Crafting In CRPG's.

[Hobo Elf]

I liked the simplicity of alchemy in Arx Fatalis. Green flowers became green potions, blue flowers became blue potions etc. and if you are familiar with RPGs at all you can already tell what the potion does based on the color. I didn't have to run around looting dandelions and weeds and wondering what the shit I needed to make a simple potion of healing. More often than not crafting is a long and tedious process and not very rewarding either. I guess Two Worlds had an interesting take on it with the item fusion and free form alchemy system.

Perhaps the real question is recipe based crafting vs free form.

 

[Phelot]

I guess crafting is to be expected in a sandbox world. I tend to be a item hoarder so if I can finally have an excuse as to why I'm collecting hundreds of potatoes and carrots, I'd like one. Unfortunately, crafting tends to be rather lackluster in most sandbox games like Skyrim, mostly because you can get away with NOT crafting... that might sound strange, but it'd be nice if acquiring weapons/etc. was a bit more difficult.

A few examples of games that I thought did crafting well:

Unreal World. I mean, you have to craft stuff in order to survive and it can be incredibly satisfying making a bunch of javelins and hunting with them. Stuff you made! Same goes for making clothes and stuff. Sadly, the game I have doesn't allow smithing, but I hear they are working on a new version that will. Really the key here that makes crafting fun is that it's necessary in order to do well in the game and in fact, gives purpose to the game. Sure, you can run around trying to steal or kill for stuff, but being ironman, you'll get yourself killed pretty quick that way and it's incredibly boring in my opinion.

JA2. Not really crafting, but modding and experimenting with items. I love that. I know a lot of adventure games require this as well. I don't know, I just think there's something nice about thinking "Hmmm... wonder what would happen if I combine this rag with the gasoline and the bottle?" and coming up with a molotov cocktail. This is opposed to the traditional "Find recipe. Find exact ingredients. Go to special crafting screen. Craft" system we normally get. It makes the whole thing seem like a chore rather than making it a part of the gameplay, if that makes sense.

 

[Drakron]

Skyrim problem with crafting is they allow you to raise skill fast but it also levels your character and so adds higher level enemies to the game.

It does prevent high tier gear for being crafted with low-medium characters that would be near invulnerable but at the same time makes easy for players to screw up character progression because they overleveled and lack the proper combat skills to survive, in fact what makes the higher tier gear useful is when its coupled with the armor perks since the perks bonus is what makes the difference.

So ultimate crafting in Skyrim is something that requires the player to know the system, attempts to abuse it will simply create a underpowered character.

 

[Grunker]

I hate crafting, it's boring as fuck. I'd rather kill people and take their stuff.

This, a hundred times this.

 

[Surf Solar]

I hate crafting, it's boring as fuck. I'd rather kill people and take their stuff.

This, a hundred times this.

What about the all fabled "give me different ways to do things in RPG" or "it shall be possible to totally avoid combat and still get cool stuff"? :/

 

[MMXI]

What about the all fabled "give me different ways to do things in RPG" or "it shall be possible to totally avoid combat and still get cool stuff"? :/

That's largely irrelevant for crafting because all crafting does is attempt to replace something that's already in the game: merchants. What's the real difference between making items and buying items? Customisation? What if you can ask craftsmen for custom made items? What's the difference? You end up with two competing features. Can you buy better items than you can craft or can you craft better items than you can buy? What is there to gain from the creation of that dilemma? An extra skill on your character sheet for the sake of it?

 

[Grunker]

I hate crafting, it's boring as fuck. I'd rather kill people and take their stuff.

This, a hundred times this.

What about the all fabled "give me different ways to do things in RPG" or "it shall be possible to totally avoid combat and still get cool stuff"? :/

The killing people was just an synonym for completing objectives for me

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

It seems I fall into the "rather kill people and loot stuff" camp. In addition to what's already been mentioned, a crafting system requires ingredients. Ingredients tend to be a bunch of small useless (or near useless) items everywhere. Which is annoying. And managing all of this tends to be clunky and time consuming.

 

[Surf Solar]

What if no one but you knows how to create this item? Craftsmen are hardly adventurers who travel in parties to the next dungeon - while you can do that utilizing some of your skills (and no, not the "crafting" skill) to create some cool stuff on the fly? Hell, you don't even need to use it, think of just creating this shit to the merchants who will drool and pay good money for it.

Ofcourse, if the only thing you can think of crafting is grinding some stuff, then I agree it is very boring.

 

[FinalSonicX]

I have a well-developed crafting system I use in my real-life P&P RPG games and it has worked out extremely well. I could foresee my system working well in certain CRPGs as well.

There are a variety of crafting categories, and crafting anything in these areas requires training and some skill points invested in the relevant crafting skill. The time required is quite significant and the costs of crafting are nontrivial, so my players do not often sit around grinding their crafting to make money. At best it supplements their income somewhat when they might overproduce one type of item on accident or may have produced a particularly well-made object. In order to craft anything beyond what is easily purchased, they must invest points each level (thus reducing their proficiency in some other aspect of their character's skillset), though there are feats and races which boost crafting in particular areas.

The best part is that my categories often times span multiple classes/roles, so the parties often end up with a nice mixture of crafting disciplines and various levels of skill. Alchemists often search for herbs while traveling, inspect liquids/fungi found in dungeons, and have sometimes gone out to look for herbs for various time-critical problems. Engineers have constructed complex traps and designed fortresses, looked for weak points, etc. The weapon and armor crafters of course create special arms and armor for the party, Bowmakers craft arrows while down in the dungeon and repair/maintain their bow, and tailors assist with repairs to clothing, create fine clothingfor noblemen or traders, and help with bandages.

The crafting of special items always requires special ingredients or materials and as a result sometimes my players have gone on quests specifically looking for materials they need to craft their next big item. Because I couple this system with a gem socketing system which allows for enchantments to be added/removed, it allows players to invest in their own gear and feel attached to their favorite items. Eventually, if they've made it through close to level 20, I might make one or two of their items into legacy/artifact items.

I think the key to a successful crafting system in a CRPG is that it needs to be able to create both common and obscure/awesome items, it needs to require a lot of time and effort both in terms of player and character investment (thus it works best with games where the player is not the sole catalyst for events occurring in the world), and players need to feel somewhat attached to their crafted items - personalization or customization according to playstyle are desirable.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What about the all fabled "give me different ways to do things in RPG" or "it shall be possible to totally avoid combat and still get cool stuff"? :/

That's largely irrelevant for crafting because all crafting does is attempt to replace something that's already in the game: merchants. What's the real difference between making items and buying items?

Making items is a skill-based activity. Buying isn't.

What if you can ask craftsmen for custom made items? What's the difference? You end up with two competing features. Can you buy better items than you can craft or can you craft better items than you can buy? What is there to gain from the creation of that dilemma? An extra skill on your character sheet for the sake of it?

Why learn magic when you can buy scrolls and bombs from merchants? You end up with two competing features....

Why steal something when you can buy it? What is there to gain? An extra skill on your character sheet for the sake of it?

One can argue that RPGs have always been about killing stuff. Thus, all you really need a single "killing stuff" skill measuring your aptitude and abilities. This would be boring, however, which is why good RPGs have fairly detailed character systems with a variety of skills.

As for buying vs looting vs crafting, much like everything else in RPGs, it's a question of design and balance. If you can buy everything you can find, then exploring and looting are pointless. If you can't buy anything decent, then it's not a store but a loot drop off point. So, every "item acquisition" element should have pros and cons, and no element should be "same as" or better than the other (one or two) by default.

Crafting is an alternative, and as such should always be a welcome addition. If done right, it wouldn't replace buying or exploring for items, but give the player more options and will reduce the need to provide the player with every possible item type.

Let's say you're putting together a game. At some point you decide that it's time to reward the player with a magical weapon. What do you do? Load the chest with +1 weapon of every type? It's silly. Add them to the traders' inventories? It's also silly. It's much better to give the player tools to break apart what he finds and make whatever he needs.

 

[Mrowak]

I hate crafting, it's boring as fuck. I'd rather kill people and take their stuff.

This, a hundred times this.

If crafting is boring it just means it isn't done right. Crafting should be meaningful - it ought to let you get things you could not obtain otherwise in the given situation e.g. in low-magic setting crafting you own wand is the only way to cast high-level spells. Similarly with brewing potions - you can benefit from certain magical/healing effects only by drinking potions you (or the party's alchemist) made - there's nowhere to buy them, and you have no spells that can emulate similar results. By the same token a wondrous item like a magic ring should not simulate the effect of a spell that some character in the game can cast - rather than that it should offer unique powers.

As much as I like the idea of unique items I still think having it can be complemented with good item crafting system. Say a wizard, no matter how powerful, can only craft max +2 weapons. There are, however, legendary weapons which can exceed the limit. Unfortunately, in the day and age the player lives they are scarce and badly damaged - like artifacts. So a +1 sword you found in an ancient tomb may turn out to be Excalibur. Having that knowledge and Arms crafting proficiency you can attempt to repair it - perhaps gradually, as skills, materials, knowledge permit. All the better if you can alter the original scheme and make something like Unholy Excalibur (+3 cursed weapon with vampiric drain ability). Makes sense, can be meaningful and fun.

Let's not forget that the usefulness of items largely depends on gameplay and how resistant to abuse it is e.g. the idea of item brewing potions can cause a major healing potion spam, destroying the balance of comabt and credibility of the game-world. However, what if the number of allowed consumption of potion was linked to Constitution score - for instance, in D&D terms a player with +3 bonus to constitution could drink only three potions per day. One more than that and your get serious poisoning penalties to your physical/mental stats. Two more and you become unconscious/die. It solves the issue of potion-spam and makes them meaningful (especially if they are the only way to immediately heal wounds).

 

[Captain Shrek]

What about the all fabled "give me different ways to do things in RPG" or "it shall be possible to totally avoid combat and still get cool stuff"? :/

That's largely irrelevant for crafting because all crafting does is attempt to replace something that's already in the game: merchants. What's the real difference between making items and buying items?

Making items is a skill-based activity. Buying isn't.

Appraise/Barter? But I guess you mean BUYING as the act not the haggling part.

 

[Mrowak]

I think the key to a successful crafting system in a CRPG is that it needs to be able to create both common and obscure/awesome items, it needs to require a lot of time and effort both in terms of player and character investment (thus it works best with games where the player is not the sole catalyst for events occurring in the world), and players need to feel somewhat attached to their crafted items - personalization or customization according to playstyle are desirable.

This. This, all the way.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Some thoughts on crafting:

Crafting as a skill should have something that makes it more than generic: Invest -> Make model.

One way of doing that is mixing components a la Witcher, so as to get effects. Witcher had a VERY basic system. An intelligent implementation can actually improve upon the complexity to make the experience quite rewarding. If there is also an element of randomness involved then it might actually be better (although I can't see how it should be done, but someone can).

I personally favor low magic settings, where Armour of Hippopotamic strength is the Final Boss level armor. You'd have access to leather or chain mail, plate or scale being exclusive items. If the system is fine tuned for a balance between Damage/Attack (DR/AC) and HP, then Armor can be made very important and even small changes in Armor values can be gladly accepted. One of the requirements of this idea is to scale the PASSIVE Attack/Damage very slowly except perhaps for VERY specialized classes, instead allowing big damage/attack through scantily available special moves that consume resource like stamina, which regenerates ONLY out of combat (or sufficiently slowly; again a balance issue). In such a case, Armor quality can be introduced: Crude -> Common -> Fine -> Well crafted armor that gives increasing advantages, with abilities to actually craft higher level armor as perks acquired slowly, so as to encourage crafting.

 

[crufty]

Crafting, like cooking should be left to professionals.

Crafting basic goods is ok, but in general, an adventurer should be selling their loot and paying a craftsman.

 

[Mrowak]

Crafting, like cooking should be left to professionals.

Crafting basic goods is ok, but in general, an adventurer should be selling their loot and paying a craftsman.

To whom and for what kind of money, if we are talking abour realism? Blacksmiths, for instance, have little use for all the heavy weapons you bring from the dungeon, and I doubt they would buy any magic stuff from you, even if they could afford. What to do with it? They are not retailers to offer you even half of the price of the full item no matter what. They can hardly sell stuff they haven't made.

One more thing. I find it quite laughable when the game imposes a role of 'an adventurer'. The what? Who? You mean it's a job? And what do they do for a living - go from town to town, to solve everyon's problems? Come on! Most 'adventurers' turn out to be highly skilled professionals that go on adventure for a reason. They have higher skills in the discipline of their choice - so why not to utilise them to make things better? A hacker, for instance, could modify his cybernetic equipment. A mage could brew a potion or two. Maybe that warrior travels around the world to learn new ways of swordsmithing? Maybe that McGyverish rogue, given right parts and time could improve fuel output in party's car. How about letting our balistics engineer work on that sniper riffle with the parts we scrapped from abandoned military base. The possibilities are endless.

 

[MMXI]

Making items is a skill-based activity. Buying isn't.

Says who?

Why learn magic when you can buy scrolls and bombs from merchants? You end up with two competing features....

But scrolls could have benefits such as not having class restrictions, not having level requirements, as well as not using up mana/spell slots. The downside could be a huge monetary cost or rarity. Assuming you aren't the only person in the world who can craft items for your needs (i.e. there is some civilization in the game), the difference between buying an item (or paying for it to be made) and crafting it yourself is immediacy. You could be in the middle of a dungeon and need a sword as soon as possible to replace one that's broken. You could head back to the nearest cleared out enemy forge and forge one using scrap metal. Excellent. And if you head back to this post you'd see that I agree with having trade skills in this capacity if these scenarios are possible (and significant) in the game. But when we're looking at trade skills being used to "cut out the middleman" in the in-game economy, it adds nothing to a typical cRPG. Only if you have a cRPG with a decent economic model, allowing you to put people out of business, set up trading deals and ultimately play the game as a businessman, will proper trade skills fit.

Why steal something when you can buy it? What is there to gain? An extra skill on your character sheet for the sake of it?

You can't necessarily buy things you steal. Quest related items for instance. Reverse pickpocketing too to frame NPCs. For "obtaining" items from a shop, a point in a bargaining/haggling skill may be far more beneficial on average than a pickpocketing skill, and it'll work in reverse for selling items too.

One can argue that RPGs have always been about killing stuff. Thus, all you really need a single "killing stuff" skill measuring your aptitude and abilities. This would be boring, however, which is why good RPGs have fairly detailed character systems with a variety of skills.

The difference is that most skills and attributes are decently complementary. In the vast majority of cRPGs that feature crafting, crafting just doesn't fit in well enough.

Crafting is an alternative, and as such should always be a welcome addition. If done right, it wouldn't replace buying or exploring for items, but give the player more options and will reduce the need to provide the player with every possible item type.

Yeah. And you can have a teaching skill which you can level up that allows you to teach yourself other skills. It's an alternative way of leveling up after all. Why go out practising your various skills when you can teach yourself it using your teaching skill? Plenty of cRPGs have "trainers" that boost your character in multiple ways. Why can't you be one? If you can be a craftsman just like all those NPC craftsmen then it only makes sense to allow you to be a teacher.

 

[Excidium]

Maybe I should elaborate a bit. I don't hate crafting, I just hate the way it's done on most CRPGs. That said, gathering rare materials to craft a special item can be an adventure in itself, which isn't so bad.

 

[flushfire]

Why go out practising your various skills when you can teach yourself it using your teaching skill?

You can't teach yourself something you don't already know now can you?

It's silly that a lot of these problems dont exist in MMOs just because most have what i believe makes crafting viable: the scarcity of gold (or whatever currency). If npcs asked for ridiculous prices for high-level wares and gold isnt as easy to come by as most single player games, the player definitely would see crafting as a viable alternative. It's really just a balance thing, say stealing is in the same game, wouldn't it be a better alternative since you can just steal the gold needed to buy the expensive item you can craft for cheap. But what if stealing carries other risks upon success that you can't just save/load to get around?

 

[MMXI]

You can't teach yourself something you don't already know now can you?

That's actually my point.

It's silly that a lot of these problems dont exist in MMOs just because most have what i believe makes crafting viable: the scarcity of gold (or whatever currency).

Well, MMOs have decent economies because it's the human players who are involved in it. The value of gold doesn't really matter. Items basically find their own value in the game. Single player cRPGs suck in this regard and therefore services should remain services rather than a valid play style for the player unless the developers are willing to put in the effort.

If npcs asked for ridiculous prices for high-level wares and gold isnt as easy to come by as most single player games, the player definitely would see crafting as a viable alternative. It's really just a balance thing, say stealing is in the same game, wouldn't it be a better alternative since you can just steal the gold needed to buy the expensive item you can craft for cheap. But what if stealing carries other risks upon success that you can't just save/load to get around?

Well, if the sole point of crafting is to get items cheaper then you've got a hell of a lot of balancing to do as you will end up with a huge array of skills that are there to save you money.

 

[Drakron]

Well, MMOs have decent economies because it's the human players who are involved in it. The value of gold doesn't really matter.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...

Oh? You are serious ...

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...

...

No.

I played Guild War that was supposed to be a player driven economy and that was a massive inflation were things (like dyes) ended up costing THOUSANDS of gold and eventually they had to step in and attempted to solve the issue with a NPC that given a basic "appraisal" of how a item would cost at that time.

MMO economies work by removing gold as its also added in, things like fast travel usually cost a small fee, its also very easy to fuck up (full player driven will cause massive inflation to the point currency stops having any value) and a degree of control exists, that is why there are shops on those games.

The question of crafting is to provide activities for the player, in some cases there even items that can only be crafted as they are not available to be found in the game world.

 

[MMXI]

What? I'm not talking about shitty NPC vendors. I'm talking about stuff like WoW's auction houses. It's all driven by supply and demand. If gold becomes more plentiful because of an expansion pack which adds a new higher level area then the prices will rise over time to match. Sure, there's bound to be inflation, especially with new content added on, but are you actually saying that the economy in a game like EVE is worse than Skyrim's? Thought not.

EDIT: The MMO forum is that way.

 

[flushfire]

That's actually my point.

I'm a little embarassed to say that I don't get your point. Teaching is actually a viable mechanic as if I remember correctly JA did it fine, however you can't teach more than what you already know, so what you said about not going out but just teach yourself doesn't really make any sense to me even if it was supposed to be an analogy on how crafting is in another player game. If you mean to say that you shouldn't/wouldn't craft items for yourself then I still don't see why not?

Single player cRPGs suck in this regard and therefore services should remain services rather than a valid play style for the player unless the developers are willing to put in the effort.

...then you've got a hell of a lot of balancing to do as you will end up with a huge array of skills that are there to save you money.

If money isn't so easy to come by then why not? I don't see what should be so difficult about it as plenty of games have done it before. Isn't pickpocketing as a separate skill just the same? If it can be done with effort then that just means it's how it's implemented, not that it is not a valid skill by nature.

 

[sea]

As long as the stuff you can create through crafting is unique and different to the items you can normally buy/find, I have nothing against it. It also makes use of some otherwise junk items in the game.

Think of a rather large quest where you find schemes for a certain item, then you need to find the ingredients to craft it and so on. Feels much more rewarding than just throwing item xy at the end of a dungeon.

It is also very cool to give the player some sense of accopmplishment if you tie crafting requirements to different skills, rather than just "crafting" skill.
Want to create some healing items? Take some survival skill, or an alchemy skill. High Repair/Science skill? Upgrade your weapons, other builds won't be able to do it that easily, etc.

That is a quest, not a crafting system, yet it describes the ideal crafting system... hmm, funny how that works. Oh wait, maybe in fact you've just revealed that crafting systems in themselves are never that interesting to begin with and creating skills around crafting, as some sort of rote, repetitive act is stupid. At most it should be something that determines whether you should be able to get the Mega Awesome Item of Quality, not something that you spend hours leveling up or spending thousands of gold on. Even then, crafting is only really interesting when juxtaposed with other systems... i.e., do I put points into crafting to get this cool item I can't get anywhere else, or do I put them into speech to bypass fights entirely? At best it's a secondary sort of skill used to augmenting existing ones; choosing which of those secondaries and weighing their trade-offs is what makes things compelling in the first place.

The only time a crafting system ever really works, even when designed well, is in a) an MMO or b) an open world game. In a), crafting is often the only way to get a really cool item (unless you want to use another skill to create something else of value, then trade it), often requiring lots of time and specializing in skill. In b), crafting is there mostly to justify the open world in the first place - namely, if you have a huge world, you need something to do in it; one of those things is combat, another might be collecting stuff, which you then use for something else. I'vewritten at length about open world games and how they're built top-down rather than bottom-up (i.e. "okay we've made an open world, now we need to actually give the player something to do in it!"), and whether it's Agility Orbs in Crackdown or ingredients in Skyrim, it's there because the designers otherwise couldn't really give a good reason for there to be an open world in the first place.