"Deciding who is wrong and who is right"

[JarlFrank]

Basically shipping a plot rather than a story.

Yes. How the story actually plays out will be determined by the player and the choices he makes.

Traditional linear sequential storytelling is actually detrimental to PC RPGs, because it's a highly interactive and reactive genre and highly involved and lengthy stories hold it back.

You can still have traditional story structure (inciting incident, rising tension, twist, ending) within smaller questlines of 2-3 quests, rather than chaining up these lengthy questlines with 10+ quests, which is what the majority of games are still doing... and where the majority of games are putting their C&C.

It's always about faction questlines or an ending of the main quest, blah blah blah.
Give me a village with 6 different quests that all have the potential to affect the fate of the village and are all optional, instead. Depening on which ones - or how many - the player tackles, and how he solves the ones he tackles, the fate of the village will be different. And each of these quests is a standalone rather than a long questline with 10+ individual quests. Much easier to develop meaningful C&C and even have the result of one quest influence the way another quest may play out when each quest is a standalone, rather than a long multi-step questline.

 

[Sigourn]

Never modded the game other than the UI and I think the shooting and exploration are just fine. Granted on the shooting front that could be because I always play a sniper type character so I'm not flailing about in close quarters, but popping moles with the cowboy rifle works just fine. World looks like a barren desert hell hole but it's supposed to.

New Vegas' shooting is garbage. It's inherited straight from Fallout 3, which was garbage too at the time it was released. The world looking barren isn't the same as the graphics looking like shit.

 

[Lurker47]

Fallout NV: House Always Wins / No Gods, No Masters / Pro-NCR Ending, all work in one way or another.

You left out Legion because of what exactly?

Caesar Legion are batshit insane and the moment Caesar is dead they will be nothing but a band of organized raiders.

Extreme doubt. Even though Lanius is next in line for ruling, you still have people like Vulpes. One of the biggest problems that the Legion faces is expanding its influence vs. its very strict moral code (similar to the NCR in a sense)- Vulpes and Lanius are basically butting heads over this.

While it's fair to assume Lanius' rule would be incompetent and short-sighted, I doubt the utilitarian aspects of the Legion will be completely lost nor will its structure just completely disintegrate.

When people like Marcus talk about the Legion following "Caesar and not his ideals", it's about the culture of the Legion. The cultural values are likely to fall apart before the government after Caesar's death. This is basically the exact opposite of what Caesar would want but it's what he's essentially set up with things like the frumentarii and perhaps even his own transparency with his trusted men about his real values- as he constantly makes exceptions to his own rules (for example, sparing Arcade while Lanius would just crucify him.)

 

[DalekFlay]

New Vegas' shooting is garbage. It's inherited straight from Fallout 3, which was garbage too at the time it was released.

Tell me you're not talking about stat-influenced accuracy.

 

[Crichton]

Fallout NV: House Always Wins / No Gods, No Masters / Pro-NCR Ending, all work in one way or another.

You left out Legion because of what exactly?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar's_Legion

The Legion is first and foremost a slave army, the sole owner of which is Caesar. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and merges them into his forces. There is no other tribe than the Legion itself.

As a slave army, the Legion maintains a very strict hierarchy or division of roles. All able-bodied males become slave soldiers with a singular purpose: to fight for Caesar until they fall in battle. This reason for being is imprinted into each legionary during his reconditioning, or, if one was born into the Legion, upbringing and training. Legionaries become unconditionally devoted to their leader, living to fight. Contrary to expectations, experience and veterancy has no bearing on one's position in the Legion. While some may receive better equipment and more dangerous tasks to fulfill, at the end of the day, all soldiers remain slaves, disposable human tools that are discarded the moment they stop fulfilling their purpose.[1]

Women are given the role of, essentially, support corps. Caesar specifically forbids women from fighting, instead using them as caretakers, healers, midwives and breeders to support the Legion's continuous campaign of expansion. Almost all members of the Legion express condescending and misogynistic opinions of women and their non-combat roles. While the portrayal of female slaves in Fallout: New Vegas follows standard stereotypes, it is important to reiterate that both females and males in the Legion are fully subjugated by Caesar - though women have the distinction of being considered 'sub-human' instead of merely slaves, due to the Legion's perception of their sex.

Slaves are one step above Captures and consist of captured humans unfit for combat duty as a Legionary. They are expected to adhere to the virtues of a slave (Honestas, Industria, Prudentia - honesty, industry and prudence) and follow their master's orders without questions. They are given a new name and wear rags with a light red X painted over the chest. During the Capture stage, slaves seem to be forced to wear slave collars. Later, when they have been "broken in" and transported deeper into Legion territory, the collars are removed as seen with the slaves at Fortification Hill. Children of slaves are taken from their parents after birth and placed in the care of priestesses, who raise them in keeping with Caesar's doctrine. Physically fit males are chosen to serve as Legionaries.

Even the most fucked up real societies look like paradise compared to this; the Soviet Union might have forced you to work in a shitty factory, but it didn't use you as human cannon fodder unless it was under attack and it didn't steal your children. It's basically like someone tried to make a sci-fi equivalent to LotR orcs; an evil society so debased that no one could possibly have any sympathy with it. But you get an option to join this abomination because ...... balance?



Nice work Sawyer! How about taking that dev time and giving the player the option to carve out a BoS city-state? or move the NCR in different directions? or lead a coup in the Legion and move it in a sane direction? or basically anything besides 'join the King of Shadows'?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Extreme doubt. Even though Lanius is next in line for ruling, you still have people like Vulpes. One of the biggest problems that the Legion faces is expanding its influence vs. its very strict moral code (similar to the NCR in a sense)- Vulpes and Lanius are basically butting heads over this.

While it's fair to assume Lanius' rule would be incompetent and short-sighted, I doubt the utilitarian aspects of the Legion will be completely lost nor will its structure just completely disintegrate.

When people like Marcus talk about the Legion following "Caesar and not his ideals", it's about the culture of the Legion. The cultural values are likely to fall apart before the government after Caesar's death. This is basically the exact opposite of what Caesar would want but it's what he's essentially set up with things like the frumentarii and perhaps even his own transparency with his trusted men about his real values- as he constantly makes exceptions to his own rules (for example, sparing Arcade while Lanius would just crucify him.)

If the Courier doesn't successfully perform brain surgery on Caesar, his migraines will worsen as the tumor grows and he won't have long to live. Despite his plans to turn New Vegas into the Legion's capital and to establish the Legion as the new Roman Empire, he won't have time to implement them. After his death, Lanius will attempt to seize control, but given the sprawling nature of the Legion's territory and the lack of any established succession, parts of the Legion will break away as local commanders declare themselves rulers. Fighting between parts of the Legion will ensue, and this will only hasten its further disintegration. The end results will be the emergence of a new series of Legion-derived tribes, undoing all of Caesar's work.

Even if the Courier does provide medical treatment for Caesar and helps him achieve victory in the Mojave, Caesar is hopelessly over-optimistic about the potential for transforming the Legion, and he will still have only so many years in which to attempt it. The conquest of the New California Republic would preoccupy the Legion for years to come, and Caesar wouldn't be able to even initiate substantial reforms until the completion of this climactic war.

 

[Lurker47]

in the Legion and move it in a sane direction

But that's the entire point of the Legion.

Also, the slave-state largely applies to tribals or those who join by force. There's a trader in the Fort who's just a random guy that goes "hey at least the roads are safe!". A large portion of the "slaves" are essentially just random people living their lives in Legion territory ("slave" being little duty but also few rights)- there is also, a draft. Many societies have a draft or have had a draft in fairly recent history.

I've always hated the claims that the Legion were comically evil- especially in light of some of the NCR's nuances.

The conquest of the New California Republic would preoccupy the Legion for years to come, and Caesar wouldn't be able to even initiate substantial reforms until the completion of this climactic war.

After you push the NCR out of Hoover Dam, what will be keeping their Nevada division afloat? The Legion would have far more territory by the end of the Mojave conquest. Everything considered, Caesar's plans are in the realm of possibility though it's ultimately up in the air if they would succeed or not.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I've always hated the claims that the Legion were comically evil- especially in light of some of the NCR's nuances.

Caesar's Legion is opposed to advanced technology, makes widespread use of slavery, commits mass torture and murder of civilians, prohibits gambling, prohibits alcohol and all other drugs, prohibits prostitution, is overtly misogynist, and is entirely militarized. It requires a very particular kind of Courier to prefer the Legion over the other available options.

After you push the NCR out of Hoover Dam, what will be keeping their Nevada division afloat? The Legion would have far more territory by the end of the Mojave conquest. Everything considered, Caesar's plans are in the realm of possibility though it's ultimately up in the air if they would succeed or not.

Following the Legion's victory over the NCR at Hoover Dam, the entire Mojave region swiftly falls to the Legion as described in the game's ending slides. The war would then be pursued into California itself, and the conquest of the New California Republic would be a longer campaign than those previously endured by the Legion, which had been defeating scattered tribes in areas that were relatively sparsely-populated.

 

[RNGsus]

House and Fuck'em All were good. House had vision though, so if I ever replay TES with guns and fallout again, I'd set him up as king instead of always beating him with a 9 iron. Do what's best for humanity for once.

 

[Roguey]

The point of role playing is role playing, you neurodivergents.

 

[Sigourn]

New Vegas' shooting is garbage. It's inherited straight from Fallout 3, which was garbage too at the time it was released.

Tell me you're not talking about stat-influenced accuracy.

No, I'm talking about how bland it feels. You may as well be shooting magic spells.

 

[Lurker47]

It requires a very particular kind of Courier to prefer the Legion over the other available options

It does. But comically evil? That just seems disrespectful.

The war would then be pursued into California itself, and the conquest of the New California Republic would be a longer campaign than those previously endured by the Legion, which had been defeating scattered tribes in areas that were relatively sparsely-populated.

But at the same time, the Legion would have a massive advantage in numbers and social cohesion. I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt the Legion but they definitely wouldn't die out before the war had ended.

 

[DalekFlay]

Caesar's Legion is opposed to advanced technology, makes widespread use of slavery, commits mass torture and murder of civilians, prohibits gambling, prohibits alcohol and all other drugs, prohibits prostitution, is overtly misogynist, and is entirely militarized. It requires a very particular kind of Courier to prefer the Legion over the other available options.

While I think we all agree it seems insane to join them, and even Sawyer admits they fucked that up, it probably WOULD make more sense if you lived in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the act of walking to the local store was as likely to get you killed as not. It's the good old "order versus chaos" thing (or in this case I guess order versus attempted democratic order drowning in lack of supplies and bureaucracy) but they didn't have the money/time to sell it. Still, if you use your imagination a bit and focus on the rare comments we do have about the Legion lands behind the army being peaceful and clean then you can just about squint and have it make sense. Kinda. Okay not really, but you can get close. Maybe.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Caesar's Legion is opposed to advanced technology, makes widespread use of slavery, commits mass torture and murder of civilians, prohibits gambling, prohibits alcohol and all other drugs, prohibits prostitution, is overtly misogynist, and is entirely militarized. It requires a very particular kind of Courier to prefer the Legion over the other available options.

While I think we all agree it seems insane to join them, and even Sawyer admits they fucked that up, it probably WOULD make more sense if you lived in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the act of walking to the local store was as likely to get you killed as not. It's the good old "order versus chaos" thing (or in this case I guess order versus attempted democratic order drowning in lack of supplies and bureaucracy) but they didn't have the money/time to sell it. Still, if you use your imagination a bit and focus on the rare comments we do have about the Legion lands behind the army being peaceful and clean then you can just about squint and have it make sense. Kinda. Okay not really, but you can get close. Maybe.

I sincerely wonder who exactly it was that signed off on making the Legion what they ended up being as opposed to something a bit more gray in nature. They leave enough breadcrumbs around for people to realize that House is a gray option (Freeside's existence and ongoing state mostly discerned through observation and conversations with the Followers, and House's apparent overconfidence in his hold on the Families), Wild Card is a gray option (mostly discerned through ending slides), NCR is a gray option (though the game doesn't really go out of its way to point most of it out - see my earlier post re: NCR, I suspect strong NCR/WC favoritism somewhere at Obsidian during NV's development), and then Legion's damn near black and you have to go out of your way to see the gray flecks in the paintjob they did.

I'm not saying games should never have an "evil" option, but it feels like they really went out of their way to do that with the Legion and Sawyer going "oops" after the fact makes me wonder if he had his fingers crossed behind his back while he was saying that (esp. given how Arcade was apparently more or less his mouthpiece on the situation in New Vegas).

As for the Legion's chances of success in the end, it's not easy to turn fighting men into civilians, and Caesar is not getting any younger even if you excise his tumor. Eschewing modern medicine (except for Caesar, of course, and even after he explains why he has the Autodoc and chooses to bestow it upon favored people it's still dumb) is dumb, the misogyny seems like a retarded afterthought just to make sure the player knows the Legion are BAD PEOPLE, the prohibition of hookers, blackjack, and drugs is strangely puritanical for something supposedly modeled on the Romans but if you remove the "lol romans" from the equation it could be worked into something that made more sense I guess as an antithesis to Vegas (since apparently someone at Obsidian thought Hegelian dialectics were neat? fucking silly). But the die was already cast for CL with Van Buren I guess? I honestly don't know, I've only ever read snippets about VB and the Legion in VB.

House and Fuck'em All were good. House had vision though, so if I ever replay TES with guns and fallout again, I'd set him up as king instead of always beating him with a 9 iron. Do what's best for humanity for once.

House is probably the best overall option, but he needed someone like Courier Six earlier to come along and smooth things out with the Families (and perhaps be a go-between for him and Freeside to keep things smooth there), and the fact that he DIDN'T appoint someone earlier to catch his errors indicates he's a bit too cocky for his own (and New Vegas') good. Benny's not wrong, he's just a backstabbing fink.

 

[Neanderthal]

House, Yesman, and NCR are all native and known factions in Mojave, Legion are outsiders invading the area. Don't think they're gonna get much of a good rep from folk who might be crucified or enslaved by em in coming war.

 

[Cross]

If the goal was for Caesar's Legion to be a justifiable, morally ambiguous alternative to the other factions, they should have incorporated some of their backstory from their original concept in Van Buren, which paints them in a more sympathetic light:

The most powerful tribals in the American Southwest are the feared Daughters of Hecate and their slave tribe, the Vipers. Led by an aging, possibly insane woman of fearsome presence, the masked Daughters of Hecate collect tribute from almost all other tribes in the regions they control. Failure to obey the mandates of Hecate often results in crop failure, poor hunting, disease, and barren wombs. The Daughters of Hecate reserve a special hatred for Caesar's Legion because the Legion rose to power during the time of the Twisted Hair; a tribe that regularly raided other tribes for supplies and slaves. The Legion taught the other tribes to fight back and soon the Twisted Hair tribe fled. The Legion then set upon the Twisted Hair tribe, almost utterly destroying it apart from one woman, who managed to escape; in time, she became the Goddess Hecate, eponymous leader of the Daughters of Hecate.

In their the test pen-and-paper campaign run by Chris Avellone, the first fringe unit of Caesar’s Legion was planned to appear as a hostile enemy in the Circle Junction Train Yards. Furthermore, the Daughters of Hecate and Caesar’s Legion was thought as the female and male polar opposites, which was supposed to allow the player, depending on gender, to rule either one and use them to build an army, much like in the movie The Postman.

Evem Sawyer seemed to possess enough self-awareness back then to jokingly consider that he might have screwed up:

One of the few big things I did on Van Buren was taking an organization Chris invented and changing it (perhaps mangling it in the process) into a neo-Roman slavers' legion with all the weird titles, makeshift costumes, and traditions of that group.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

House, Yesman, and NCR are all native and known factions in Mojave, Legion are outsiders invading the area. Don't think they're gonna get much of a good rep from folk who might be crucified or enslaved by em in coming war.

NCR is not native to most of the Mojave IIRC, they just got there sooner than the Legion and made a tenuous truce with House and New Vegas. They are invaders, and they're quickly wearing out any welcome they ever had as you discover through dialogues in the quest GI Blues, in Primm, and so on and so forth.

I'm of the mind that the best possible thing that could happen to the NCR as of the events that transpire in FNV is being sent the fuck packing by a Securitron army. The political coup that would probably result from Oliver's failure (and by proxy Kimball's failure) to take the dam in totality and New Vegas as well would be needed to uproot the stagnant, corrupt bureaucracy and give NCR citizens a chance to unfuck things (in addition to getting rid of one of the most incompetent pieces of shit ever re: Oliver).

 

[RNGsus]

Too on the nose, not really developing them beyond that.

 

[DalekFlay]

If it were real life I'd be NCR all the way, sorry. Flawed as shit democracy is better than dictatorship or Legion any day.

 

[RNGsus]

The Legion was flawed democracy.

If it was rl, face it, you're choosing wild card.

 

[Neanderthal]

House, Yesman, and NCR are all native and known factions in Mojave, Legion are outsiders invading the area. Don't think they're gonna get much of a good rep from folk who might be crucified or enslaved by em in coming war.

NCR is not native to most of the Mojave IIRC, they just got there sooner than the Legion and made a tenuous truce with House and New Vegas. They are invaders, and they're quickly wearing out any welcome they ever had as you discover through dialogues in the quest GI Blues, in Primm, and so on and so forth.

I'm of the mind that the best possible thing that could happen to the NCR as of the events that transpire in FNV is being sent the fuck packing by a Securitron army. The political coup that would probably result from Oliver's failure (and by proxy Kimball's failure) to take the dam in totality and New Vegas as well would be needed to uproot the stagnant, corrupt bureaucracy and give NCR citizens a chance to unfuck things (in addition to getting rid of one of the most incompetent pieces of shit ever re: Oliver).

 

[DalekFlay]

The Legion was flawed democracy.

If it was rl, face it, you're choosing wild card.

Dude I don't even want a fucking management position at my job.

 

[RNGsus]

The Legion was flawed democracy.

If it was rl, face it, you're choosing wild card.

Dude I don't even want a fucking management position at my job.

That's what yor boi was for:

Man and Machine.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

House, Yesman, and NCR are all native and known factions in Mojave, Legion are outsiders invading the area. Don't think they're gonna get much of a good rep from folk who might be crucified or enslaved by em in coming war.

NCR is not native to most of the Mojave IIRC, they just got there sooner than the Legion and made a tenuous truce with House and New Vegas. They are invaders, and they're quickly wearing out any welcome they ever had as you discover through dialogues in the quest GI Blues, in Primm, and so on and so forth.

I'm of the mind that the best possible thing that could happen to the NCR as of the events that transpire in FNV is being sent the fuck packing by a Securitron army. The political coup that would probably result from Oliver's failure (and by proxy Kimball's failure) to take the dam in totality and New Vegas as well would be needed to uproot the stagnant, corrupt bureaucracy and give NCR citizens a chance to unfuck things (in addition to getting rid of one of the most incompetent pieces of shit ever re: Oliver).

Oh, right, the "and" kind of threw me off.

The Legion was flawed democracy.

If it was rl, face it, you're choosing wild card.

Dude I don't even want a fucking management position at my job.

That's what yor boi was for:

Man and Machine.

The name "Yes Man" doesn't inspire much confidence in his ability to tell me when I'm fucking up, though, and if House is any indication EVERYONE needs someone to remind them when they're dropping the ball

 

[RNGsus]

Now you're just ruminating.