Editorial Damien Foletto talks about games at GameBanshee

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Who the hell is Puuk again?

Who are you people? Get out of my house!

 

[Volourn]

He has a point. SD does ahve rping elemetnes to it. Anyone who has played it, and says otherwise is flat out lying.

 

[Killzig]

Actually, it presents him wearing his gamer hat, not a dev hat.
Its his opinions on the CRPG genre. He isn't talking about what he's going to do on his next job.

Well that would mean a third hat that we've never formed an opinion on, your shock is still misplaced..

 

[Voss]

OK, I'll not interject technical corrections anymore. They seem to distract you from my main point.

Man treated one way at RPGcodex. New article. Man treated entirely different way.

It comes across as particularly bad since people are confusing 'Opinion: these games have RPG elements' with 'Contention: all games are RPGs', and then turning on the guy like an angry mob, with torches and pitchforks at the ready.

is this simple enough for you?

 

[Killzig]

you seem to be the one missing my point. Man brings us information, we thank him. Man is a silly game designer who writes silly articles about gaming, we flame him. It's entirely possible for man to be the same person. If you can process this then the reaction to this article should be absolutely natural to you.

 

[Calis]

Actually, it presents him wearing his gamer hat, not a dev hat.
Its his opinions on the CRPG genre. He isn't talking about what he's going to do on his next job.

No, he isn't. The article is still presented as a view from an industry insider. It's not random joe gamer who sends in an editorial to Banshee and gets it posted. That's how it gets promoted in Banshee's news, and the suggestion is clearly there that it is a view that matters because of industry experience.

Also, the kudos given to Puuk in the past were limited at best. I guess the point here is:
1) Puuk doesn't have the experience to make him a great CRPG designer. He's a newbie, and some would say it shows in this editorial. (I wouldn't, but then again, I haven't really read the thing yet.) Also, I'd like to state that lack of experience doesn't mean he shouldn't share his ideas; one of the ways to figure out whether or not you're on the right track is talking about what you're planning and getting feedback on it.
2) Puuk *does* have enough hands-on experience working at Interplay during the final days. He was kind enough to share the scoop. That's why the news post tone was positive back then.

Or, what Killzig said.

 

[Ausir]

Does this look like praising Puuk?
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1795

 

[Voss]

Oh, the reaction is obvious. When he's posting things people agreee with (Interplay is bad!), he's loved and respected. but when he doesn't share your opinions, he's a 'retard' and should be insulted.

Its the quick transition from agreement to insult with no pause for discussion/argument (You know, this is why you're wrong, and heres a list of reasons why) that struck me as wacky.

The fact that it is the same person is what makes it so puzzling. Different ideas/opinions = bad seems to be the only thing registering, regardless of anything thats gone before.

 

[Voss]

Does this look like praising Puuk?
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1795

Nope, it sounds like the criticism of a FO3 idea. With lots of references to JE Sawyer.
You're going to have to do better than a post almost 6 months old, where the only reference to Puuk is that he posted the idea being quoted by St. P.

 

[Killzig]

What you're missing is that his opinions on GAMES aren't any different than they were before. As Ausir just pointed out in that thread he was thoroughly ridiculed for his opinion on what should be done with FO3 (as a gamer and a dev) ...

 

[Voss]

Considering Puuk isn't talked about much (aside from being the one being quoted initially, all the discussion is about or directed at JE- read it and see), its not a very good example.

And in any case, even if he can be thrown in there, it justs adds a step to the cycle.
Ridicule --> Praise --> Ridicule again.
But it all seems to based solely on whether he happens to be stating something that matches up with people's opinions or not. And there isn't any thought or discussion involved.
Just:
Interplay bad? Hurray, Puuk!
Game related idea/opionion poster doesn't agree with? Puuk, you idiot!

Very shallow, very pointless.

 

[Killzig]

as is trying to explain anything to you.

 

[Volourn]

Voss, it's always been that way for the most part.

 

[Voss]

Kill; Giving up already?


Vol: I know. But it seems to have gotten a lot worse lately. Theres far fewer discussions (and very few interesting discussions), and more just a tendency to fling insults at anyone that doesn't share the same opinions.
And whats worse is that its repetitive. Same thing over and over

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Nope, it sounds like the criticism of a FO3 idea. With lots of references to JE Sawyer.
You're going to have to do better than a post almost 6 months old, where the only reference to Puuk is that he posted the idea being quoted by St. P.

There was a couple of lovely threads on the defunct BIS forum where I went toe-to-toe with Puuky. One was where he said Fallout would make an excellent first person shooter(Kind of ironic he lost his job to a Fallout third person shooter, ain't it?) and the other was where he was defending part of IWD2 where you could kill a townsperson and the gameplay would break. Everyone in the town would attack you - and even if you won the fight, you got trapped in the town forever with no way out.

In the IWD2 one, I got insulted by one of the BIS fanboys, so I insulted him back. Puuk thought I was talking about him, so he made the threat that if I insulted him again, he'd stop replying. My reply to that was, "I wasn't insulting you, I was insulting the guy who insulted me. However, I could care less if you reply again, you add nothing to this discussion anyway."

For more fun, you can refer to DAC for my news posts there or any of my forum posts involving him when it comes to design or game ideas. Likewise, you can come to IRC where we've been laughing about him going to Silver Style since that announcement about how he's one of the GREAT CRPG DESIGNERS.

 

[Voss]

Ooh, actual reasons/examples. Thanks Saint.
See how easy it is, Killzig?

I still find the disparity between agreement on opinions = praise and
different opinions = flame/insult amusing, though. Particularly when theres so little reason for it.

 

[Spazmo]

I don't see Voss' point here. When Puuk mentioned how FOBOS killed FO3, nobody went around loving Puuk. Most discussion revolved around how much IPLY sucks. We've never been big fans of Foletto around here.

 

[Sol Invictus]

While I somewhat agree that games like The Sims (well, specifically that game) may have content that in part represents the extreme end of the RPG scale, I just don’t agree with your assertion that we consider him a good game developer or even one that we have been giving a virtual blowjob to for the past couple of weeks. I really don’t see our commendation on his honesty over the entire Fallout 3 débâcle as any form of allusion to his prowess as a developer, to which he has yet to prove himself as.

Therefore, I honestly do not know what you are trying to get at here and you seem to be desperately grasping at straws in a contemptible attempt to prove yourself right. I have to be upfront with you and state clearly that I hold no disdain towards you, in general, but you’ve really dug yourself into a hole in this one. Just climb out of there and stop digging yourself further before you bury yourself.

 

[Voss]

I never said anyone considered him a good game developer. Not once. He dev skills, or lack of them, aren't on the table.

The virtual blowjob was a reference to the way many of forum goers (not necessarily the staff) here on the Codex were treating him as the man (not developer) of the hour in the FO3 aftermath. Then this article gets posted and this thread started to turn into 'bash the guy who thinks differently'. Not argue with his ideas or opinions. Just trash him, personally.

The contrast was striking. So I commented.


Besides: I like my hole. Its nice and warm, and there's plenty of space to genetically engineer an army of giant land squid that I can use to take over the world.

 

[Anonymous]

His opinion is different and it sucks.

Because something dips their toes into RPG-Land doesnt instantly make them RPG or RPG-Lite. Like someone said before, Quake would be an RPG by his terms, you have HP, an inventory (sorta), fight monsters and get loot and after running around and killing alot of monsters, you go to the next level.

All he's doing is being a dumbass trying to pass off half-assed "RPGs" as a-okay.

 

[Dan]

Maybe the tearful whiners of NMA's news crowd

Anyway, I don't think we ever said he was a great designer. Sure, he was a designer of Fallout 3 and I posted news about some questions he answered on the forums. But I don't remember NMA selliing out or something.

It's pretty simillar to the deal with Black Isle closing down. A lot of people in both DAC and NMA and maybe even here posted stuff like "OH NOEZ IT"S SO SAD".

But actually, who cares?

Sure, you might feel bad for those designers that got fired, that's a shame.
But BIS as a developing house? Not a very good one.
Fallout wasn't a BIS game. Fallout 2 was good, but that was because of Fallout 1. They made what? 1 good game (PS:T)?

 

[Voss]

having elements of an RPG != RPG

And that description of Quake? Sounds exactly like Wizardry I. Which some would argue is the beginning of CRPGs.

And he was saying more that having RPG elements in other games would eventually lead some players to RPGs. Not that it makes those games RPGs.

That idea is definitely debatable- I doubt it myself, people tend to want more of the same, and I haven't seen a chain of something like if you like Doom, you'll like Diablo, which will make you like Fallout.

And I won't even try to argue the 'if a game is fun (regardless of what kind of game it is), its by default ok (or even good) discussion. Too subjective for my blood.

 

[Spazmo]

Eh, that should read "new crowd" rather than "news crowd". I'm talking about the morons who infest your boards.

 

[Dan]

Well... uh... I guess?

And didn't we have some big debate about weather the sims is an RPG or RPG-esque or whatever a while back?

 

[Voss]

Yes. I know I mentioned it a while back.
I don't entirely remember the discussion though. I was comparing it to Deus Ex, Diablo or Wizardry. Saying it had more of the basic RPG elements than those did, in the sense of interaction with the game world. Whereas with the other games it was simply kill, loot, repeat.

Oh, thats right. I was contending that the what made an RPG an RPG was interaction with the world and NPCs, and consequences to actions, rather than stats.