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Game News Deathfire: Ruins of Nethermore New Screenshots and Feature List

Monty

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Why, because Guido or his employee just copy-pasted the "free press kit" they found on the web (which incidentally turned out to be Vlambeer's) to use as a template for their own press release, and somehow forgot to delete Vlambeer's name from it.

I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.
Amateur hour, and after mocking Vlambeer too. Humiliating.

(does double-take on Bee's new avatar)
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
Btw, from the official forum:

Guido Henkel » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:55 pm

The game is a bit of a mix. It is entirely grid-based and as you walk through the environment, things are happening in real time, which means, opponents will be moving around and other things and events will be triggered even if the player does nothing. Once you get entangled in combat, the encounter itself is executed in a turn-based style.

Valaraukar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:16 pm

I mean the first screenshots contain quite some stuff we don't consider as finished yet. In several places lighting, shadows, leveldesign and even some models are obviously work in progress and may improve in the near future.
Same goes for the Interface. Right now we are really busy pumping out content so we'll leave the finetuning for later when all the other puzzle pieces are in place.

So keep your input coming, we really appreciate the chance to polish this game together with you.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Lady_Error

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Codex sees pretty screenshots + rehashes of information we already know --> DOESN'T SUCK ANYMORE

My thoughts exactly...

I told you Guido knows what he is doing... except the PR stuff. And the name, maybe. Though when you know that it's the name of a powerful spell, it is pretty good actually.

And his wife cannot paint people...
 

Midair

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It's much easier to make a grid-based game. You don't have to worry about physics/collision, you don't have to worry about making areas look good from every single angle of view, etc.

Whatever engine they are using, it was probably designed for standard fps movement and collisions, so diverging from that means additional coding. Having multiple viewing angles is an intrinsic property of 3d assets. Do you really think it would suddenly look bad if you shifted the camera angle? The pointless grid is only there to keep up with the current oldskool trend.
 

tuluse

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Whatever engine they are using, it was probably designed for standard fps movement and collisions, so diverging from that means additional coding. Having multiple viewing angles is an intrinsic property of 3d assets. Do you really think it would suddenly look bad if you shifted the camera angle? The pointless grid is only there to keep up with the current oldskool trend.
:1/5:
 
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theSavant

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Midair:
I agree with you there. E.g. Might & Magic X: the environment, buildings etc. look natural, no matter which angle you look at it. So if they had chosen 360° movement like Wizardry everything would still look good - from any angle.

@Easier to implement grid-movement:
Not necessarily. I am not sure that the grid-based implementation is easier and let me explain why:

1) You have a headache defining grid-cell-sizes... because:
2) You must implement how many monsters can occupy a cell e.g. 1 medium monster 1 small monster OR 3 small monsters OR 1 large monster ?
3) - which means you are limited in your freedom to use creatures of different sizes
4) You must implement choppy and weird grid based movement for player and enemies

Opposed to that there are free high quality libraries for Unity (both MMX and Deathfire use this engine) which allow to throw a grid with much finer granularity onto the world. Once you recast this the grid automatically sees which areas are possessed by creatures and which not. A monster will just occupy an approximate amount of these small squares e.g. 20pieces, depending on the radius of the monster. Due to the finer granularity of the grid a smooth curved path can be calculated to the target and the calculation of this path as well as the occupied squares is already integrated into the library (yes, I know that, because I have used it). Now you would just need to check some points within this calculated path, if the radius of the monster still fits through this passage and voila you are done:

Advantages:
1) You don't need to care about monster sizes, or inner subdivisions of a grid cell. Full freedom for artists
2) You can use 360° movement using a common FPS controller for all creatures
3) Monsters can approach you from all sides - no such thing as maze-like movement

- and you could still use turn-based combat. Honestly I don't get why some people repeat over and over again that "grid movement is so much easier".
 

Crooked Bee

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...So, if it's essentially the same no matter the angle, why do you care so much about 360 degree movement, then?

Also, if I may be allowed to voice the player's perspective here, 360 degree movement is much more convenient for mapping -- and, as a consequence, for designing secrets, special encounters, special events, etc. Which is the main reason I highly prefer grid-based RPG to free movement; it makes dungeon design much better.
 

mondblut

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Hm, that looks nicer than I expected it to be.

I really miss GUI covering half the screen, though. Where are my fucking icons to click?
 
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theSavant

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Crooked Bee : if developers wanted they could design the same kind of secrets and encounters in non-grid-based systems too. It just doesn't happen often. Non-grid-based doesn't mean it must be a wide open empty Elder Scrolls World. I have seen more effort in secrets and encounters in games which were limited in level size and design, e.g. Lands of Lore 2 and 3, Dark Messiah. I also can't see lots of secrets in the MMX preview which is grid based as well.

But yes, you could say that dungeon like worlds are much more likely to contain more of these tweaks than worlds where lots of effort is spend on designing the environment.
 

Crooked Bee

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But yes, you could say that dungeon like worlds are much more likely to contain more of these tweaks than worlds where lots of effort is spend on designing the environment.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.

If you've got, say, a 16x16 grid, it's much easier to both design secrets/messages/special encounters/etc. and also to expect the player to actually come across those! In free-roaming games that can too often devolve into a pixel-hunt where you can't even be sure you've explored the map well enough! In the case of a grid though, you can just double-check every tile to be sure.
 

:Flash:

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It's much easier to make a grid-based game. You don't have to worry about physics/collision, you don't have to worry about making areas look good from every single angle of view, etc.

Whatever engine they are using, it was probably designed for standard fps movement and collisions, so diverging from that means additional coding. Having multiple viewing angles is an intrinsic property of 3d assets. Do you really think it would suddenly look bad if you shifted the camera angle? The pointless grid is only there to keep up with the current oldskool trend.
It's also easier and faster to design grid-based levels.
 

Crooked Bee

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It's also easier and faster to design grid-based levels.

Actually, I'm not sure it's faster -- if anything, a grid-based dungeon requires more work for it to come together in a meaningful way. It's easier to just do a large free movement level than to think through the place and role of every tile in a grid-based level.

Case in point: Amulets & Armor. I know few people have played it, but really, just watch the LP: http://lparchive.org/Amulets-Armor/ A lot of levels are just slapped together randomly with one goal in mind -- being large!! -- which is in a way easier with free movement, whereas a grid-based dungeon actually requires you to put thought in how you approach every grid if you want it to be exciting and memorable.
 

:Flash:

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It's also easier and faster to design grid-based levels.

Actually, I'm not sure it's faster -- if anything, a grid-based dungeon requires more work for it to come together in a meaningful way. It's easier to just do a large free movement level than to think through the place and role of every tile in a grid-based level.

Case in point: Amulets & Armor. I know few people have played it, but really, just watch the LP: http://lparchive.org/Amulets-Armor/ A lot of levels are just slapped together randomly with one goal in mind -- being large!! -- which is in a way easier with free movement, whereas a grid-based dungeon actually requires you to put thought in how you approach every grid if you want it to be exciting and memorable.
I meant it in a more technical manner than you understood it, I think.
In a grid-based environment, once you have designed the grid elements and ensured their edges fit together, you can quickly place one element next to the others all over the place.
In a non-grid-based environment you have to design a lot of things by hand (despite reusable assets)
For Ultima VI or VII or Divine Divinity (all grid-based on the design level, despite being free movement) I imagine it must be much faster creating a map of equal size than for an Infinity Engine game, where everything is designed in-situ.

Looking at the screenshot in the OP you can clearly see the grid layout. It's the classic "everything is surrounded by four pillars, sometimes with a wall in between, sometimes without" model. It's similar to Grimoire (or Wizardry VI) in that regard. And despite the variations (cracked walls, different ceiling height), you can place those elements next to each other very quickly, and if you do it right, they'll always fit. And I would think it is far easier than to design the levels of, say, Wizardry VIII.

That you still need invest time (and be good at it) to do it right, is another story.
 
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theSavant

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I am still interested how the outdoor locations will be implemented in Deathfire. Either in dungeon-mode or similar to MMX?
 

Crooked Bee

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Hmm, we should maybe do an interview with Guido, really. I'll see if I have the time to next week (and whether Gudio himself agrees to doing it :P).
 

Midair

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If you've got, say, a 16x16 grid, it's much easier to both design secrets/messages/special encounters/etc. and also to expect the player to actually come across those! In free-roaming games that can too often devolve into a pixel-hunt where you can't even be sure you've explored the map well enough! In the case of a grid though, you can just double-check every tile to be sure.

I do not think free movement hinders dungeon design. This is just about being retro and nostalgic rather than quality design.

It is hard to make a fair comparison b/w grid-based and free-movement blobbers, e.g. Wizardry VII vs. VIII, because titles like the latter number very few and are affected by limitations of 3d engines, modeling tools, and low resolutions of the time. If the 2d blobber developers had today's tech back then, I don't think there can be any question that Wizardry VI or MMIII would have been free-movement games with the same high dungeon-design standards. In another genre, Quake's gridless level design obviously outshines wolfenstein 3d, unless you just gotta have the sweet nostalgia of double checking every tile.

:Flash: I'm not moaning about reusing wall assets, even in a grid layout. I just don't get why you would limit movement to 90 degree turns. I can only think of one other game, Grimrock, that does this in a 3d setting, and at least with Grimrock the grid serves a purpose in combat.
 
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Excidium

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It's not a matter of tech.

Grid just abstracts first-person blob exploration better, makes mapping more intuitive and also puts the movement rate on your control. When done right.
 

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