D&D 5E Discussion

[tuluse]

I was only using the jump skill as an example. I guess I should have picked something better. I'm talking about the skill system as a whole and how players begin to feel restricted by it

I think different characters being good at different things is a good thing.

If you want to be good at jumping, put points in jumping. If you want to be good at something else put points in that and let the people with jumping skill shine when it's time to jump

Pathfinder also cleaned up 3.0/3.5 skills a lot, so they're much more intuitive.

Now if you want to complain about knowledges being skills, I will agree that's stupid 100%.

 

[Havoc]

"5E fixed skills" lol, nope. It streamlined it. No more options. No more combinations. Choose from this set and that's it. Yes, there's less counting, but that's not anymore DnD.

 

[nikolokolus]

This is one area where I feel like skill based systems in post 3.x D&D sort of falls apart. An old house rule that's been floating around for decades and just works is the tried and true, roll-under-ability-score check.

If it's moderately difficult use 3d6, hard 4d6 and heroic 5d6. If it seems like the task is within the wheelhouse of the character based on their background or class, then assign the category as desired. If it's something that they get better at with experience then give them some kind of bonus based on level.

In this way if you have a high strength wizard and a high strength Fighter, The fighter might roll a 3d6 DEX check to stay in the saddle of a bucking mount, while an unskilled horseman wizard would use 4d6, but both would be just about equals when it comes to making a CON check to see how long they hold their breath. The bigger sin in my view, is that no matter what system you are playing with a lot of referees call for skill checks way too often - like they're terrified of making a ruling and being called "unfair."

 

[Night Goat]

If you want to use skills, 5e isn't the game for you. Whereas Pathfinder lists skill DCs for everything you're likely to attempt and modifiers for every situation you're likely to be in, 5e does the same thing it does for everything not directly related to combat - throws up its hands and tells the DM to just make something up.

 

[mastroego]

5e rectifies this by keeping the DCs low enough that everyone has a shot, whether they have an athletics skill +9 or -2. Everyone should be able to fucking jump. I'm sorry, but when you have gated DCs on things that anyone should be able to attempt, the game is broken.

Have you ever trained for something really hard?
Like a sport, or a musical instrument?
At least to reach the level where you can appreciate what incredible level of skill the true world masters managed to acquire?

Honestly I can't run for 10 minutes, for instance. Trained runners can do it for hours.
I used to be a somewhat decent metal drummer though, you'd be amazed what I could do (back then) with my hands and feet.

 

[Drakron]

I'm just making examples of how the skill system seemed to restrict players from doing things. No idea why. It wouldn't have restricted me, but then again, I came from AD&D where we didn't even have skill systems and it was common sense that someone could jump.

Wrong.

The skill system is what you can do, its then modified by gear and if a fighter can make that jump even when it have a equipment penalty is because he invested in such.

A spellcaster usually have other priorities on skills, athletic skills are neglected because spells allow to pretty much bypass such obstacles ... why putting skill points in jumping when there are spells that will make such skill check pointless? He can just levitate, fly or teleport, reason why Wizard cannot jump is because he have no reason to even try to begin with.

Fighters on the other hand knowing they tend to suffer heavy penalties to skill checks because of gear then to invest on such skills because they are penalized and they lack any spellcasting bypasses, if a fighter is fighting on a ship and he is tripped into falling in the water he pretty much fucked, its a save or drown so why the fuck would a fighter not put points in swimming since its likely to be became a issue at some point? unless we talking about some desert campain were swimming is mostly non-issue and other skills would take priority.

The thing is, you arent restricted ... you can try but you will fail because you suck at it or have penalties if its too difficult, you simply bog that down to a fucking equipment check thats fucking retarded, that IS restricting because investment in skill ALLOWS what is already AT A PENALTY to became possible because of investment on a skill.

 

[Night Goat]

Fighters should really have a class feature that reduces their armor penalty to skills, but this is a game made by and for nerds so the jocks don't get nice things

 

[Havoc]

There's no arcane spell failure. So get ready for that full plate wizard.

 

[Irenaeus]

Wizards can't use armor

 

[Havoc]

Take one level of fighter. Now you're proficient with armor.

 

[Irenaeus]

meet this sphere of annihilation

 

[Havoc]

Not my fault that this is a shitty system.

 

[ProphetSword]

People are still missing the point I was making about the skill system, which had nothing to do with how skills are used or how many points someone put into it. My point is that players began to feel restricted by it that they wouldn't even try.

10' pit. Player doesn't even attempt the jump in Pathfinder. In 5e, the player tries because they feel they have a better chance of success. That's what I'm talking about. I could give a shit less about which one is more accurate or which one someone likes better or why. I'm talking about players feeling as though they can at least attempt it versus just throwing up their hands in frustration.

If I am the only person in the whole world who saw this happen, I will concede the whole argument.

 

[Night Goat]

10' pit. Player doesn't even attempt the jump in Pathfinder. In 5e, the player tries because they feel they have a better chance of success. That's what I'm talking about. I could give a shit less about which one is more accurate or which one someone likes better or why. I'm talking about players feeling as though they can at least attempt it versus just throwing up their hands in frustration.

Have you even played Pathfinder?

In Pathfinder, you can open the book and see that jumping across a 10 foot pit has a DC of 10. Then you take into account your likelihood of making that DC and the consequences of failure, and make an informed decision regarding whether you should make the attempt. Most characters can just take 10 and have a guaranteed success.

5e doesn't list skill DCs, so your chances of jumping over that pit depend on how difficult the DM thinks the task is and how much he likes you.

 

[ProphetSword]

Nevermind. I concede. I used bad examples and you want to focus on that rather than what I'm trying to say. So, good work.

 

[Havoc]

Then give a better example?

 

[ProphetSword]

How about if I give no example and just explain the problem I ran into again. I want to see if I'm the only one who ran into this:

Sometimes skill challenges would come up during the game where players, regardless of the DC, wouldn't even bother to try because their skill level was much lower than other people in the party. For some skills, this was fine, but for basic things it was kind of a problem. They just didn't bother. They restricted themselves because of low numbers on their character sheet. Even though I knew that sometimes they had a chance to succeed, they just didn't try.

In AD&D, this wasn't a problem; because, players didn't have skill numbers to reference. They tried it because they knew they had always had a chance. In 5e, the players try things because they know the DCs aren't going to raise as they go up in level. I don't encounter the same restrictions with the players. The system doesn't make them fear these numbers as much when it comes to skills. As a result, I have characters in heavy armor occasionally attempting stealth checks and such, which these same people would never have tried in Pathfinder.

I find it is a symptom of players that started in the 3e era. Don't know why. And I just want to know if other people are seeing it. It is one of the reasons I stopped running Pathfinder.

 

[Havoc]

Shitty players?

 

[ProphetSword]

Shitty system? I think when you're conditioned to rely on those numbers, it breaks your ability to think outside of that box. For some players, anyway. I was able to break them of that, but not until we went to 5e.

 

[Havoc]

I don't think so. I have a player that tried Climbing during battle... with -2 (Halfling, 7 STR, no Climb ranks). The DC was only 5 and almost failed (buffs saved the roll). Before that he tried with DC 10 and succeed, without buffs.

So yeah... you have shitty players.

 

[Night Goat]

Sometimes skill challenges would come up during the game where players, regardless of the DC, wouldn't even bother to try because their skill level was much lower than other people in the party. For some skills, this was fine, but for basic things it was kind of a problem. They just didn't bother. They restricted themselves because of low numbers on their character sheet. Even though I knew that sometimes they had a chance to succeed, they just didn't try.

I don't see "different people are good at different things" as a problem. Having a low Acrobatics skill doesn't mean you can't make it over the pit. It means you may need to get creative with how you do it. I've been playing a low-level wizard with a -2 on Climb checks, and finding creative solutions to cliffs is part of the fun.

In 5e, the players try things because they know the DCs aren't going to raise as they go up in level.

Are you implying that DCs do go up with level in Pathfinder? Because that is just blatantly false.

 

[ProphetSword]

The DCs don't go up, but some of the challenges become harder and they often have higher DCs.

 

[Night Goat]

...such as?

 

[Havoc]

Trap DCs do go up with CR, but... when you hit about +33 (which is fucking easy, our halfling has +21 with only 8lvl of BARD), you disarm on 1 roll every one. And don't forget TAKE TEN, MOTHERFUCKER. So really, you need only +24.

 

[tuluse]

Trap DCs do go up with CR, but... when you hit about +33 (which is fucking easy, our halfling has +21 with only 8lvl of BARD), you disarm on 1 roll every one. And don't forget TAKE TEN, MOTHERFUCKER. So really, you need only +24.

Of course non-thieves can't even attempt to disarm traps in 2E ^_^

(all my ad&d experience is video games, I know you can try stuff like poke with a 10' pole in pnp but you can do that in 3E too)