Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Designing RPG mechanics for scalability

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,663
I would further argue that Goblin Level 1 and Goblin Chief Level 5 is strictly superior to a bestiary of goblins level 1,2,3,4,5. The former gives level 2 and 3 players some variety by allowing them to stomp swarms of goblins before hitting level 4 and encountering a challenging new foe that can also be mastered eventually. Especially if said Goblin Chief has a different attack pattern.
 

Craig Stern

Sinister Design
Developer
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
402
Location
Chicago
You have parroted the accepted truth that having players face the same creatures for an extended duration is bad design. Yet you continue to assert that an RPG must have levels AND the same creatures must pose a challenge to the player at different levels AND that the player will enjoy fighting level 210 goblins.

You're missing the point. RPG encounters aren't just one-versus-one fights against single enemies; they're combinatorial. There are loads of little pieces that can be recombined in different configurations to produce different challenges and experiences. Enemy types are one of those pieces. So is terrain. So are battle objectives. So yes: if all we were talking about is reusing goblins ad infinitum at increasing power levels, sure: that would be boring. But if we assume that the developer isn't a complete incompetent when it comes to encounter design, then having more different pieces at his or her disposal when designing encounters is a huge benefit.

Furthermore, I do not find it plausible that your leveling algorithm will produce interesting challenges.

See above. I'm not claiming that scalable content will produce interesting challenges on its own; that's what encounter design is for (a subject I touch on in some of my other articles). But because encounters are combinatorial, having more enemy types at your disposal will absolutely help you to create more varied and interesting encounters--assuming, again, that you're not a total fuck-up when it comes to encounter design. If you are, then no power in the 'verse is going to make your battles interesting.

Also, for the sixth(?) time in this thread: I'm not talking about an algorithm to automatically level-up enemies to match the player's level. I'm talking about an algorithm which will spawn enemies at whatever level the designer hand chooses. (This could also be used with a level-matching algorithm, I guess, but that's not required, let alone recommended in my article.)
 
Last edited:

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,718
Location
California
ALso, for the sixth(?) time in this thread: I'm not talking about an algorithm to automatically level-up enemies to match the player's level. I'm talking about an algorithm which will spawn enemies at whatever level the designer hand chooses. (This could also be used with a level-matching algorithm, I guess, but that's not required, let alone recommended in my article.)
Your article recommended "let[ting] enemy types spawn at differing experience levels" -- specifically, "us[ing] the exact same level-up function I used for player characters to dynamically improve [enemies] on the fly" (your emphasis) -- in order to avoid "encounters which only pose an appropriate challenge during a very narrow window of the player characters’ development" or players' "running into battles they can’t possibly survive." A specific example of this technique you offer is "a battle filled with Bloodbeard’s Bandits at whatever the player’s level is." (I have no idea whether the current iteration of the article has eliminated or qualified these statements.) I know that you're saying in this thread that you aren't advocating what those quotations suggest, but your continued insistence that it's crazy that people read the article as advocating for it is silly. In fact, I don't really understand what "on the fly" could mean if not some kind of in-game (as opposed to predefined) scaling of enemies, nor do I see how your kind of predefined level scaling would solve the problem of encounters only working at certain levels or players facing battles they can't win.

Anyway, I think you're also misunderstanding J1M's point, which is simply that while it is true that combat involves more than enemy stats, having the enemy stats determined by a formula rather than hand-tailored is going to yield an inferior result, whether combinatorial or not.

I also think you haven't responded to the more fundamental point, which is whether it is actually labor saving to give each enemy "stat growth data" and "a skill progression" -- and then test and balance that equation at varying levels -- rather than instead manually defining what the enemy's stats are at a each level. In this sense, it is utterly irrelevant whether we call an enemy a Goblin (Lv. 4) or an Orc; you could just as easily provide each enemy type with a "name progression" or a "palette progression" or a "sprite progression" that is employed dynamically, and in fact you often see epithets and palette swaps used this way in rogue-like games. The question is simply whether, for Goblin (Lv. 1 to 5) it is (1) more efficient and (2) more effective to define the stats by creating and testing a formula or by creating and testing manually generated data. The additional question is whether you are better off in an RPG with hand-crafted encounters simply hand-crafting each enemy, such that any particular instance of a Goblin in the game can have its own unique statistics (presumably starting with some basic norms).

I'm not sure why you'd rather stay hung up on whether people are reading your article correctly or not rather debating whether your method (whatever it is) actually serves the purpose you propose.

Incidentally, this isn't touched on in your article, but it seems to me that a decent argument in favor of Goblin (Lv. X) instead of Goblin (with the following unique stats) is that it makes it easier for the player to quickly grasp what's going on in a battle. Of course the exact same argument would favor Kobold, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orc, Uruk-Hai instead Goblin (Lv. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), so I'm not sure it ultimately is a winner.
 

Craig Stern

Sinister Design
Developer
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
402
Location
Chicago
MRY, you really need to stop quoting isolated snippets out of context like that--it's misleading. The problem of encounters only working at certain levels / players facing battles they can't win are discussed during the introduction, not during the bit about letting enemies spawn at differing experience levels. These problems are directly addressed later in the article, by the second and third suggestions (linear stat growth and percentage-based effects). You could use some sort of automated system to scale enemies up or down in level to address that as well, I guess, though I personally would avoid going that route.

As for the labor-saving thing: I've designed multiple RPGs where I hand-crafted variants of enemies at differing experience levels (i.e. the "brittle" way), and I have now designed an RPG where I can dynamically produce variants at whatever power levels I so choose. Based on my experience creating RPGs these past 11 years, I am telling you that the second way is faster, and does not yield noticeably worse results. (The only way that it would be likely to yield worse results is if you designed your mechanics so that small variations in level produced huge difficulty swings--which is to say, if you deliberately ignored the entire rest of the article and employed exponential stat growth and subtractive attack damage mechanics.)
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom