
The ship of fools is an allegory, originating from Plato,[1] that has long been a fixture in Western literature and art. The allegory or parable depicts a vessel without a pilot, taken over by force or persuasion by those who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, and seemingly ignorant of their course. This mob is willing to kill anyone in the way, and to drug the captain if necessary. The true pilot, that knows the stars, the wind, and how to stay on course, is considered useless by the mob. The allegory is compared to how a philosopher is rejected by the state.

(Also, somehow reflects the discussion between the developer and the angry mob gamers.)

Which makes me wonder (and I tried to check the thread for any discussion), might this book be among things inspirational for the backstory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Fools_(Russo_novel)

The Argonos is a space-faring generation ship containing thousands of humans. The Argonos has presumably been traveling through space for centuries upon centuries. The original goal of the Argonos has been lost over time; no one on board can say for certain of their origins. A class-system has developed in which the commoners and poor serve in the lower levels and provide maintenance for the ship. By contrast, the upper-class maintain positions of power. A Bishop sits as the head of the Church which wields some influence over the people, and the Bishop himself is a member of the Executive Council which governs the Argonos. When a signal is received, a team aboard the Argonos prepare to make a landing on the first alien planet which has been encountered in years.
 

DSW

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DSW You just seem to be letting specific words or ideas trigger your imagination. E.g. totalitarian traditionalism was one of the vying options after the mutiny. It makes a lot of sense that the first generation will be zealots, which isn't the same thing as a super repressive society, and in any case, yes, it does make sense to have tight controls and hierarchy when you know anything fucking up on the ship means no escape. Like, you're not saying anything nonsensical in and of themselves, but you seem to be responding to things that don't exist in the update.
So the first generations would be ready to sacrifice everything for the dream. Their zeal would cement the totalitarianism and the loss of freedom that comes with it. For the greater good!
- This is a thing, which do exist in update. It is not viable option from the beginning. It is not correspond to the concept of the game and how psychologists would tune colonist to perceive their goal. People on board are already colonists, which already has a colony on the ship. They are not adventures, which goal to reach the Final Frontier. You should not design a Colony Ship game with adventure game cliche in mind. Colonists have nothing to sacrifice. Their dream comes true as they stepped on the board. Their good is to be a colonists on Colony ship. This approach should be used as a premise of colony ship social order design. You should not stretch human life frame to the size of hundreds or thousands years. It is obvious error and already explored in "Space colonist psychology for dummies".

All firearms are ship-made; most are crude, angular weapons. It’s a 'rediscovered' tech (we all know what flintlock weapons are but we don’t make them, so if we have to start making them again, we’ll have to rediscover the tech we’re vaguely familiar with).
- This is another thing from update. Please google a "prison made fire arms", "3d printed m1911" and then take a look on CGS Pistol Designs from update. Do you see that "rediscovered tech" has no difference with prison masters tech? Could you assume that 3d printers would not be available on Colony ship?

One more thing from update:
We can consider ammo variations within each class but it’s not necessary as 3 different types are more than enough.
- This means that Colony ship has production of three types of ammo. Do you expect that Colony ship ammo would have attributes of custom made ammo like misfire, stuck in barrel, burst in hand or other malfunctions? So, Colony ship and Earth prison, both have custom made quality firearms with industrial quality ammo. The difference is that Colony ship does not have outer supply of industrial quality ammo like prisons have. I suppose you understand that prisoners make firearms fitted to industrial ammo, not custom made ammo. Otherwise prisoners will switch to crossbows or whatever else less sophisticated and dangerous. Custom ammo making is more sophisticated metal and chemical technology than firearms. But this will be reflected in the game the other way around.

True colony ship game should have better design than introduced. It has to use potential of future technologies. Mutiny has to start because of resource fighting, which was caused by unpredictable thing, may be by some kind of technological overlook or space exploration related disaster. Firearms tier lines have to start with respect to level of imaginable future technologies, and m1911 should be custom made raritet for collectors of old junk. But instead of exploring Colony ship potential we got colonial age cliche with down to modern prison degradation.

I believe that if cause of resource fighting is ended then unitarian governance of total colony is ensured. Independent and antagonistic factions as parts of total colony can exist autonomous or with outer support only. In case of Colony ship it depends of layout design, but if any faction does not have autonomous life support then this faction could not exist as antagonist to others. Conventional gangs can exist due to disguise and getting resources from united colony, which should be big enough.
So, if game needs constant factions fighting then game needs united colony with gangs or degraded colonists to the level that nobody knows how switches operate, so every faction can be sure that nobody switch of the light on their block. Both are shit designs of Colony ship.
 
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Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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Will the game be sandbox? If the answer is yes, how do you plan to keep the game challenging?
a) Not sure I understand the question; the game is either challenging or it's not; either you can go anywhere and kill anything whenever you feel like or not (you know that the former wasn't the case in AoD)
b) What's your definition of sandbox? Mine is 'forget about the main quest and just go exploring and killing things', so this game isn't a sandbox a-la Witcher 3 or Morrowind.

By sandbox, I meant a game with an open world map, where you can go anywhere and try to do a bunch of stuff, including killing things. If it’s easy to do these stuff, or if games with open worlds are usually easy, is another matter. Or maybe it isn’t. What is the point in having an open world to explore if you can’t easily adapt to each open location? F:NV had a part of the world map filled with Deathclaws that was dangerous for the player in his early levels. However, I don’t think that the game would work if the open exploration was hindered by serious challenges.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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The thing is, that "bunch of stuff" you can try to do is always limited to killing and looting. That was true in Daggerfall, Gothic/Risen, and Witcher 3. At best you can add 'solve local problems' (usually handled via killing and subsequent looting), bonus points if you can take sides in local conflicts. There's nothing wrong with this design as it's the only thing that works in sandbox games, but that's not what we're aiming at.
 

Vault Dweller

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It is not viable option from the beginning. It is not correspond to the concept of the game and how psychologists would tune colonist to perceive their goal. People on board are already colonists, which already has a colony on the ship. They are not adventures, which goal to reach the Final Frontier.
But the Frontier isn't reached yet. The colony isn't established and the flight will takes hundreds of years, which requires very strict laws defining almost every aspect of your life. The first and second generations will blindly follow the laws, the third generation will be a lot less excited about being stuck on the ship and forced to follow these laws.

Colonists have nothing to sacrifice. Their dream comes true as they stepped on the board.
Their dream does come true, but not their descendants' dream who "didn't ask for it".

This is another thing from update. Please google a "prison made fire arms", "3d printed m1911" and then take a look on CGS Pistol Designs from update. Do you see that "rediscovered tech" has no difference with prison masters tech? Could you assume that 3d printers would not be available on Colony ship?
No, they are not available. As for the firearms, they aren't prison tech, they are 'made in workshops' tech. Most of them are taken from recent wars and conflicts.

This means that Colony ship has production of three types of ammo. Do you expect that Colony ship ammo would have attributes of custom made ammo like misfire, stuck in barrel, burst in hand or other malfunctions? So, Colony ship and Earth prison, both have custom made quality firearms with industrial quality ammo.
Let's not confuse setting with combat design. In general, yes, the ammo would be prone to all kinds of failures but I don't think that frequent misfires and 'your gun explodes in your hand, better luck next time!' would make combat interesting, no matter how realistic it is.

Both are shit designs of Colony ship.
Duly noted.
 

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