D&D5e is coming.

[Captain Shrek]

No.

A good game IS balanced for play with clear characterization of difficulty levels. Take for example Serious sam. A serious shooter for serious people. Are you serious?

 

[GarfunkeL]

Balance between classes, is what I meant. I thought that was obvious, since that was harped about. And no, I'm not very serious person. Nowhere near as serious as Serious_Business.

 

[Havoc]

If I cared about balance, I wouldn't play PnP RPG's. Look at the Cleric or Druid in DnD. Walking powerhouses. How about the Tremere? Flame on and you instant win. You could even easily break the game, without a sweat. For example, I made a character on lvl 18. I think 3 Prestige Classes, 2 Core Classes. All books. 100 Diplomacy minus the +20 Diplomacy ring (and I could've made a +30 that time). That makes 80 Diplomacy + 1d20. Even the table will suck my dick, if I wanted it too. My friend made a shuriken build. Over 50 attacks and with our house rule (if you roll 20 three times - to hit, for critical and finally for instant kill) he killed a Great Wyrm Black Dragon in the first round. Balance is for pussies, who don't know shit.

 

[Jasede]

Who the flying fuck gives a damn about balance in P&P rule systems?
Class balance? Are you fucking kidding? That they have different strength at different levels is part of the damn game. Oh my god, so much ignorance in such a simple sentiment.

How can you-
No, no. No arguments or debate here. I call stupid when I see it, and this big mass of stupid is impossible to ignore. Shame on you.

 

[Jasede]

I can't get over how stupid this is.
If you don't know the pain of being a level 1 AD&D Wizard, pardon, Magic User, I really feel you missed out. But it's all so worth it.

Balance in CRPGs and P&P...
*shakes head*
What has become of you guys?

 

[MisterStone]

Yeah, everyone (by which I mean immature man-boy basement dweller nerds) thinks that sheer combat effectiveness is the measure of "class balance". As if a character in a PnP game run by a human DM has nothing to do besides kill shit. I blame DIablow and MMORPGs.

But J J I think everyone on the previous page was basically laughing at the idea of class balance in a PnP game, so why not unknot your dong and calm down?

 

[deuxhero]

"sheer combat effectiveness is the measure of "class balance""

No, that's exactly why some classes (fighter) are underpowered: They have nothing to do outside of combat (if you're lucky, you can break stuff with your Adamantite weapon, and anyone with such a weapon can do the same with just a little more time). Wizards don't JUST plop 5 save or dies on you in the first round of combat, but the also open locks (knock), disable traps (summon monster), get the party where they want (teleport, countless other movement spells), get the information you want (Charm person ect.) and are actually presentable in normal society (Prestidigitation). Note how every spell listed is core.

 

[kris]

"sheer combat effectiveness is the measure of "class balance""

No, that's exactly why some classes (fighter) are underpowered: They have nothing to do outside of combat (if you're lucky, you can break stuff with your Adamantite weapon, and anyone with such a weapon can do the same with just a little more time). Wizards don't JUST plop 5 save or dies on you in the first round of combat, but the also open locks (knock), disable traps (summon monster), get the party where they want (teleport, countless other movement spells), get the information you want (Charm person ect.) and are actually presentable in normal society (Prestidigitation). Note how every spell listed is core.

If system have no non-combat abilities then it is pretty bad to begin with.

That's actually very cool. Black for Dark Fantasy. White/Yellow for Heroic. Red for Tactical/HnS. Blue for Economic&Politics. Green for Bizzare.

Pink for gay romance.

 

[CappenVarra]

Grunker & Alex: didn't we have this thread already? I mean, discuss! away if it's fun for you... I would agree with Grunker that 3rd ed is much more sane and coherent, and thus better as a "roleplaying system" in the abstract (but that's almost forge-speak, best shunned in polite society) - and also agree with Alex that 2nd ed is better as a "D&D instance". 3rd ed is better as a game (but still worse at being a "roleplaying system" in the abstract than some other systems somebody is bound to mention in 3...2...1...), but 2nd ed is better at being "D&D". Obviously, the first claim is much more objective and quantifiable than the second. It's similar to saying a band's 3rd album is much better music (technically, from a perspective of a music teacher), while the 2nd album is much better at "being the band" (i.e. better at expressing the essence of the band and what makes them special, from a perspective of a fan). Since the second claim is pretty much subjective and meaningless to non-fans, discuss! happens. I guess 4th ed would then be the 4th album recorded by a completely new lineup, which focuses exclusively on 12+ minute solos and pretty much nothing else

It's kinda ironic how every discussion of D&D turns into edition wars, and then WoTC announces "one edition to rule them all"...

 

[Grunker]

but still worse at being a "roleplaying system"

The extend to which I can roleplay (i.e. LARP) has nothing to do with the system. In fact the two most "serious" roleplaying campaigns I'm a part of right now is a realistic middle-ages one and a Forgotten Realms one of all things. The first one is GURPS, the second is D&D3.5. Unless a system directly sets rules for roleplaying (which neither AD&D nor 3.5 does) it's safe to say roleplaying is not defined by the system.

By the way, you can tag people in posts? How do you do that?

 

[CappenVarra]

The extend to which I can roleplay (i.e. LARP) has nothing to do with the system. In fact the two most "serious" roleplaying campaigns I'm a part of right now is a realistic middle-ages one and a Forgotten Realms one of all things. The first one is GURPS, the second is D&D3.5. Unless a system directly sets rules for roleplaying (which neither AD&D nor 3.5 does) it's safe to say roleplaying is not defined by the system.

By the way, you can tag people in posts? How do you do that?

Just add "@" before the name - I actually did it accidentally, just wanted to make clear who I'm talking to, and the codex++ automatically turned it into links

Dunno, I like buying and reading different PnP rulebooks just to see how their systems work - that's why I compared it to music, because the separation of theory and practice is similar... And what I was talking about, not LARPing.

Anyways, I hope you mentioned your credentials from a prestigious gaming magazine in your application for the 5th edition playtest, we need that LP for greater justice

 

[Grunker]

You could only give your e-mails not say why you wanted to

But maybe I'll send them an e-mail saying "I'm from this and this site, we'd like a tester for 5th"

 

[GarfunkeL]

"sheer combat effectiveness is the measure of "class balance""

No, that's exactly why some classes (fighter) are underpowered: They have nothing to do outside of combat (if you're lucky, you can break stuff with your Adamantite weapon, and anyone with such a weapon can do the same with just a little more time). Wizards don't JUST plop 5 save or dies on you in the first round of combat, but the also open locks (knock), disable traps (summon monster), get the party where they want (teleport, countless other movement spells), get the information you want (Charm person ect.) and are actually presentable in normal society (Prestidigitation). Note how every spell listed is core.

And you have a bad DM. Why would a wizard memorize knock if the party has a rogue? That spell slot could be used for stinking cloud. My point is that there is no need for class balance in P&P game since it's the role of the DM to make adventures/campaigns that are custom tailored for the party. Then there's stuff for everyone to do - if nothing else the fighters get to swim, climb and perform feats of strength. Of course it helps that my players aren't ADHD-loot monkeys with the attention span of your typical console gamer (ie gnat fly).

 

[Grunker]

What GarfunkeL says is only true to some extend - for completely gamistic campaigns where the focus is only on combat and min/maxing you need a good structure to do it within. But 3.5 actually is that, because balance isn't just "everything is viable" it can just as easily be "a bunch of stuff is completely unviable, but there are a lot of different viable approaches too."

Especially with Book of Nine Swords, all kinds of approaches are viable. I play in a min/max campaign currently, and the party is:

Monk/Sorcerer/Swordsage/Jade phoenix - Melee attacker with high AC, medium BAB, gives up spellslots for extra damage
Crusader/Paladin - Melee attacker with good tanking and control capabilities, small amounts of healing
Pure sorcerer - AoE damage, crowd control
Druid - Main healer, insane melee damage
Archivist - Ranged damage, off-healing, removal of crowd control effects on party

And we're really missing a skill monkey. Most of the skill monkey classes in D&D are not top tier for combat, but holy crap we need the skills. Anyway my point is there are so many viable options in 3.5 that yelling "OMG WHY CAN'T I PLAY A PURE FIGHTER" is, well, misunderstood.

 

[deuxhero]

^ Which is why Rogue is ranked higher than Fighter on the tier list. Fairly meh in combat and shut down completely by common enemies, but has noticeable use outside of combat.

"Most of the skill monkey classes in D&D are not top tier for combat"

There are only 6 real skill monkeys (Disable Device as class skill+trap finding), plus Ranger with an ACF. Begiluer, Factotum and a few Ranger builds (Mutli class with Scout and take Swift Hunter feat, Wildshape as well as trapfinding) are all completely combat viable. Rogue, Spelltheif (though that is optimized around rather easy) and Scout are really the only ones with real problems, and Scout has Swift Hunter on its side, so hardly most. You can strech in Kobold domain cloistered cleric, but that is also combat viable.

^^"if nothing else the fighters get to swim, climb and perform feats of strengt"

Except for alter self into anything that can swim (also good luck doing it in heavy armor), Fly (the spell, though there are ways of AS into one, and again, heavy armor), and any kind of polymorph magic rending that all useless. These aren't rare situation spells the DM has to design a dungeon explicitly to show off either

"That spell slot could be used for stinking cloud"

Not without shenanigans. Knock=2 Stinking Cloud=3. Even if you need the slot for glitterdust, a wand is quite cheep.

"Especially with Book of Nine Swords"

True, but we're talking Fighter, not Warblade.

Unless a system directly sets rules for roleplaying (which neither AD&D nor 3.5 does) it's safe to say roleplaying is not defined by the system.

Except the 2 dozen or so classes with a code of conduct and the many many more with alignment limitations.

 

[Grunker]

Fighter is mostly useless except for dips - TRUE. Is this balanced? Well, I guess not, but 3.5 with only Player's is shit so that's no wonder.

There are plenty of ways to build a melee warrior akin to the fighter in 3.5. Just don't pick fighter and blindly trut down a single class-tree... If that's what you want then why the fuck are you playing 3.5 anyway? That system is only great when you use a gazillion supplements and build your own completely unique mix of fun stuff. And that's where it gets interesting, because it's actually a fairly balanced system DESPITE perhaps being the one with the most supplements, options, and system-exceptions.

Except the 2 dozen or so classes with a code of conduct and the many many more with alignment limitations.

...which are options within a huge system where there are plenty of choices that do not restrict your roleplaying if that's what you want.

I'll give you that alignments somewhat fits your bill, but it poses no problem when playing. And by the way, if you wanted to play gritty roleplaying in a "deep-personality"-kind-of-way why would you ever play 3.5 in the first place? o_O

 

[Nathair]

Reminds of a funny thing I read sometime from a NWN2 module designed around fighting complex multi classed builds vs each other. Someone went and built a rather dull, 'useless' single class fighter for that. Thing is it was actually rather effective, iirc via spamming disarm attempts and the like.

 

[Grunker]

The trip-fighter is a good build on most levels, yeah.

 

[GarfunkeL]

deuxhero,

yeah, my bad, forgot stinking cloud was moved to third level in 3rd edition. In any case, if the wizard player wastes his spell slots for knock/fly/alter self/strength and so on while the party has a perfectly fine fighter/ranger/rogues, he's not going to be in the party very long. And heavy armour can be taken off, duh.

My point isn't that wizards are somehow equal to fighters but this idea that all the other classes are meaningless because the wizard can do it all is simply min/maxers wet dream. Only a crap DM will allow the wizard to cast endlessly, buy wands endlessly, scribe scrolls endlessly and so on. A player like that isn't interested in team play in the first place. Always the "waah waah, game is unbalanced, wizards can do it all"-argument relies heavily on a sort of dumb&deaf DM who allows the players to get away with any- and everything.

In a CRPG, the player should have a party of six or eight, so it's again meaningless if the martial classes have nothing else to do but being dumb meatshields thus saving spells for tough situations because you have other characters to manage as well. This idea that all classes are "balanced" or "equal" leads us to herp-a-derp mechanics like D&D 4th edition and DA2. AWESUM BUTTON!

 

[Father Walker]

If system have no non-combat abilities then it is pretty bad to begin with.

Wrong.

 

[jcd]

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[deuxhero]

Only a crap DM will follow the spell slot and WBL rules?

"while the party has a perfectly fine fighter/ranger/rogues"

That's not the point. It's that "Fighter" is BORING because it has nothing to do outside of combat except things design explicitly for him but are easily replicated by spells any wizard with 16 intelligence should be using that aren't even high a level. Does the person playing a fighter enjoy "I charge" or "I take a five foot step and full attack him again" being all he does in or out of combat?

 

[Grunker]

deuxhero is completely right of course. So why ever play core when there are so many delicious supplements?

 

[Spectacle]

Or you could just play 4E with the PHB and DMG.

 

[Vicissitudes]

[Little offtopic] Guys does it make sense to start learning the Pathfinder (and I've never played any PnP RPG before) knowing my only option is going to be playing it online via rptools or something?