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Demystifying the swarms meme, by anon.

Daidre

Arcane
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Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Mind Blank won't do that much with endgame equipment and the bonus is too weak for spawn. his DC is simply too high.

frankly a lot of DLC status effects are bullshito that go around all rules (like your skeletons can get confused). perhaps developers tried to make saving throws matter more, since they don't matter as much in main game; but then game doesn't really work well with countering effects with saving throws. there isn't anything like "this spell gives +10 sacred bonus against Charm Dominate by XYZ type of enemy" +easily available.
As I've already wrote many times, Holy Aura gives complete immunity to mind effects, and it works on Shrimp. I had not any of my party member CCed in the 3-5 round this thing was alive, and it died before my priest with Mass heal on auto-cast had run out of spells on unfair.
Alas, I rewrote my only save before this fight and can't make a video, but my game was heavily moded, all characters respecced and whole party level 18-19, so it probably would not have counted anyway.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
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I can confirm Holy Aura WON'T protect you Daidre in an unmodded game, and neither immunity to compulsion (the kingdom research).
You can still get confused.
 

Daidre

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
2,003
Location
Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
I can confirm Holy Aura WON'T protect you Daidre in an unmodded game, and neither immunity to compulsion (the kingdom research).
You can still get confused.
I guess I had an excuse to replay P:K once again, to check. I've overdosed on blobbers anyway.

...After slept through the last 3 pages of discussion...
Also despite doing some things much better... the PNP implementation in BG1/2 was quite simpler.

No stat checks whole game (exept maybe 1 dialog?), ultra static implementation of saving throws just based on race and class.

Funny enough, BG1 has pretty well functioning Reaction system - function of character CHA and party's reputation. When Reaction is high enough, it provides better rewards for mini quests, better prices in the shops AND, most importantly, makes attempts of persuading someone in dialogues more successful. I could get several examples from the top of my head, when I failed Reaction checks due to Minsk being talking character:
- mage Ragefast in the nymph quest, he only lets her go peacefully when CHA is high enouph.
- Tamoko before the last battle, she may leave or attack because same line in dialogue is not "persuasive" enough.
- Drowned boy quest in the Temple of Umberlee, there is pathetic begging line with lower requirements and more confident demanding one (if you talk to Tenya, another piece of C&C) that could fail depending on her Reaction.

IIRC, even potential party member could refuse to join in the case of ultra-low Reaction (low Reputation and abyssmal CHA).

Alas, (to avoid sounding like you-know-who), whole system was scrapped in the BG2 and affected mostly prices with some rare scripted checks for INT, WIS and CHA.

I hate pets.
I always knew that someone so nice could only be a horrible person deep inside.
 
Last edited:

ga♥

Arcane
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Btw Pink Eye just did the spawn with the party i told you on unfair.
Was pretty anticlimatic, octavia's two hellfire rays (obviously with grandmaster rod and ambrosial attire), some crit by my MC and he was dead before he could even cast the dispell/heal thing once.

edit: retried without casting any spell (exept buffs/protections). He managed to confuse my illusionist and single shot killed Octavia. Same outcome though, he dies in 2 rounds.

Lesson to be learned is that most of the difficulty of the encounter with the spawn is trying to do it as soon as it becomes available. If you wait after doing Pitax it becomes trivial.
 
Last edited:

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Russia
holy auras(s) are a bit too obvious and I tried them and remember to no effect. they do protect against jabberwocks and the witch from HATEOT.
even items like Regongar Cloak which gives immunity does nothing.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
well, they're not that great or fun to gear up

and most people don't like kung fu in their european fantasy

So completely this.

Playing monk lets you ignore most of the loot in the game, which is a big reason to play these things.

It also doesn't jive with the setting usually, so I generally dislike them outside of super mash up settings that are presented as such. E.g. Golarion and the Forgotten Realms are both mash up settings when the world is considered, but are generally not presented as such in CRPGs.

Tl;dr I brought myself to play a monk once in NWN2. Its name was Karategai Sogei.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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I'm very into cock and ball torture
>I always knew that someone so nice could only be a horrible person deep inside.
What!
I mean I hate the strategy that players use in game. The whole spam the enemy with summons and pets is awful. It trivializes the game's difficulty.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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I'm very into cock and ball torture
Btw Pink Eye just did the spawn with the party i told you on unfair.
Was pretty anticlimatic, octavia's two hellfire rays (obviously with grandmaster rod and ambrosial attire), some crit by my MC and he was dead before he could even cast the dispell/heal thing once.

edit: retried without casting any spell (exept buffs/protections). He managed to confuse my illusionist and single shot killed Octavia. Same outcome though, he dies in 2 rounds.

Lesson to be learned is that most of the difficulty of the encounter with the spawn is trying to do it as soon as it becomes available. If you wait after doing Pitax it becomes trivial.
Figures that a stupid magic caster would melt the boss. NOW BE A REAL MAN AND USE YOUR FISTS!
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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I'm very into cock and ball torture
well, they're not that great or fun to gear up

and most people don't like kung fu in their european fantasy

So completely this.

Playing monk lets you ignore most of the loot in the game, which is a big reason to play these things.

It also doesn't jive with the setting usually, so I generally dislike them outside of super mash up settings that are presented as such. E.g. Golarion and the Forgotten Realms are both mash up settings when the world is considered, but are generally not presented as such in CRPGs.

Tl;dr I brought myself to play a monk once in NWN2. Its name was Karategai Sogei.
See at least this guy gets it. Monk doesn't any equipment or gear to be useful. A monk does damage with or without gear. That's why the class is awesome.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
well, they're not that great or fun to gear up

So completely this.

Playing monk lets you ignore most of the loot in the game, which is a big reason to play these things.

<snip>

Tl;dr I brought myself to play a monk once in NWN2. Its name was Karategai Sogei.

See at least this guy gets it. Monk doesn't any equipment or gear to be useful. A monk does damage with or without gear. That's why the class is awesome.

Alternatively, that's why the class sucks. :mixedemotions:
It removes most meaningful gear progression and doesn't let you play with the new shinies you found.

But I enjoy your enthusiasm, Pink Eye
 

kelkorkesis

Novice
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
92
Playing monk lets you ignore most of the loot in the game, which is a big reason to play these things.

Following post isn't specific about this game but about Pathfinder system. Still it applies to this game too.

There isn't a single class more dependent on gear than monks. For most of a campaign, you would want a standart set of items which boosts your stats. Headbands for mental stats, belts for physical stats, a cloak for saving throws, a weapon (or an amulet of mighty/agile fist) and and some AC items if you are a frontliner. Those fancy items which allows you do this fancy trick 3 times a day? They are nice to have but you need essentials first. Game expects you to have those stats boosts. Challenge ratings, AC, to hit and save values are all designed around it (how competently was this achieved is debatable).

Casters don't need gear except their casting stat modifier, because you can provide any other thing with your spells. Even in a crpg, despite lacking narrative power of spells, your gear dependency is minimal.

Fighter, Paladin (albeit situational), Rogue, Ranger and Slayer have strong numerical boost to their stuff. Fighters with weapon training especially with dueling gloves, Paladins with Divine Grace and Smite (they also enjoy some spells), Rangers with Favoured Enemy... You see where this is going. They need their stat items compared to full and half casters. They are much more stat dependend than full and half casters. But it is somewhat tamed. A STR (or DEX)/CON belt, a weapon a nice set of fullplate would be enough (in absence of casters, but casters are buffing you to compansate your lack of gear you are not really gear independent imho)

Then we have monks. If you want to ditch, STR dependency, you strictly need a specific amulet. You can't wear armour so can't dump dexterity hard. If you want to deal a lot of damage you need strength and size boosts (which you can get from potions/scrolls or your party casters). You want WIS or CHA for defenses. Sure they have small neat abilities, but they are overvalued by designers, it is why monks suck. They don't suck as hard as they did in 3.5. They get 2 face lifts in pathfinder but they are still meh at best. Dip for some good stuff because they are really frontloaded and jump onto another class asap.

This meme that Monks need no gear perpetuated for years and it is absolutely false. Do you want a gear independent class? Go play druid. Go play cleric. Pick an animal companion. See what is like to have gear dependency.

On my first unfair playthrough I used 2 Clerics of Erastil, 2 Druids and 2 Sylvan Sorc mercs. 6 pets, buffed from head to toe with these casters cleared any map without a single input besides engaging while casters themselves hanged out at map entrance in safety. My party didn't equip a single item until level 12. I didn't care about the loot. This is the gear independence.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Playing monk lets you ignore most of the loot in the game, which is a big reason to play these things.
There isn't a single class more dependent on gear than monks.

I get what you're saying and you're broadly right, since monks are so MAD. I was speaking far more specifically than I made clear: I tend to like having characters use plate and interesting (non-monk) weapons like greatswords, etc. As a result, I lean towards paladins and gishes and the like in these games.
 

ga♥

Arcane
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Figures that a stupid magic caster would melt the boss. NOW BE A REAL MAN AND USE YOUR FISTS!

Being bored, I tried killing it with just 2 chars, my MC and the 2h fighter/barbarian.
(I started trying with my MC alone and that was impossible).

Moved whole party out of bows/crossbow range.
1st try MC dies.
2nd try barbarian dies and then MC.
3rd try I managed it kill it.

I think it also bugged out for some reason since my MC is supposed to have 10 attacks per round and apparently it has only 9, and I am not getting +1d6 from accomplished sneak attacker feat. Thanks bag of tricks I guess?
 

kelkorkesis

Novice
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
92
I get what you're saying and you're broadly right, since monks are so MAD. I was speaking far more specifically than I made clear: I tend to like having characters use plate and interesting (non-monk) weapons like greatswords, etc. As a result, I lean towards paladins and gishes and the like in these games.
This game has great monk items though. Monk robes are top picks for your armour and artisans provide a lot of monk weapons which you can flurry with.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I get what you're saying and you're broadly right, since monks are so MAD. I was speaking far more specifically than I made clear: I tend to like having characters use plate and interesting (non-monk) weapons like greatswords, etc. As a result, I lean towards paladins and gishes and the like in these games.
This game has great monk items though. Monk robes are top picks for your armour and artisans provide a lot of monk weapons which you can flurry with.

I don't deny this. See above where I tend to just generally hate the class due to East/West mash up aspects. That's more of a flavour/LARP factor and I own it. Basically, yes, but I can't use the shiny stuff I actually want to see my little dolls wear.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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I'm very into cock and ball torture
kelkorkesis It isn't a meme. The class doesn't need a weapon to be useful. Monk does damage with his fists. Sure, you still need to find those amulets. But besides amulets you can substitute the rest of the gear with buffs.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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I'm very into cock and ball torture
Figures that a stupid magic caster would melt the boss. NOW BE A REAL MAN AND USE YOUR FISTS!

Being bored, I tried killing it with just 2 chars, my MC and the 2h fighter/barbarian.
(I started trying with my MC alone and that was impossible).

Moved whole party out of bows/crossbow range.
1st try MC dies.
2nd try barbarian dies and then MC.
3rd try I managed it kill it.

I think it also bugged out for some reason since my MC is supposed to have 10 attacks per round and apparently it has only 9, and I am not getting +1d6 from accomplished sneak attacker feat. Thanks bag of tricks I guess?
Was this just with the spawn? Did you try spawn + dragon on unfair?
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,078
Figures that a stupid magic caster would melt the boss. NOW BE A REAL MAN AND USE YOUR FISTS!

Being bored, I tried killing it with just 2 chars, my MC and the 2h fighter/barbarian.
(I started trying with my MC alone and that was impossible).

Moved whole party out of bows/crossbow range.
1st try MC dies.
2nd try barbarian dies and then MC.
3rd try I managed it kill it.

I think it also bugged out for some reason since my MC is supposed to have 10 attacks per round and apparently it has only 9, and I am not getting +1d6 from accomplished sneak attacker feat. Thanks bag of tricks I guess?
Was this just with the spawn? Did you try spawn + dragon on unfair?

Dragon + Spawn on unfair (first killing the dragon).
 

Pink Eye

Monk
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
6,195
Location
Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Figures that a stupid magic caster would melt the boss. NOW BE A REAL MAN AND USE YOUR FISTS!

Being bored, I tried killing it with just 2 chars, my MC and the 2h fighter/barbarian.
(I started trying with my MC alone and that was impossible).

Moved whole party out of bows/crossbow range.
1st try MC dies.
2nd try barbarian dies and then MC.
3rd try I managed it kill it.

I think it also bugged out for some reason since my MC is supposed to have 10 attacks per round and apparently it has only 9, and I am not getting +1d6 from accomplished sneak attacker feat. Thanks bag of tricks I guess?
Was this just with the spawn? Did you try spawn + dragon on unfair?

Dragon + Spawn on unfair (first killing the dragon).
This is bullshit. I wasted 5 hours of my life on this fight. 5 HOURS MAN. 5 FOOKING HOURS.
 

kelkorkesis

Novice
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
92
The class doesn't need a weapon to be useful
This holds true for any martial class in Pathfinder if you are willing to pay the feat tax. Also still equip a weapon (same stat boost), you just equip it on amulet slot. It is also easier to give a martial a regular weapon and cast greater magic weapon on it. I don't know how magic fangs interact with unarmed strikes in this game.

But besides amulets you can substitute the rest of the gear with buffs.
Unless your monk is the one casting those buffs you are not gear independent. Caster is. Your monk is just glorified animal companion :D.
 

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