Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

[Grampy_Bone]

However, the developers have given the player the option to configure enemy state to reflect the pnp stats.

There's no slider that removes the rogue levels from all the goblins or makes flanking work like it's supposed to. You have to get mods for that.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It's fine to like the game as a ramped-up hardcore challenge. But every other post is "it's perfectly PnP balanced" followed by "I like how unbalanced it is."

As a Soviet, I learned the fine art of doublethink in my cradle, so this looks natural to me. The game is perfectly balanced for PnP, and we like it for how unbalanced it is.

 

[Daidre]

Kobold Commando for example

Is level 1 creature with 9 DEX but still has 15 THAC0 and 5 AC, what should be kinda impossible. Shoots fire arrows in original game for 1d6 missle + 1d6 fire on failed save. Seems to be pattern among non-humanoid enemies though - lot of them have 9 in all stats as placeholder with STR as an only exception on ogres and alike.

Hey guess what? I made it through all the fights up to Season of Bloom before I lost due to the kingdom management game.

Yes, sucking at kingdom management is a part of sucking at P:K in general. And no, it is not scripted to fall into anarchy, could be Serene from Chapter 2 onward with only couple of adviser-upgrade events sending it back to normal.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I want more enemies like Lichs from Baldur's Gate 2

Interestingly, the original demi-lich was designed by Gary Gygax himself for the now infamous Tomb of Horrors, a dungeon he designed for solo play by one of his longtime players who had leveled up to the point of being nearly invincible. He intended the demi-lich to be nigh undefeatable as a kind of troll/gimmick boss. Gygax was well known as an adversarial DM, as opposed to Arneson who believed in more collaborative play. Guess which one I agree with more?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Yes, sucking at kingdom management is a part of sucking at P:K in general.

At launch everyone fell into anarchy at the beginning before you can even make any choices.

Well, if a gameplay mechanic is so unbalanced and provides so little feedback they have to patch out the ability to fail, I consider that bad design.

 

[Pink Eye]

I want more enemies like Lichs from Baldur's Gate 2

Interestingly, the original demi-lich was designed by Gary Gygax himself for the now infamous Tomb of Horrors, a dungeon he designed for solo play by one of his longtime players who had leveled up to the point of being nearly invincible. He intended the demi-lich to be nigh undefeatable as a kind of troll/gimmick boss. Gygax was well known as an adversarial DM, as opposed to Arneson who believed in more collaborative play. Guess which one I agree with more?

Arneson? The more collaborative one? But Gygax sounds more fun to play against in a video game.

 

[Shadenuat]

- BG 1, first wolf encountered could 1 shot MC. Worse, every kobold with the bow could one-shot MC with lucky crit.
- BG 2 - any mage could suddenly one-spell kill MC on failed save. Liches in tavern back-rooms too.

so can you one shot wolf. it's not a hard counter. whats your point?

you can actually escape from Liches in back room taverns, which is part of the degenerate tactic, but surely you know this.

Yes, sucking at kingdom management is a part of sucking at P:K in general. And no, it is not scripted to fall into anarchy, could be Serene from Chapter 2 onward with only couple of adviser-upgrade events sending it back to normal.

you don't lose much at not sucking though, since popping another shrine-herbahat-brewery-tpcircle is degenerate routine and adds nothing to the game.

but that part is actually from original module, and looks like sucks there too, so I don't blaime Owlcats for it.

 

[Pink Eye]

>since popping another shrine-herbahat-brewery-tpcircle is degenerate routine and adds nothing to the game.
Buildings only come into play in the early game. From there onwards buildings become irrelevant.

 

[Shadenuat]

soo

its degenerate routine which adds nothing to the game?

 

[Pink Eye]

However, the developers have given the player the option to configure enemy state to reflect the pnp stats.

There's no slider that removes the rogue levels from all the goblins or makes flanking work like it's supposed to. You have to get mods for that.

I don't agree. When I play games I want to be tested, and want to be pushed to my limits. If the challenge proves too arduous then lower the difficulty. I want different mechanics and enemies that make me change my tactics. Hence me playing Unfair exclusively for over one thousand hours. I have also played Unfair + Iron Man and wasted over one hundred hours in the starting area.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker appeals to me, because I like its depth, complexity, and difficulty.

 

[Pink Eye]

soo

its degenerate routine which adds nothing to the game?

I didn't say it wasn't. I was just stating that it is only necessary in the early game.

 

[Daidre]

soo

its degenerate routine which adds nothing to the game?

Only a network of instant transport, best items in the game and a pretty unique (does not mean 100% successful) example in genre of the story > gameplay integration through time-limits.

 

[Pink Eye]

I will never forgot when Desiderius got super lucky with that artisan weapon drop. Fooking lucky man. But that's what careful planning and patience does. Kingdom Management does a good job of rewarding meticulous planning.

 

[Shadenuat]

soo

its degenerate routine which adds nothing to the game?

I didn't say it wasn't. I was just stating that it is only necessary in the early game.

if you want all stats at X it is actually a decent enough boost to stats which you level up late in game.

Only a network of instant transport, best items in the game and a pretty unique (does not mean 100% successful) example in the genre of the story > gameplay integration through time-limits.

A myriad of these items (about 90% of whole excel spreadsheet) are trash and you know this. You get equal quality stuff from pitax barrels.

When I think about something as "kingdom building", I want choices. Roleplay, diplomacy. Jesus, the cyoa Long Live the Queen does it better, it at least has political assassinations and marriage in it.

Time limit is ok, but actual roleplay is really scarce, with pitax chapter being most disappointing part in the game in that regard.

 

[Pink Eye]

Trash that can be sold for gold. Which can be used to invest into BP. Which can be further invested into your kingdom. Artisans are both a great source of income and uniques.

 

[Daidre]

Jesus, the cyoa Long Live the Queen does it better...

Damn, and I was too embarrassed to mention liking Catherine...

 

[ga♥]

BG1/BG2 monster stats are sometimes "placeholders" like Daidre said. This is evident in ToB when AC becomes useless and enemies start hitting you no matter what.

This said, I think it is undeniable that BG1 and BG2 are far easier than PF:KM, especialy at start.

 

[Shadenuat]

Trash that can be sold for gold. Which can be used to invest into BP. Which can be further invested into your kingdom. Artisans are both a great source of income and uniques.

so you need to feed the kingdom management
so you sell items from artisans which are supposed to be reward for kingdom management
back into kingdom management
for more kingdom management

 

[ga♥]

Also despite doing some things much better... the PNP implementation in BG1/2 was quite simpler.

No stat checks whole game (exept maybe 1 dialog?), ultra static implementation of saving throws just based on race and class.

ALL mental were basically useless.

 

[Shadenuat]

but monster variety and loot were good. which is what matters because thats what you do most of the time in these games.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

If you want to see a game that integrates building a kingdom into actual gameplay in a way that actually matters and isn't a complete wreck of trash design and stupidity, check out Ni No Kuni 2. Then despair when you realize Owlcat couldn't figure out something a noob-tier JRPG nailed easily.

 

[Pink Eye]

Trash that can be sold for gold. Which can be used to invest into BP. Which can be further invested into your kingdom. Artisans are both a great source of income and uniques.

so you need to feed the kingdom management
so you sell items from artisans which are supposed to be reward for kingdom management
back into kingdom management
for more kingdom management

Yes, but the pay off is that you get universal buffs out of it. Buffs that give a direct means of power. Some of which are applied even when exploring that damnable DLC dungeon.

 

[Shadenuat]

right. like poison immunity which only works in locations which you already beaten, and you cast anyway.
or bonus to attack which doesn't stack with bless.

I mean, these could be potentially useful if they were more powerful, universal, were integrated into buffing system and were immune dispel (and they are immune), but then enemies don't really use dispel much so

also you need to go and beat final DLC dungeon boss already pink. He is pretty hard.

 

[Pink Eye]

If you want to see a game that integrates building a kingdom into actual gameplay in a way that actually matters and isn't a complete wreck of trash design and stupidity, check out Ni No Kuni 2. Then despair when you realize Owlcat couldn't figure out something a noob-tier JRPG nailed easily.

I don't think we were arguing that the kingdom management is the epitome of the genre. We were merely pointing out that it's part of the experience, and is another system that the player needs to learn and understand. Choosing to ignore the system will have detrimental effects on the experience. By mastering the system the player is rewarded with power that directly affects them.

 

[Pink Eye]

right. like poison immunity which only works in locations which you already beaten, and you cast anyway.
or bonus to attack which doesn't stack with bless.

I mean, these could be potentially useful if they were more powerful, universal, were integrated into buffing system and were immune dispel (and they are immune), but then enemies don't really use dispel much so

also you need to go and beat final DLC dungeon boss already pink. He is pretty hard.

No, fuck that guy. I nearly had a stroke last time on Unfair.