Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

[Cryomancer]

, but I never dwelled too much on it. What makes it bad?

I can list (some) problems with cooldowns

• Generally has no lore explanation. EG - a Mg 42 machine gun overheating after firing a lot makes sense. Cooldowns in 99% of games doesn't.
• Kills all tactics of the combat and the combat becomes : Nuke 1, Nuke 2, Filler 1, Filler 2 (...), Filler N, Nuke 1(...) IE, become more about managing boring rotations
• They take out your focus from the actual game, to force you to focus on this timers.
• The combat becomes more like a quick time event than a actual resemblance of a combat

But DraQ explanation is amazing too.

Aren't technically all RTwP RPGs built around cooldowns; just usually behind the scenes so you don't see it.

Nope. Is how much action you can take in how much time.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Kills all tactics of the combat and the combat becomes : Nuke 1, Nuke 2, Filler 1, Filler 2 (...), Filler N, Nuke 1(...) IE, become more about managing boring rotations

How does this differ from not having cooldowns where you only use your best abilities and ignore everything else?
Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

The reason you don't use your most powerful abilities with a cooldown system is that you might need them. The same reason you don't immediately just use all your most powerful spells in a Vancian system. If anything, this points to an issue in said games with cooldowns being too short and/or there not being enough of a threat to make the player hesitate using their most powerful abilities without conserving them.

They take out your focus from the actual game, to force you to focus on this timers.

How is this any different from managing mana or number of Vancian casts left?

The combat becomes more like a quick time event than a actual resemblance of a combat

I don't understand how this applies to cooldowns and not every other type of alternative.

If anything, a cooldown system in a cRPG ends up being more tactical than a Vancian system because sans a handful of games they typically have unlimited resting meaning there's absolutely zero thought behind your spell usage beyond "durr use the strongest one" and rest after the fight. There's a reason mages almost always end up being OP as shit in basically every D&D-like adaptation.

 

[Cryomancer]

where you only use your best abilities and ignore everything else?

Having "best abilities" is a problem itself. We don't need to have for eg, the best spell. Pick Wail of the Banshsee on 3.5e. It is not the best spell, but is the best spell against enemies with low fortitude in greater number who aren't undead. Death to the undead is the best army of weak undead slaying spell. Spells needs to be situational.

A skill like "half swording" should be amazing vs plate mail but worthless vs unarmored enemies. Same with bows. Bodkin arrows amazing for armor and broadhead vs animals. Situational spells/skills/ammo is the solution.

How is this any different from managing mana or number of Vancian casts left?

Not timers and is not different than managing ammo in a IRL firearm.

and rest after the fight.

Make time matter and resting more than just press a button. Like pathfinder kingmaker did.

Or make like Dark Sun : Wake of the Ravager, where you can only rest in limited spots in the map and the lack of resting places is what makes underdark section pretty hard. Dark Souls 1/2 uses a very vancian like magic system and nobody spam the "strongest spell". In fact, the storngest spells like Climax and forbidden sun for DS2 comes with a great cost. Do you wanna prepare a single climax which drains all your souls or 80+ dark orbs?

 

[xuerebx]

Interesting discussion!

I can't remember an RPG I played which featured cooldowns, not in the last year anyway, which is why I asked.

I remember disliking limited spell slots and resting to recover said slots in D&D rules-based games as it made spellcasters feel too weak and constrained, forcing you to rest frequently to recover. My opinion changed after KOTC1, but only because of the well thought out way the game was designed. Can't think of many games like that.

Aren't technically all RTwP RPGs built around cooldowns; just usually behind the scenes so you don't see it.

I haven't played a RTwP game in a few years (no longer my cup of tea, but I'm not excluding them entirely), which is why I couldn't think of a game which utilises cooldowns. However Sorcerer Victor just mentioned Underrail, a game I very much enjoyed from start to nearly finish and it had turn-based cooldowns. I didn't feel it took away from the complexity of the combat tactics because it was tied in to "mana" cost and most of the battles ended before the timer restarted (by mid game) anyway.

In RTwP I can see how it can become a quasi-QTE.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

Underrail combat is good because of cooldowns or good despite the cooldowns?

Let's discuss that: I don't care about MMO, Larian games and other shit, here's the truly good combat in a RPG with actual cooldowns.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

Sure, its combat isn't bad, it's just mediocre.
There is only one playable character, meaning the tactical layer is extremely weak.
Players think they're it's good because they're facing very dangerous enemies and they can beat them with an autism level of cautiousness and by using the overpowered skills and weapons at their disposal.
The fact is, it's just a rogue-like/diablo-like with more RPG elements and slightly better quests.

 

[Alex]

Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

Sure, its combat isn't bad, it's just mediocre.
There is only one playable character, meaning the tactical layer is extremely weak.
Players think they're it's good because they're facing very dangerous enemies and they can beat them with an autism level of cautiousness and by using the overpowered skills and weapons at their disposal.
The fact is, it's just a rogue-like/diablo-like with more RPG elements and slightly better quests.

I thought the combat was pretty good, actually. I made a build using psy powers and traps, and I had a lot of fun that way. Still, I wouldn't recommend this model as a good example of RPG combat exactly because a lot of things in it make no sense, like having a cool down to use grenades or having special status conditions that supposedly represent wounds or shock quickly go away in two or three combat rounds. The problem is that even if the end result is fun, it loses connection with anything that seems plausible. Yeah, I heard that a thousand times, why do you expect realism from a game with mutant rats and psychic powers? That is not the issue, though. mutant rats and psychic powers are explained, to a certain degree, by the internal logic of the game. having a cool down to throw a grenade on the other hand makes no sense. You could try to make it make sense by giving an in world explanation for why they work like that, but I rather doubt you could do that without making your game look like a farce, without making the game look like a parody of a game rather than its own thing.

 

[PapaPetro]

Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

Underrail combat is good because of cooldowns or good despite the cooldowns?

Let's discuss that: I don't care about MMO, Larian games and other shit, here's the truly good combat in a RPG with actual cooldowns.

Never cared for cooldowns. Would rather see a mechanic where you get diminished returns for spamming the same trick.
If there must be cooldowns, then randomize the cooldown and hide the timer.

 

[Butter]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

 

[PapaPetro]

Obviously.
I'm talking about spammable combat tricks/spells and such. So if you cast a fireball, you're free to it again but i'll get weaker each subsequent casting unless you give it a rest and mix it up.

Nades are consumables. Guns already have their "mana" in the form of bullets.

 

[Nano]

The arguments against cooldowns are ridiculous. A cooldown and mana system makes just as much sense as Vancian magic (if not more, because it's how magic is often portrayed in non-RPG fiction, especially the mana part).

 

[RickOmbo]

Games aren't art.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

Why?
Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

The anti-cooldown thing is just fucking weird. There's not even a coherent argument against it beyond "I HATE IT"

 

[Delterius]

psychic powers are real though

 

[Butter]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

Why?
Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

The anti-cooldown thing is just fucking weird. There's not even a coherent argument against it beyond "I HATE IT"

As much as possible, I think the rules of an RPG should be dictated by the rules of the setting. Psi is part of Underrail's setting. Cooldown are not.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

Why?
Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

The anti-cooldown thing is just fucking weird. There's not even a coherent argument against it beyond "I HATE IT"

As much as possible, I think the rules of an RPG should be dictated by the rules of the setting. Psi is part of Underrail's setting. Cooldown are not.

aimed shot has a 3 turn cooldown because it takes 3 turns to properly line up an aimed shot
welp guess you love cooldowns now

 

[Butter]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

Why?
Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

The anti-cooldown thing is just fucking weird. There's not even a coherent argument against it beyond "I HATE IT"

As much as possible, I think the rules of an RPG should be dictated by the rules of the setting. Psi is part of Underrail's setting. Cooldown are not.

aimed shot has a 3 turn cooldown because it takes 3 turns to properly line up an aimed shot
welp guess you love cooldowns now

Wouldn't that be a 3 turn charge-up instead of cooldown then?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It should be immediately obvious why you don't need cooldowns for something like a grenade. You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game, the same as you would for any other form of ammunition. For special attack types, you can modify their AP cost, or provide a drawback. For example, lunging at your target might give you increased damage at the cost of reduced defenses for the rest of the turn. Wherever possible, apply a drawback that makes sense logically.

Why?
Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

The anti-cooldown thing is just fucking weird. There's not even a coherent argument against it beyond "I HATE IT"

As much as possible, I think the rules of an RPG should be dictated by the rules of the setting. Psi is part of Underrail's setting. Cooldown are not.

aimed shot has a 3 turn cooldown because it takes 3 turns to properly line up an aimed shot
welp guess you love cooldowns now

Wouldn't that be a 3 turn charge-up instead of cooldown then?

Your character is capable of multitasking

 

[Ol' Willy]

You can just limit the number of grenades available in the game

Yeah. Crafting, randomized loot and refreshable traders - all of this easily allows to limit the number of grenades

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Kills all tactics of the combat and the combat becomes : Nuke 1, Nuke 2, Filler 1, Filler 2 (...), Filler N, Nuke 1(...) IE, become more about managing boring rotations

How does this differ from not having cooldowns where you only use your best abilities and ignore everything else?
Underrail has cooldowns and very few people here would argue that the combat is bad.

The reason you don't use your most powerful abilities with a cooldown system is that you might need them. The same reason you don't immediately just use all your most powerful spells in a Vancian system. If anything, this points to an issue in said games with cooldowns being too short and/or there not being enough of a threat to make the player hesitate using their most powerful abilities without conserving them.

It's not that simple.
In other systems there is a reason to not use your most powerful abilities right-away.
In vanccian system you won't be able to use the spells later after they are cast.
In mana system casting more than you need hurts you since you loose the resources for all your abilities.
In case of cooldowns you loose ability to use that one spell for some time. Also conserving them is more often than not a bad idea. Let's say that you have a powerful spell that takes 4 turns to regenerate. If you decide t conserve it and cast it on turn 5 then it means that you effectively wasted on cast of that spell. Since you could cast it on the first turn and still have it available later. Combat situations in RPGs usually don't degrade super-fast so often the safest move is to open the combat with your most powerful ability.
Also often in RPGs you don't need a specific spell on a specific turn. If you have a damage dealing wizards you need all the damage you can get for the entirety of the combat. The sooner you throw the spell the sooner you'll be able to throw it again. So the way to deal the most damage is most often to open the combat with your most powerful ability.

On the side-note it can get a bit silly. For example in Underrail I'm at the point where I can clean most hard encounters by throwing two grenades at clustered enemies. And I can throw two grenades in one turn. So what is my strategy? I throw a grenade, then I throw a flashbang in the same turn. Then I wait for the first grenade to regenerate before finishing the fight. It plays well, but it feels weird to throw three grenades when one would do just fine.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

In vanccian system you won't be able to use the spells later after they are cast.

Because the tradeoff is that you can just use it again immediately for as many times as you memorized it.
How is "cooldowns bad because you use most powerful spells" an argument when you do the same exact thing with Vancian except with no pause inbetween?

At any reasonably high level play in D&D cRPGs you have a ridiculous amount of spells capable of being memorized to begin with. How many spells can Edwin memorize by level 20 in BG2? 60+ or somesuch I'd assume? And that's not even mentioning what a high level wildmage can do. You've basically moved far beyond having any form of resource management here even without rest spamming.

Let's say that you have a powerful spell that takes 4 turns to regenerate. If you decide t conserve it and cast it on turn 5 then it means that you effectively wasted on cast of that spell. Since you could cast it on the first turn and still have it available later.

Let's say you cast it on turn 1 and oh no, on turn 3 you need to kill an enemy quickly for reasons but your highest damaging ability is on cooldown because you used the bigbrain idea from rpgcodex.

If combat is nothing but attacking one enemy for multiple turns straight with nothing else happening, then yes, I'll completely agree with your assertion that the game is designed horribly and it has nothing to do with cooldowns.

Also often in RPGs you don't need a specific spell on a specific turn. If you have a damage dealing wizards you need all the damage you can get for the entirety of the combat. The sooner you throw the spell the sooner you'll be able to throw it again. So the way to deal the most damage is most often to open the combat with your most powerful ability.

See above.

Basically, if you like fights where nothing happens except BIG NUMBERS BIG DAMAGE NUMBA WON! then you might dislike cooldowns.

 

[Cryomancer]

60+ or somesuch I'd assume? And that's not even mentioning what a high level wildmage can do. You've basically moved far beyond having any form of resource management here even without rest spamming.

Wrong. First because without ToB your lv cap is 17 and unless soloing or with small party, you will not be above lv 15 on SoA.

Second because there are ultra long encounters. I've used tons of spells when I soloed BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal

my spell usage

The final SoA battle was very hard. I've used :

• 5 tier 9/epic spells 3 -> summon planetar and 2 stop time
• 7 Tier 8 > 5 * horrid wilting + pierce shield (and forgot to unmemorize the spell trigger)
• 6 tier 7 > 3 finger of death + limited wish + Mordekainen's Sword
• 4 tier 6 spells > Two Invisible stalker + Spell deflection + True sigh
• 2 tier 5 spells > Two lower resists<
• 1 tier 4 spell > Greater Malison
• 5 tier 3 spells > 5 skull traps
• Zero tier 1/2 spells. I an a necromancer. Necromancers can't cast the good low level illusion spells.
• Total : 30 spells in battle
  

In addition to the spells used on the battle, i also used a LIMITED WISH to use a one time wish and cast a chain contingency and a sequencer and a spell trigger BUT don't remember which spells i picked and i don't have the usage on my spellbook. So we can sum + 9 to the spell usage. I also placed a lot of skull traps and rested, placed and rested on the arena, considering 5 skull traps per rest and 4 rests, I've casted 20 skull traps before the battle. That results in 59 spells being used to kill the enemy in that crazy high difficulty. Source https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg_gamers/comments/idtf1g/soloing_bg2eesoa_on_legacy_of_bhaal_as_a/

Third because when you are at epic level on ToB, you are fighting really long boss battles and some of then with high resistance to magic.

Fourth because in Mask of The betrayer, resting is more "limited" and affects your soul eater curse. On NWN1 - HotU, the siege on a drow city on chapter 2 can make you burn out of spell slots ultra quickly. Same with mephistopheles battle

Fifty because I could argue that if every cooldown is 0,1s, the cooldown becomes meaningless just like giving tons of spell slots and allowing resting everywere.

-----------------------

One of the justifications to cooldown on fire rain on Risen 3 was "people will spam it in every fight" however, all gothic games din't had cooldowns and fire rain was a high tier magic spell which low level mages can only use on scroll and takes so much mana that you should't spam. Much better IMO. And note, being a mage on gothic is far harder than being a mage on any BG games. I never made a pure mage in any gothic except mods and G3, the easiest one... An playing Returning 2.0(overall mod) as a water mage. One of the aspects which I love is the lack of cooldown.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Wrong. First because without ToB your lv cap is 17 and unless soloing or with small party, you will not be above lv 15 on SoA.

Simply by having ToB installed the XP cap is 8 million in SoA.

Second because there are ultra long encounters. I've used tons of spells when I soloed BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal

How is "look at all these spells I was able to spam in one fight" a good argument against cooldowns?

Third because when you are at epic level on ToB, you are fighting really long boss battles and some of then with high resistance to magic.

Same thing again.


The only coherent argument out of these posts so far is "man, mages in D&D are really fucking overpowered and I sure do hope cRPGs do nothing to change that."

 

[Gruncheon]

The main appeal of RPGs is in providing a false sensation of improvement to the player, without actually demanding that they improve their own skills as a player of the game.

Committed RPG fans think of the genre as being pretty 'smart'. But most RPGs don't demand much brainpower to complete. People generally follow a build which they've obtained, and then follow that build to the end of the game. There'll usually be a few limited builds that are strictly better than all other builds. Levelling up and acquiring additional stats are there to provide a completely false illusion of skill improvement. The main 'skill' is in choosing the best skills at character creation (which a blind player can have no idea are the 'best' skills) and pouring points into those at each level up. The levelling system disguises the fact that most RPGs don't demand more in the way of player thought or strategy at the end of the game than they do at the start. In a lot of RPGs, the biggest challenge occurs with an underlevelled party at the start of the game. Only a tiny minority of RPGs demand more of the player than winning a Chess game in the 1000-1200 rating bracket.

 

[Cryomancer]

The only coherent argument out of these posts so far is "man, mages in D&D are really fucking overpowered and I sure do hope cRPGs do nothing to change that."

This balance cult is part of why most modern RPG's sucks. And the problem with D&D is not that casters are OP. Is that martial classes are BOOOORING. Make casters eqqually boring is not a solution. Add a lot of non sensical ludonarrative dissonance to the game is not solution either.

If was up to me, Magic would be more dangerous to everyone including the caster. Sorcerers would gain the benefit and downsides of a particular bloodline, not only the benefits. Eg - Silver draconic sorcerers on pathfinder gain immunity to cold, but not the vulnerability to fire, they should get it and be unable to cast spells with fire descriptor. Spells should have a chance of botch and blow up in your hands among other things. Not because "muh balance" but because failure and flaws are interesting things to play and deal with it. Martial classes, mainly after lv 5 would have some supernatural abilities and more variety on their non supernatural abilities.

On Dark Sun : Wake of the Ravager, my half giant gladiator is by far the MVP of my party. What is the problem? Is a freaking high level half giant. It needs to be powerful. On Gothic, mages has a really hard time in the game, on G2 for eg, you need to join in a monastery, paying 1k which is a lot of early game, escort a sheep, then inside the monastery, do tons of quests and demand a "trial by fire". Only after it, you can finally become a fire mage. And then, you need to spend LP learning runes, increasing mana, finding the reagents, etc; to craft your spells. Took 9 hours for me to become a fire magician and I could only fire two fire arrows per rest.

Magic needs to reflect the world lore.