Game News Colony Ship Update #31: The Interface

[Deleted Member 22431]

Yes, but more people agree with my good and superb opinion, and popular opinions can't be wrong.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

the visible skill check thresholds are a PoE-ish thing.

It's a W2 thing, which was released before PoE, sorry.

 

[Strange Fellow]

It's also a Fallout New Vegas thing, and I bet it goes back even further.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Who the FUCK decided intimidation should be based of fucking charisma in most rpgs!? Like, how!?

Couldn't agree more.

Anyway, about time. Hope we keep the bodycount stat too.

Of course.

Question: "sniping" as in a "sniper build" with a sniper rifle and dedicated perks is not in the game, correct?

Sniping as in long range shooting while undetected is not in the game, but you can play a "sniper" - use a rifle (scoped or not), fall back to keep max distance, use energy shield to make sure you won't be disturbed, aimed shots, dedicated perks and implants.

Intimidation isn't all brute force convincing someone you could kick your ass. An old, frail, mob boss making you an offer you can't refuse is far better at intimidate that the roided up street thug.

It depends. For example, in AoD you could intimidate with your bodycount (i.e. a personal threat) and with the power of your guild. We'll have the same in Colony Ship and the strength comment is applied to personal threats not faction threats.

 

[Eyestabber]

The reason I'm asking is because melee in games with guns is a very, very old pet peeve of mine and I'm totally gonna make a thread about the topic and tag you at some point, but one of the points I intend to make is "melee or sniping: pick one". Because the usability of melee relies heavily on engagement distances and gap closing tools and these mechanics run 100% counter to the usability of "snipers". Related to that last one, Styg's system of separating movement AP from action AP is an obvious (and quite clever) way to stack the deck in favor of melee builds. That somewhat address the situation in fallout where a melee PC looks at the enemies and think "well, all I have to do is waste 2 turns worth of AP in order to start dealing damage. Hope I don't get turned into a pincushion by then!".

Also, I'm aware Underrail did manage to pick both, but the game tries to mix a different range of engagement distances, to varying success. Underrail is probably the only success story I played, as in "melee isn't complete and utter garbage in this game". And that's a shallow praise at best.

 

[Tigranes]

I think it also comes down to how it's too easy for 'snipers', and there could be interesting mechanics to make life trickier for them. Some games have toyed with accuracy debuffs if you've moved that round, to simulate getting properly set up and focusing your aim. Not particularly appropriate for CS, but smokebomb-like items could also be a useful way to level the playing field.

 

[Blaine]

The hardest enemy in Underrail uses his bare fists. I think that says it all, really.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The dialogue window is generically Infinity Engine-like of course, but the visible skill check thresholds are a PoE-ish thing.

This design is much older than PoE. New Vegas had it, for example, and I don't think it was the first game that showed the thresholds.

In addition, I've previously remarked that Colony Ship's attack and armor mechanics seem to be PoE-influenced, eg:
https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10303
https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10945

The armor works the same way it worked in AoD - it reduces incoming damage by X not %. Power armor does work differently (either downgrades attacks which was one of the passive abilities in PoE or absorbs all damage until the shield is depleted). The graze thing is a logical necessity (the dodgers were getting away with murder in AoD) rather than inspiration. We realized we had to have something between hit and miss (light damage that would do nothing to armored fighters but would fuck up the dodgers very quickly) before we played PoE but didn't want to make combat even harder due to endless complaints.

I'm not afraid to say that we borrowed something from another game; we obviously borrowed quite a lot from Fallout and Torment, but - unfortunately - PoE wasn't really a source of inspiration.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The reason I'm asking is because melee in games with guns is a very, very old pet peeve of mine and I'm totally gonna make a thread about the topic and tag you at some point, but one of the points I intend to make is "melee or sniping: pick one". Because the usability of melee relies heavily on engagement distances and gap closing tools and these mechanics run 100% counter to the usability of "snipers". Related to that last one, Styg's system of separating movement AP from action AP is an obvious (and quite clever) way to stack the deck in favor of melee builds. That somewhat address the situation in fallout where a melee PC looks at the enemies and think "well, all I have to do is waste 2 turns worth of AP in order to start dealing damage. Hope I don't get turned into a pincushion by then!".

Here is how I see it:

If you have a sniper rifle, a decent distance by isometric RPG standards, meaning a screen's length, and you're facing a melee enemy, that enemy should never reach you, otherwise it's cheating. If you're facing 3 melee enemies, you have a problem. If the enemies throw a smoke grenade and you can't see shit, you have a big problem. If two enemies are charging at you and two managed to reach another party member who won't get up after a fight if he dies, so you have to prioritize and save his ass first and when you're done, the other two enemies are in your face, you have a very big problem.

 

[Blaine]

Even the premise of this game is remarkable, and has never been done before in a game as the primary setting, that I know of. The concept of colony or seed ships has been around in sci-fi for a long time, such as in Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama, where an alien seed ship is the primary setting. (A seed ship is a type of colony ship wherein people don't go about their daily business in transit, but are gestated from scratch upon arrival.)

I had a napkin idea years back about a management strategy game in which you managed a colony ship on its way to a destination; if you succeeded, you'd touch down on a planet, and the game would shift into a small city-building management game. There could be several ships and planet types to choose from and configure before you began the game. It's one of the only memorable ideas I've ever had for a game.

Since I have no coding skills nor any idea of how to actually create a management strategy game, that idea never left the napkin. Someone should feel free to steal it though, I'd like to play that game someday.

 

[deuxhero]

Intimidation isn't all brute force convincing someone you could kick your ass. An old, frail, mob boss making you an offer you can't refuse is far better at intimidate that the roided up street thug.

Honestly strength to intimidate makes even less sense in a game where guns are standard.

Even make less sense that charisma is used for intimidation. Get mugged somewhere in the street by a hulking brute and tell me that he's charismatic.

The thing is, the mugger is not intimidating. His weapon is. If he was unarmed he couldn't force anyone to do anything by words.

edit:
Oh, just noticed the revolving rifle in the inventory shot. Do you take damage if you try to use it without gloves?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The thing is, the mugger is not intimidating. His weapon is. If he was unarmed he couldn't force anyone to do anything by words.

But if he is successful he is indeed intimadating. If the thug carrying the gun is not threathing at all, e.g., if the gun is in the hands of a coward without the guts to pull the trigger, the intimidation is null.

 

[deuxhero]

So the arms are a circumstance bonus, but it's possible someone can be so unintimidating (have lots of other negatives) it doesn't work.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Intimidation isn't all brute force convincing someone you could kick your ass. An old, frail, mob boss making you an offer you can't refuse is far better at intimidate that the roided up street thug.

Honestly strength to intimidate makes even less sense in a game where guns are standard.

Even make less sense that charisma is used for intimidation. Get mugged somewhere in the street by a hulking brute and tell me that he's charismatic.

The thing is, the mugger is not intimidating. His weapon is.

Since it seems to be a philosophical debate now, I'd say it's not the weapon itself but the mugger's willingness (or even eagerness) to use it. You have to believe that the mugger will shoot you or stab you without a second thought, otherwise you can walk away.

If he was unarmed he couldn't force anyone to do anything by words.

How about those bank robbers who give the teller a note that says the robber has a gun? The teller can tell the robber to fuck off and call the guards if the robber fails his intimidation check.

 

[Life of the Party]

 

[Tigranes]

What is the nature of a mugger? Is it something about the swarthy jaws and distinct nose shape? Is it the guttural lingo? Is it the weapon?

The obvious answer is that it is not always one thing and never the other, so for the purposes of a CRPG rather than an essentialist philosophy, anything reasonably realistic that serves the gameplay is fine.

Charisma was never a big problem either. I thought with D&D or anything else the whole point is that high CHA doesn't necessarily mean a suave guy with a Backstreet Boys look, it means any variation of the ability to influence others - with sweet talk, with a 'i'm a weak maiden save me' routine, with the ability to shut anybody up with a glare, etc.

 

[Blaine]

How about those bank robbers who give the teller a note that says the robber has a gun? The teller can tell the robber to fuck off and call the guards if the robber fails his intimidation check.

These days (in the US) they'd be more likely to hand the money over, even if he looks like a dipshit. You never really know. Even in a bank with bulletproof glass enclosing the tellers, he might become irate and shoot customers, whose families would sue the bank, the FDIC, the local police, the state police, the company that provides security guards (if any), the APA, the gun manufacturer, the NRA, and possibly even Jesus Christ.

Hey, maybe your next cRPG should be set in the modern US and feature realistic litigation mechanics!

 

[Black Angel]

The thing is, the mugger is not intimidating. His weapon is. If he was unarmed he couldn't force anyone to do anything by words.

Yeah, but what if the mugger is not holding any weapon whatsoever? I specified that the mugger is a hulking brute, and even if he's only ready to use his barefists, don't you think he's intimidating enough, especially if his arms looked like it can squeeze your head like it's nothing? Again, [Strength] wouldn't be the only thing that's considered when attempting an intimidation check, but it can be. The point is that [Charisma] makes much less sense to be used in an intimidation attempt that [Strength], because your example of a mob boss intimidating you into accepting his offer isn't really a case of someone being charismatic, but rather used his reputation like [Body Count].

Also, VD elaborated that it's mugger's willingness (or eagerness) to use his weapon (or max STR-buffed barefists) to stab/bash you the moment you say no to him is what made him intimidating. Just as [Body Count] can be used in an intimidation attempt, so does [Combat Reputation] can be used in an intimidation attempt. I believe this will be the case, because the new reputation ranks specifically have one tier called 'Trigger Happy'. Now, imagine you're being approached by a Merc with a reputation of being 'Trigger Happy' whenever he doesn't get what he wants. He asked you some information, but since you know of his reputation but are also not exactly willing to give him what he wants for free, you tried to steer the conversation around so he will give you something in return. Thing is, you didn't do it subtly, and the Merc saw it right away, and so he began an intimidation attempt using his [Combat Reputation] by visibly enters combat stance. It doesn't matter if he's armed or unarmed, because if he's skilled either way, his reputation is real. Now tell, does the Merc using his [Combat Reputation] to intimidate you into giving what he wants sounds like he's being charismatic?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Since it seems to be a philosophical debate now.

Or maybe it's a psychological debate of what needs to be involved in coercion.

Also, VD elaborated that it's mugger's willingness (or eagerness) to use his weapon

Or maybe the ability to convince his target that he can pull it off. In this case, high persuasion would be sufficient to successfuly coerce somebody. This is in agreement with the Colony Ship's character system: intimidation is not a skill, but the result of other factors.

 

[Black Angel]

This is in agreement with the Colony Ship's character system: intimidation is not a skill, but the result of other factors.

Yeah, this is the case since AoD, too. There was no [Intimidation] skill, but every time you have an opportunity to choose an option that checks for your [Body Count] and/or [Combat Reputation], the lines reads like an intimidation attempt all the same.

 

[Blaine]

The Codex performing in-depth analyses of the particulars of implementing muggers and bank robbers in RPGs reminded me of this, haven't thought of it in years:

 

[Shadenuat]

You should make options like kill/end dialogue in a fight more distinct that just quotation marks closed > action. Maybe an icon or different color.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Vault Dweller should consider more text-adventures with simpler art: no coloring, simple illustrations, etc. It's better than nothing and I wnat to believe assume it wouldn't overload the artists.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Vault Dweller should consider more text-adventures with simpler art: no coloring, simple illustrations, etc. It's better than nothing and I wnat to believe assume it wouldn't overload the artists.

Art is ALWAYS a problem for small studios, no matter how simple. Especially illustrations. If we had an artist who could do PoE-style illustrations at a reasonable price, good pace, and consistent quality, we would have gladly illustrated all text adventures. Unfortunately, we don't.

 

[Blaine]

Art is ALWAYS a problem for small studios, no matter how simple. Especially illustrations. If we had an artist who could do PoE-style illustrations at a reasonable price, good pace, and consistent quality, we would have gladly illustrated all text adventures. Unfortunately, we don't.

Press F to pay respects to Jaceface

I paid him $100 to create this, and frankly I think I underpaid him. I just had no idea what was appropriate and threw out a price.

That's just one portrait.