D&D 5E Discussion

[HeroMarine]

The real question is why da fuck the creature helps the magician instead of getting shocked by the sudden change in environment or simply running away.

The answer might surprise you.

Spoiler

magic

 

[Alex]

This is such a random thought but I've been wondering lately about summons in D&D. Bear in mind I've never played the game myself.

How exactly do they work? When a mage summons a monster or an animal - where does that creature come from? Does it just materialise? Does it come from another plane or do mages and druids literally pluck creatures from another part of the world to use them in fights?

Well the way it's presented is that for extra planar creatures they come from their home plane. For prime material plane they're teleported in.

Which is actually the same shit, since the planar creatures also have a world of their own and day-to-day habits like any other. The real question is why da fuck the creature helps the magician instead of getting shocked by the sudden change in environment or simply running away.

D&D is a game where the less you think about it, the better it becomes. Start pricking at the seams and it falls apart.

Because the summoning spell also compels it to. It is not that hard, really; and if you don't like it, or would like to do things differently, it is easy enough to change how the spell works as well.

 

[Silva]

It wasn't made to make sense, no matter what justification one produces.

 

[JamesDixon]

This is such a random thought but I've been wondering lately about summons in D&D. Bear in mind I've never played the game myself.

How exactly do they work? When a mage summons a monster or an animal - where does that creature come from? Does it just materialise? Does it come from another plane or do mages and druids literally pluck creatures from another part of the world to use them in fights?

Well the way it's presented is that for extra planar creatures they come from their home plane. For prime material plane they're teleported in.

Which is actually the same shit, since the planar creatures also have a world of their own and day-to-day habits like any other. The real question is why da fuck the creature helps the magician instead of getting shocked by the sudden change in environment or simply running away.

D&D is a game where the less you think about it, the better it becomes. Start pricking at the seams and it falls apart.

It's actually not the same stuff as the location is different. In my world there is no planes of existence, so they all come from different planets. I use celestial theology where every god has their own planet.

The summoning spell is two fold. It summons the creature to you and it binds the creature to your will forcing it to serve you. In the case of powerful summoners they can summon the group and take them back to their native plane.

The planes and their function haven't changed since OD&D. They may have expanded them out a bit more, but otherwise they're the same.

 

[JamesDixon]

It wasn't made to make sense, no matter what justification one produces.

Well I was avoiding having to quote AD&D 2E PHB, but you've given me no other choice. Note 1 round in AD&D 2E is equal to one minute.

Monster Summoning I

Range: Special
Duration: 2 rounds + 1 round per level
Area of Effect: 30 yard radius
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 segments
Saving Throw: None

Within one round of casting this spell, the wizard magically conjures 2d4 1st level monsters (selected by the DM, from his 1st-level encounter tables). The monsters appear anywhere within the spell's area of effect, as desired by the wizard. They attack the spell user's opponents to the best of their ability until either he commands that the attacks cease, the spell duration expires, or the monsters are slain. These creatures do not check morale, but they vanish when slain. Note that if no opponent exists to fight summoned monsters, can, if the wizard can communicate with them and if they are physically able, perform other services for the summoning wizard.

In rare cases, adventurers have been known to disappear, summoned by powerful spellcasters using this spell. Those summoned recall all the details of their trip.

The material components of this spell are a tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lite) candle.

The spell itself makes it very easy to understand on how it works. The how and where the monsters comes from is up to the DM's discretion. The basics apply to the other summoning spells as well.

 

[Alex]

It wasn't made to make sense, no matter what justification one produces.

It is really up to how the DM and the group want to play it. If you want the rules to make sense in world and only represent the basic idea of how things may happen, you are free to do so. If, on the other hand, you want to play the game as a "game", without worrying that the rules don't make much sense by themselves, you can do that as well. The older editions expected the first mindset, which is exactly why they got more and more detailed as time went on. Basic rules in the AD&D 1e for how certain humanoid monsters organised in 2e became full fledged descriptions of societal and ecologic habits (though, to be fair, those frequently didn't actually consider a whole lot how to fit the monster in question into the adventure). Planescape described what happened when a creature was summoned, for instance, and even allowed for it to happen to player characters.

Now, you might prefer to do things the other way; and if you do you are welcome to play the game however you want. But pretending this is the right way to play, or that there isn't (or at least wasn't) support to play it some other way is a bald lie.

 

[JamesDixon]

So perusing the Conjure spells from D&D 5E it tells you exactly where the summoned creature comes from. Here's the spell for fiends.

5th-level conjuration (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 40 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You summon fiends to appear in an unoccupied space within range. These fiends come from somewhere in the lower planes, and return when the spell ends. Choose one of the following options:

• One fiend of challenge rating 4 or lower
• 2 fiends of challenge rating 3 or lower
• 4 fiends of challenge rating 2 or lower
• 8 fiends of challenge rating of 1 or lower

The fiends remain until the duration of the spell ends, and any undead summoned disappears when reduced to 0 hit points.

The summoned fiends are friendly to you and your allies. Roll initiative for the fiend as a group, though each has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands you issue them. If you do not issue them any commands, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but take no other actions.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell using a higher level spell slot, you choose one of the summoning options above, but more creatures appear; three times as many with a 8th level slot, and four times as many with a 9th level slot.

So where is the confusion at Silva?

 

[Silva]

There's no confusion. It's just silly (because "magic!"). And potentialy dehumanizing too, considering you're basically enslaving sentient beings.

I don't have anything against it, because I play D&D too. But that doesn't exclude the fact it's a gamey construct that will break if you think about it in any minimally realistic context.

 

[JamesDixon]

There's no confusion. It's just silly (because "magic!"). And potentialy dehumanizing too, considering you're basically enslaving sentient beings.

I don't have anything against it, because I play D&D too. But that doesn't exclude the fact it's a gamey construct that will break if you think about it in any minimally realistic context.

It doesn't break when you know the rules of the universe. Yes, it's so dehumanizing of demons etc... who are not human... Yes, it's enslaving creatures to your will and has been a part of the genre long before you or I were born. Deal with it or change your homegrown universe to something you like. Otherwise, I don't care.

You're not a dirty filthy SJW freak are you?

 

[Silva]

Lol no, I'm not a SJW.

I admit that rule bothers me a bit because I'm a big fan of the Planescape setting where every planar creature - even the protagonists - can be subjected to it, and the reasoning behind being compelled (magic!) always bothered me somehow. I would prefer a more elaborated version of that spell. Something that implies a previous pact with a demon, or say, one where you can only summon immaterial stuff like spirits, elementals, etc.

 

[Alex]

There's no confusion. It's just silly (because "magic!").

There are plenty of things in D&D that can be hard to make sense of. Hit points, for instance, are an abstract representation of a character's ability to soak damage in various ways. But it is necessarily linked to constitution and it needs to be healed through magic or long rests, for instance. Max levels for demi-humans is likewise something a lot of people don't really see how to make sense of. But if you are willing to accept that there is such thing as magic in the game world, then I don't really see why you have a problem accepting the said magic can make a random creature fight for you. Especially since there are other spells that do exactly that without calling the said creature from another place.

And potentialy dehumanizing too, considering you're basically enslaving sentient beings.

Ok, but that is "silly" how? I mean, if you want to make this kind of spells "evil" in some way, you are again free to do so. Not all spells are supposed to be something a good person would do. You have spells that raise the bodies of the dead to do your bidding, that let you take over someone's body while sealing their spirit somewhere else, that let you kill someone by literally frightening them to death, but forcing a creature to work for you for a while is where you drew the line?

I don't have anything against it, because I play D&D too. But that doesn't exclude the fact it's a gamey construct that will break if you think about it in any minimally realistic context.

How deeply thought out your game is always depends on you. The basic books will give you a bunch of tools to use, but it obviously can't really work out all the ramifications of what it is presenting. For example, the ramifications of there being such a thing as a resurrection spell depend a whole lot on how easy it is to find someone capable of using it. Also, since these spells tend to belong to clerics, there are a whole lot of political ramifications they may bring as well. If you don't want to think about these, again, you are free to. But it is silly to refuse to do so and then say the game is silly because there are no such ramifications. They will depend largely on the setting, on the DM and what kind of game you play. Maybe whole kingdoms might be toppled for a single scroll that can bring back the dead; or maybe it is like in wizardry where you just need to pay the local temple to get revived.

 

[Rean]

Lol no, I'm not a SJW.

I admit that rule bothers me a bit because I'm a big fan of the Planescape setting where every planar creature - even the protagonists - can be subjected to it, and the reasoning behind being compelled (magic!) always bothered me somehow. I would prefer a more elaborated version of that spell. Something that implies a previous pact with a demon, or say, one where you can only summon immaterial stuff like spirits, elementals, etc.

Nothing prevents you from expanding on the description of the spell, altering it or removing it altogether so that it makes sense for you. There is actually zero point in discussing/nitpicking the mechanics of a tabletop system because, by its very nature, it's subject to the whims of the GM/worldbuilder.

 

[JamesDixon]

Lol no, I'm not a SJW.

I admit that rule bothers me a bit because I'm a big fan of the Planescape setting where every planar creature - even the protagonists - can be subjected to it, and the reasoning behind being compelled (magic!) always bothered me somehow. I would prefer a more elaborated version of that spell. Something that implies a previous pact with a demon, or say, one where you can only summon immaterial stuff like spirits, elementals, etc.

Nothing prohibits you from creating a new spell that is ritualistic and functions like you want. The spells presented are ones that were created by players like you and I way back in the old days of OD&D and AD&D. The named spells are from the likes of Gary playing his wizard Mordenkainen. So have fun and create spells you want to see and fits the world you play/run.

You don't even have to use the Vanican spell system that D&D was created with. If you want all magic to be ritualistic you can. If you want it mana based then you can.

In Myths of Malignost, the savage priest and wizard kits use mana points with off the cuff spell creation where the players define every bit about the spell from special effect, to single target or area effect, and damage/effect. Everything they pick alters the mana cost of the spell. Once the tech level of the world advances to have writing, paper, and permanent buildings does the proper wizard and priest class, and their kits, unlocks to have the standard AD&D 2E Vanican spell system.

 

[Rean]

Let's talk more about liggers. I fucking hate them!

 

[JamesDixon]

Let's talk more about liggers. I fucking hate them!

I'm torn about including liggers in Myths of Malignost. I'm definitely nixing zombies. I hate them since nobody does them right like accounting for the population of the dead in an area. It's always too many zombies for what the population can realistically supply.

 

[Rean]

Let's talk more about liggers. I fucking hate them!

I'm torn about including liggers in Myths of Malignost. I'm definitely nixing zombies. I hate them since nobody does them right like accounting for the population of the dead in an area. It's always too many zombies for what the population can realistically supply.

Yes. For undead thralls, skeletons should always outnumber zombies by a massive ratio. Although in settings where magic is a thing, zombies still make more sense than the way they're portrayed in dumb mainstream TV shows that attempt to be realistic.
I use ghouls as a form of sentient undead.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

There's no confusion. It's just silly (because "magic!"). And potentialy dehumanizing too, considering you're basically enslaving sentient beings.

I don't have anything against it, because I play D&D too. But that doesn't exclude the fact it's a gamey construct that will break if you think about it in any minimally realistic context.

Summoning spells aren't any sillier than charm, geas, or similar enchantment spells; the key difference is that the summoning spell imports creatures from elsewhere but for a relatively short duration. As with a charm, the summoned monsters are compelled to fight for or otherwise assist the caster until the spell ends or is dispelled. Concerns about dehumanization or enslavement could be equally applied to the charm spell, which is a standard of low-level magic-users, or to the geas that is common in fantasy literature and also exists in D&D as a relatively powerful spell.

 

[Larianshill]

Concerns about dehumanization or enslavement could be equally applied to the charm spell, which is a standard of low-level magic-users

Enchantment was an evil school in Dragonlance, wasn't it

 

[JamesDixon]

Concerns about dehumanization or enslavement could be equally applied to the charm spell, which is a standard of low-level magic-users

Enchantment was an evil school in Dragonlance, wasn't it

It was allowed to white, red, and black robed wizards.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Concerns about dehumanization or enslavement could be equally applied to the charm spell, which is a standard of low-level magic-users

Enchantment was an evil school in Dragonlance, wasn't it

I just checked the Dragonlance Adventures AD&D 1st edition setting book, and the enchantment/charm school can be used by wizards of both the White and Black robes but not Red (neutral) robes, while in the conjuration/summoning school White robes are permitted conjuration only, Black robes are permitted summoning only, and Red robes are permitted both. This seems to have been faithfully replicated in the Gold Box Krynn trilogy:

The underlying logic seems to be that each mage alignment has one magic school permitted only to it, one magic school prohibited only to it, and divination is allowed for everyone --- though conjuration/summoning is an exception in being split in two with only Red robes having access to both parts

 

[JamesDixon]

Concerns about dehumanization or enslavement could be equally applied to the charm spell, which is a standard of low-level magic-users

Enchantment was an evil school in Dragonlance, wasn't it

I just checked the Dragonlance Adventures AD&D 1st edition setting book, and the enchantment/charm school can be used by wizards of both the White and Black robes but not Red (neutral) robes, while in the conjuration/summoning school White robes are permitted conjuration only, Black robes are permitted summoning only, and Red robes are permitted both. This seems to have been faithfully replicated in the Gold Box Krynn trilogy:

Here's Tales of the Lance boxed set from AD&D 2E.

 

[RangerBoo]

Thac0 the clown

Reminds me of when Sir Tech added that Cleve easter egg in JA2.

You just know that Wizard's is ass mad and projecting big time as more and more people are going to OSR and I think deep down they know that their new audience of AGP child grooming gender blobs, man hating feminists and animal fucking fur fags aren't going to keep their company afloat. Wizard's I think in the next few years is going to go the way of Marvel comics in that nobody is going to buy their shit, they are going to lose money and only be kept afloat but their parent company Hasbro, and more people are just going to go indie. We all saw how well Wizard's handles competition by trying to destroy it like they did with TSR but OSR is too big of a beast for them and daddy Hasbro to slay. Looking forward to seeing the tears of their troon employees on Twatter and Tic Tok in the next few years assuming they don't 41% themselves during that timespan.

 

[JamesDixon]

Thac0 the clown

Reminds me of when Sir Tech added that Cleve easter egg in JA2.

You just know that Wizard's is ass mad and projecting big time as more and more people are going to OSR and I think deep down they know that their new audience of AGP child grooming gender blobs, man hating feminists and animal fucking fur fags aren't going to keep their company afloat. Wizard's I think in the next few years is going to go the way of Marvel comics in that nobody is going to buy their shit, they are going to lose money and only be kept afloat but their parent company Hasbro, and more people are just going to go indie. We all saw how well Wizard's handles competition by trying to destroy it like they did with TSR but OSR is too big of a beast for them and daddy Hasbro to slay. Looking forward to seeing the tears of their troon employees on Twatter and Tic Tok in the next few years assuming they don't 41% themselves during that timespan.

The hilarious thing is that game mechanics cannot be patented in the US. Copyright only extends to their specific expression of those mechanics, so anyone is free to use older versions of the D&D rules legally as a basis for a new set of rules. You don't need SRD for it either. The only thing you need to be careful of is their trademarks and that's it.

That's why Frank and I are writing our own version of AD&D 2E. We have a name picked out that uses the same abbreviation as AD&D and people that have heard it said they really liked it.

 

[RangerBoo]

Things are not looking too well for WoTC right now. The CEO of Hasbro who let them put all this inane shit they have been putting in their modules and allowed AGP child grooming troons to run the company has died today from cancer and apparently since the release of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything their books have been on a steep decline in sales. I get the feeling that when they release 5.5e that it is going to go as well as 4e which went off like a wet fart and they will either be forced to do course correction or sell to Tencent if the rumors are to be believed. Either way WoTC employees and their audience of child grooming gender freaks will be coping, seething and dilating in the foreseeable future.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

This is such a random thought but I've been wondering lately about summons in D&D. Bear in mind I've never played the game myself.

How exactly do they work? When a mage summons a monster or an animal - where does that creature come from? Does it just materialise? Does it come from another plane or do mages and druids literally pluck creatures from another part of the world to use them in fights?

Well the way it's presented is that for extra planar creatures they come from their home plane. For prime material plane they're teleported in.

Which is actually the same shit, since the planar creatures also have a world of their own and day-to-day habits like any other. The real question is why da fuck the creature helps the magician instead of getting shocked by the sudden change in environment or simply running away.

D&D is a game where the less you think about it, the better it becomes. Start pricking at the seams and it falls apart.

Not to mention the idea that you're locating and then teleporting a living being (either from another plane, or from a vast distance away), while mind controlling them (I'm assuming that's why it helps you). It's basically 3 spells at once and it comes to you at a low level, when just a spell to teleport the player to another area doesn't come until, what, level 5?

Then again, I guess it is supposed to be magic invented by an Netherese mage, so meh.