D&D 5E Discussion

[DraQ]

When did role-playing a goal other than magical items become LARPing? I don't think you know what the word means.

I'm using the Codexian definition of LARPing, not the more widely accepted one.

Then you're using it wrong.

Codexian definition of LARPing is basically "a (flavour) activity performed by the player but not recognized by the game".
It's an analogy - just like in an RL LARP session a person can be running around screaming "lightning bolt!" and then behaving as if they actually cast that lightning bolt, despite the reality not giving a fuck, a player can, for example walk around in Oblivion pretending to be a guard despite the game not recognizing that or otherwise giving a fuck.
The main difference is that in actual LARP you have other players that do react and that it generally doesn't call for euthanasia as the only humane option.

Since in any PnP context the game logic is driven by a living thinking human rather than a bunch of scripts hastily thrown together by an intern, and that this human (GM) can react appropriately to pretty much anything another human (player) can think up, any use of LARP (as defined by the Codex) in PnP context defaults to being dumb and wrong.

Now roll for anal circumference.

 

[Ulminati]

Don't forget your +2 modifier from your elastic sphincter feat.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I've determined that the best character in the game is a Hill Dwarf who starts 5 levels of Barbarian (Bear Totem) and finishes with 15 levels of Tempest Cleric. Take Guild Artisan Background and replace the Artisan Tool(that the Dwarf already gets) with Thieves Tools as per the rules. With point buy and the feats (str/con +1, str + 2, Great weapon, and Tough) you end up with a guy resistant to everything but psychic that does ~ 52 pts damage in melee a round and has access to 8th level priest spells. This allows him to nullify the moon druids powers as well with an antimagic field. He also has a good variety of spells and is badass as fuck. He does pretty much everything well, and his final stats are 18, 10, 18, 10, 14, 8. His Max HP is 255, as well and there is no point where this character stinks at his job or fails at roleplaying.

 

[Irenaeus]

Cool. I like Barbarian/Cleric Dwarfs. What weapon do you use?

 

[Melan]

And now that we have won Dungeons and Dragons, Fifth Edition, we can relax, open a new bottle of our favourite drink, and start playing it.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Cool. I like Barbarian/Cleric Dwarfs. What weapon do you use?

At first I was thinking Greataxe, but now I'm thinking Maul. I'd save polearms for a different build since I have trouble imagining Dwarves with them and there aren't enough feats here to capitalize.

Edit: Because the 20th level Moon Druid is considered the most overpowered and likely to get nerfed, I endeavored to create the characters most likely to to defeat him:

20th Lv Bard (either archetype)
20th Lv Monk (Open Palm)
5th Lv Barb(bear Totem)/ 15th Lv Tempest Cleric
5th Lv Fighter(Battlemaster)/ 15th Lv Transmuter Wizard
5th Lv Paladin(any)/ 15th Lv Abjurer Wizard
5th Lv Ranger(Hunter)/ 15th Lv Trickery Cleric

All 6 of these are superior to the Moon Druid but are less likely to get nerfed. Of course I'm just having fun with theorycraft. I don't honestly think it matters who is "better" and frankly there are hundreds of good character concepts tucked away in the 5ed PHB. Therefore, we all win. :D

 

[Night Goat]

Nerfing in a pnp game

Also: Moon Druids are cool at low levels, but I really doubt that the ability to turn into a CR 6 animal when you're level 18 is going to make much of a difference.

 

[LeStryfe79]

No, it's their ability at level 20 to Wild Shape infinitely as a bonus action. Unless I've read something wrong, this would make them almost impossible to kill through HP depletion. Also, CR's work differently in 5ed than they did in the past.

"Nerfing" ....If memory serves, the Druid was the first thing nerfed in 3ed.

 

[Alchemist]

How does nerfing in a PnP game work? I mean do they send ninjas out to your house to black out the old rules in your books and write in new ones?

Just keep using old rules if you like 'em, WotC's not going to stop you unless you're doing organized play.

 

[ProphetSword]

No, it's their ability at level 20 to Wild Shape infinitely as a bonus action. Unless I've read something wrong, this would make them almost impossible to kill through HP depletion. Also, CR's work differently in 5ed than they did in the past.

"Nerfing" ....If memory serves, the Druid was the first thing nerfed in 3ed.

Not sure where you get the idea this would make them impossible to kill. I'd like to see an explanation of how you think that works.

 

[J1M]

No, it's their ability at level 20 to Wild Shape infinitely as a bonus action. Unless I've read something wrong, this would make them almost impossible to kill through HP depletion. Also, CR's work differently in 5ed than they did in the past.

"Nerfing" ....If memory serves, the Druid was the first thing nerfed in 3ed.

Not sure where you get the idea this would make them impossible to kill. I'd like to see an explanation of how you think that works.

Shifting causes them to heal a lot of hit points.

 

[LeStryfe79]

"When you transform you assume the beast's Hit Points"

 

[Irenaeus]

Retarded rule.

 

[ProphetSword]

Shifting doesn't cause you to heal any hit points. Not sure where you're getting that. You can take a bonus action to regain 1d8 hit points by using a spell slot. That's fine, if the 20th level challenge your up against isn't doing more than 1d8 per round and you have enough spell slots left to do that. Honestly, there are probably better things you could do with those spell slots.

 

[LeStryfe79]

When you Wild Shape, you start with Max HP of your new form. This basically provides ~ 100 temp hp a round at high levels. Do you get it now?

 

[ProphetSword]

If hit points are your only concern, I could see where this could be a problem. By the time a character is at level 20, there are other ways for enemies to deal with them that don't always include just bashing them until they are dead. They aren't unstoppable machines, and there are a myriad of ways for a DM to make their lives hard if that's the goal.

 

[LeStryfe79]

If hit points are your only concern, I could see where this could be a problem. By the time a character is at level 20, there are other ways for enemies to deal with them that don't always include just bashing them until they are dead. They aren't unstoppable machines, and there are a myriad of ways for a DM to make their lives hard if that's the goal.

No shit? I never thought of that, ProphetSword.

How would you deal with them? I'm thinking antimagic field, power word kill, and quivering palm. Keep in mind this druid would have an extremely high wisdom and constitution save. You would be mistaken if you place the power of this druid to be par with the design philosophy of the game. I'm also not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

[ProphetSword]

I'm saying that if the DMs problem comes down to "I can't challenge this character because they can change shapes," then they are using an approach that revolves around just beating on them until they die. At 20th level, I would expect better encounters than that.

Utilizing terrain, like a lava field or a sea of ice, might limit what shapes can easily be taken by the druid. Introducing spells that can control the druid (dominate person or monster, for example); because no matter what their save bonus is, everyone still has a chance to fail a saving throw. Enforcing conditions on them can also slow down their capabilities. Creatures that can't act can't change shapes. Dropping a wall of force around them or having a dragon grapple them might also make them work a little harder to be useful in combat.

Even still, physical damage can still do the trick. If an entire party goes down and multiple creatures are beating on the druid, it might not matter that they can change shapes on a bonus action. Most beasts have a low armor class, so high level creatures won't miss often. If the druid found himself toe-to-toe with two Balors (as an example), on average that character would take something like 118 points a round...and that's just the average of their two physical attacks, not counting the fact that they would be setting the druid on fire. All that extra damage is going to bleed over to the druid. Add to that some creatures get to utilize Legendary Actions, and you can start to see that...yeah, the druid has an advantage in some ways...but he isn't immortal.

I'm not saying shape-change it isn't a powerful ability. I am saying that at level 20, combats should be more than just creatures bashing you to death until you die. There should be some creativity on the part of the DM to carry a game into what is essentially an epic tier. Because, this is a capstone ability that doesn't happen until 20th level. It's a fair bet that the druid won't be using it long. Most games will end soon after they get it. The DM should be prepared for this and let them have their moment of god-like glory before the final battles come and he really puts the screws to them.

 

[J1M]

Lava does 2d6 per round. (20d6 if fully immersed.) So even if they didn't decide to fly/jump over it, you will need more than "lava floor" as an answer.

 

[ProphetSword]

In real life, flowing lava puts out such immense heat it is hard to approach it, reaching a point of nearly being unbearable as it burns up to 2000 degrees fahrenheit. Coming into contact with it causes immediate 3rd degree burns. It also spews out toxic gases and can even cause explosions of boiling hot water when it comes into contact with other liquids. Hair and fabrics can catch fire and skin blisters.

2d6 my ass.

 

[LeStryfe79]

You've made some great points, Prophet, but I never said anything about the DM having problems with a Moon Druid.

 

[J1M]

In real life, flowing lava puts out such immense heat it is hard to approach it, reaching a point of nearly being unbearable as it burns up to 2000 degrees fahrenheit. Coming into contact with it causes immediate 3rd degree burns. It also spews out toxic gases and can even cause explosions of boiling hot water when it comes into contact with other liquids. Hair and fabrics can catch fire and skin blisters.

2d6 my ass.

In real life people can't turn into polar bears. What's your point?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

In real life people can't turn into polar bears. What's your point?

1. Shape-changing druids are a meaningful part of the setting. Harmless lava is not.

2. When your rules contain too much nonsensical/unintuitive crap, playing the game becomes a contest in the knowledge of rules. I guess some get their fun exactly from that.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Moon Druids can change into fire elementals too.

 

[Night Goat]

The vast majority of campaigns never make it to level 20, so I really don't think it's a big issue. Also, high-level spellcasters have plenty of save-or-lose spells they can use; few if any will target strength, dexterity, intelligence or charisma, but that's a problem that's more worth fixing. And if you're a level 20 character who can't cast spells, just fall on your sword because you've utterly failed at D&D.