D&D 5E Discussion

[Telengard]

Its an open secret that the Open License was considered a failure even before Pathfinder came along and made it an epic failure. Back when, if all of the 3rd party companies had stuck to making adventures and campaign books, then everything would have been fine. But instead, everyone made core books and splat books (which is where the money is), and thus they put themselves in direct competition with the official core and splat books while also crowding the marketplace, which undercut WotC profits. Hasbro don't play that game.

And after Pathfinder, where WotC essentially handed their system to Paizo and then helped build Paizo into their rival? Hasbro will never grant another fully Open License. In fear of making another rival, if for no other reason.

Essentially, the Open License is a corporate fiasco. Yes, it was very beneficial to the public, and it is something that a small company can do a lot with (as long as they don't get beaten by a rival doing it better or more cutthroat, since a rival can rise up at any time using the same system). But it is a disaster of epic proportions for a corporation looking to maintain control over their IP and the marketplace.

 

[Ulminati]

Depends on your point of view. Even with every rule posted online, I refuse to DM another session of Pathfinder ever again. In fact, I sold all of my Pathfinder books after six months of running 5e. Easy online access to rules for an overbloated game don't trump the option of playing a game that doesn't require me to constantly reference the rules to get through a round of combat.

So, plus or not, I wouldn't touch Pathfinder with a 10-foot pole at this point.

Huh? I've been playing and running pathfinder for years. We do a rules lookup maybe once every 2 or 3 sessions. Are the rules really that hard for you to get to grips with?

 

[Irenaeus]

Depends on your point of view. Even with every rule posted online, I refuse to DM another session of Pathfinder ever again. In fact, I sold all of my Pathfinder books after six months of running 5e. Easy online access to rules for an overbloated game don't trump the option of playing a game that doesn't require me to constantly reference the rules to get through a round of combat.

So, plus or not, I wouldn't touch Pathfinder with a 10-foot pole at this point.

Huh? I've been playing and running pathfinder for years. We do a rules lookup maybe once every 2 or 3 sessions. Are the rules really that hard for you to get to grips with?

Pathfinder is shit and will be buried under 5ed. Good luck playing your game with terrible art and ridiculous rules.

 

[ProphetSword]

Huh? I've been playing and running pathfinder for years. We do a rules lookup maybe once every 2 or 3 sessions. Are the rules really that hard for you to get to grips with?

Not if you're just playing with the core rules, not really. But once you start adding in all the bloat and you reach high level play, things keep popping up. Whether it's the obscure way some spell works in combination wtih some feat a player took, or an obscure rule about how to grapple while flying, it becomes pretty tedious.

The reason it's a pain is because it's necessary. There are rules for everything. And that's kind of the problem.

I have nothing against people who love to play Pathfinder. I'm was just saying that having the SRD to easily access rules doesn't make it better than 5e's easy resolution of actions. The DM should be able to decide the outcome versus searching through an encyclopedia of obscure rules.

 

[Ulminati]

See, what I do is make a ruling on the spot if in doubt and then I tell people to research it on their own before next session. They'll send me a bunch of urls and I can click them and confirm whether it's right or not. Minimal disruption. And since we all come from 3.xE, it's getting pretty rare for me to make those calls in Pathfinder. (Whereas our 5E test sessions have been a clusterfuck. In part because there isn't a SRD for us to look things up in).

 

[J1M]

Before you go patting Pathfinder on the back for that, you should realize that they only do that because the original OGL created by WotC requires them to do so. I doubt they would have posted every rule online otherwise.

This is not accurate. The OGL allows you to mark things as Product Identity. Additionally, it has no requirement that you post things online in an easily searchable format. It just allows anyone to do so once things are published under OGL.

 

[Havoc]

Shhh, let him believe that.

 

[ProphetSword]

See, what I do is make a ruling on the spot if in doubt and then I tell people to research it on their own before next session. They'll send me a bunch of urls and I can click them and confirm whether it's right or not. Minimal disruption. And since we all come from 3.xE, it's getting pretty rare for me to make those calls in Pathfinder. (Whereas our 5E test sessions have been a clusterfuck. In part because there isn't a SRD for us to look things up in).

That's what I do with 5e. Except we don't usually have to do a ton of research afterwards to determine if I was right or not. That's because there aren't rules for everything.

Sliding down a pole backwards while swinging your sword from the bladed end on a Tuesday night under the light of the full moon while having a broken nose...yeah, there's probably a rule for that in Pathfinder.

 

[ProphetSword]

This is not accurate. The OGL allows you to mark things as Product Identity. Additionally, it has no requirement that you post things online in an easily searchable format. It just allows anyone to do so once things are published under OGL.

Here's what Paizo says about it:
"The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is released under the Open Game License, meaning the core rules that drive the Pathfinder RPG system are available to anyone to use for free under the terms of the OGL. This compendium of rules, charts, and tables contains all of the open rules in the system, and is provided for the use of the community of gamers and publishers working with the system."

You're probably right that they weren't required to do this. I realize now that it's a common misconception. Point to you for that one.

 

[TigerKnee]

Wow, this topic caught on fire again just because a shitty RtWP game was announced.

 

[nikolokolus]

You kids and your new fangled game rules. Why back in my day there wasn't even an official Thief class in D&D ... everybody was a thief and they used ten foot poles and poured water on the floor to detect pit traps and used pry bars to open doors.

Honestly, everyone in this thread who talks about rulings over rules is playing the game the right way no matter what system you are using. Shitty referees are afraid to make a ruling or let their pissy little players use a rulebook like a bludgeon.

In any case, all of you faggots should be playing DCC RPG or Swords & Wizardry anyway.

 

[Irenaeus]

hear hear

 

[Keldryn]

I looked at Pathfinder after I found that I didn't like D&D 4e. It gave me a headache just looking at all of the rules. Core Pathfinder seemed more bloated than core D&D 3.5, and Pathfinder as it is today is probably even more bloated than D&D 3.5 with all of its supplements. The design of 3.x sounded fantastic in theory, and it was great if you approached it as a cleaned-up and more logical version of AD&D. If you set aside your AD&D-based paradigm -- or hadn't played it in the first place -- and played the game as the rules were written, it turned out to be a rather broken and unbalanced mess.

I went back to Basic/Expert D&D and AD&D, until the 5e playtest. Haven't been able to get a game together since the first 5e playtest (second child arriving in 2012 and all that), but I've got the set of books and I really like what I see. I'll have to reserve final judgement until I can get some significant play experience under my belt. But I'll never, ever go back to 3.x/Pathfinder or 4e.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Only real problem with 5ed is how nerfed everything is. We just halve the XP and everyone fights harder shit. Works pretty good. The campaign I'm in right now has very little healing magic but lots of rolls on the magic item tables. It's been fun as all get out. Probably the best games I've played since 1995. Fuck the haters.

Actually I just realized that my favorite PnP happened in 95, 05, and 15.

SWEET

 

[ProphetSword]

I looked at Pathfinder after I found that I didn't like D&D 4e. It gave me a headache just looking at all of the rules. Core Pathfinder seemed more bloated than core D&D 3.5, and Pathfinder as it is today is probably even more bloated than D&D 3.5 with all of its supplements. The design of 3.x sounded fantastic in theory, and it was great if you approached it as a cleaned-up and more logical version of AD&D. If you set aside your AD&D-based paradigm -- or hadn't played it in the first place -- and played the game as the rules were written, it turned out to be a rather broken and unbalanced mess.

Pathfinder, in particular, becomes a real mess once characters hit around 8th level.

My biggest gripe was with the skills. It's something 5e fixed.

Had a situation where the armored fighter and thief had jumping skills of around +16. Even armored, they could jump across a 10' pit with some ease. Meanwhile, the mage had a jump of about +2. So, the unarmored mage wouldn't even try to jump the pit. The players get so mired in the numbers that they don't bother to try once the DCs raise and once other players have much higher scores than they do. I lost count of the number of times a player said: "Yeah, I won't bother...I only got +3."

5e rectifies this by keeping the DCs low enough that everyone has a shot, whether they have an athletics skill +9 or -2. Everyone should be able to fucking jump. I'm sorry, but when you have gated DCs on things that anyone should be able to attempt, the game is broken.

 

[Caim]

5e rectifies this by keeping the DCs low enough that everyone has a shot, whether they have an athletics skill +9 or -2. Everyone should be able to fucking jump. I'm sorry, but when you have gated DCs on things that anyone should be able to attempt, the game is broken.

Strength-based DC 10 to swim. Have fun crossing water with Strength 8.

 

[tuluse]

Pathfinder, in particular, becomes a real mess once characters hit around 8th level.

My biggest gripe was with the skills. It's something 5e fixed.

Had a situation where the armored fighter and thief had jumping skills of around +16. Even armored, they could jump across a 10' pit with some ease. Meanwhile, the mage had a jump of about +2. So, the unarmored mage wouldn't even try to jump the pit. The players get so mired in the numbers that they don't bother to try once the DCs raise and once other players have much higher scores than they do. I lost count of the number of times a player said: "Yeah, I won't bother...I only got +3."

5e rectifies this by keeping the DCs low enough that everyone has a shot, whether they have an athletics skill +9 or -2. Everyone should be able to fucking jump. I'm sorry, but when you have gated DCs on things that anyone should be able to attempt, the game is broken.

Characters not doing the things they're bad at. I would call that roleplaying.

I don't know why a level 8+ wizard would ever need to attempt an unassisted jump though.

 

[Drakron]

Characters not doing the things they're bad at. I would call that roleplaying.

Rubbish, we all know how athletic wizards are unlike fighters that are walking cans.

Kinda fell inclined to post a video with someone wearing full plate doing cartwheels, I blame the English circlejerking about the Battle of Agincourt.

 

[ProphetSword]

I'm just making examples of how the skill system seemed to restrict players from doing things. No idea why. It wouldn't have restricted me, but then again, I came from AD&D where we didn't even have skill systems and it was common sense that someone could jump.

 

[tuluse]

I'm just making examples of how the skill system seemed to restrict players from doing things. No idea why. It wouldn't have restricted me, but then again, I came from AD&D where we didn't even have skill systems and it was common sense that someone could jump.

Have you tried doing a 10' long jump in real life?

 

[ProphetSword]

I'm just making examples of how the skill system seemed to restrict players from doing things. No idea why. It wouldn't have restricted me, but then again, I came from AD&D where we didn't even have skill systems and it was common sense that someone could jump.

Have you tried doing a 10' long jump in real life?

Misses the point entirely. Have you tried to disable a deadly trap or climb a sheer wall with no gear in real life? This is a game about heroes who can do things the average person can't do. I just find it silly that they could jump a 10' pit at level 2 because the DC was 12, but can't do it at level 12 because somehow the DC is now 20.

 

[tuluse]

Misses the point entirely. Have you tried to disable a deadly trap or climb a sheer wall with no gear in real life? This is a game about heroes who can do things the average person can't do. I just find it silly that they could jump a 10' pit at level 2 because the DC was 12, but can't do it at level 12 because somehow the DC is now 20.

Uhh, what ruleset are you using? In pathfinder, a 10' long jump is DC 10 and has nothing to do with player level.

If you want them to make the jump with no drama, why even call for a die roll or have the pit in the first place?

 

[ProphetSword]

Uhh, what ruleset are you using? In pathfinder, a 10' long jump is DC 10 and has nothing to do with player level.

If you want them to make the jump with no drama, why even call for a die roll or have the pit in the first place?

I was only using the jump skill as an example. I guess I should have picked something better. I'm talking about the skill system as a whole and how players begin to feel restricted by it, whether it's jump, climb, stealth or whatever. Maybe I'm the only one who ever encountered a player who feels this way when playing 3.5/Pathfinder, I dunno.

 

[Irenaeus]

I'm just making examples of how the skill system seemed to restrict players from doing things. No idea why. It wouldn't have restricted me, but then again, I came from AD&D where we didn't even have skill systems and it was common sense that someone could jump.

Have you tried doing a 10' long jump in real life?

I did in high school.

 

[Irenaeus]

Characters not doing the things they're bad at. I would call that roleplaying.

Rubbish, we all know how athletic wizards are unlike fighters that are walking cans.

Kinda fell inclined to post a video with someone wearing full plate doing cartwheels, I blame the English circlejerking about the Battle of Agincourt.

Also funny because the elite of British knights fought in Agincourt fully plated too. People forget that.

Henry V's armor wasn't called The Tower for nothing:

Don't believe KGB propaganda: