Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Pre-Release Thread

[sea]

And yeah, convincing Master of the failure of his genius plan by mentioning something glaringly obvious was retarded.

It's only "glaringly obvious" because you got the info from the Brotherhood, and it's perfectly plausible the Master didn't have that data.

 

[DraQ]

Technically DX1 had that, it just spread the buttons apart and some of them were keypads.

Context, man. You abstract far enough you can say that any choice-ending is basically just a button, if it isn't influenced by earlier decisions. I think that's too much of a generalized statement. ODX was pretty far from HR/ME3 blatant button presses.

TBH I don't have that much problem with ending choice being effectively menu-based if it works in the context.
Yeah, I know it's technically awkward, lazy and bad gameplay, but you can get away with it if it works in the context.
And "choose ur buttan" was among the least grating things about DX:HR's ending.

And yeah, convincing Master of the failure of his genius plan by mentioning something glaringly obvious was retarded.

It's only "glaringly obvious" because you got the info from the Brotherhood, and it's perfectly plausible the Master didn't have that data.

Sorry, but when your plan relies on supermutants humping productively then I'd consider their inability to hump productively pretty fucking obvious flaw.

 

[felipepepe]

I think it's because it's so simple that it's overlooked. You're dipping men and women into FEV and turning them into super-soldiers. The fact that both sex are being transformed would eliminate the whole issue of reproduction from your mind. The guy thinks that super-mutants are the next step in evolution, not a bad thing that would cause sterility.

 

[Infinitron]

I think it's because it's so simple that it's overlooked. You're dipping men and women into FEV and turning them into super-soldiers. The fact that both sex are being transformed would eliminate the whole issue of reproduction from your mind. The guy thinks that super-mutants are the next step in evolution, not a bad thing that would cause sterility.

Nope, sorry, it still doesn't make sense.

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

(He still should have found out about it earlier, though. Maybe make it something that developed later?)

 

[J1M]

Alpha Protocol's stealth gameplay is a lot more enjoyable if you play it without the use of weapons.

 

[Morality Games]

Simulation only goes so far. Real life diplomacy is basically trading and bartering between two sides of well informed players who have all of the knowledge and resources a nation's worth of institutions and people can provide, not exploiting the holes in an individual person's philosophy. While it is plausible an RPG could exist that makes "hard boiled" negotiation a staple feature of the design, it was far outside the purview of Fallout and DXHR. In this case, 'realism' is subordinate to allowing the player to act out the role of a diplomat instead of a fighter while not expanding too far the established parameters of quest and level design.

Alpha Protocol's stealth gameplay is a lot more enjoyable if you play it without the use of weapons.

Aye, tis so.

 

[DraQ]

I think it's because it's so simple that it's overlooked. You're dipping men and women into FEV and turning them into super-soldiers. The fact that both sex are being transformed would eliminate the whole issue of reproduction from your mind. The guy thinks that super-mutants are the next step in evolution, not a bad thing that would cause sterility.

Nope, sorry, it still doesn't make sense.

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

(He still should have found out about it earlier, though. Maybe make it something that developed later?)

Or, the plan could have had some less glaringly obvious flaw instead.

 

[tuluse]

Nope, sorry, it still doesn't make sense.

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

(He still should have found out about it earlier, though. Maybe make it something that developed later?)

Alternatively, it could have been something that happens after a few generations. So the current crop of super mutants could reproduce (maybe with a low rate of success), but within 3 generations they'll be sterile.

 

[Morality Games]

People probably won't like me praising Bioware, but the original Mass Effect actually supplied a better simulation of a diplomatic solution to the end-game boss battle because you had to pass a Paragon/Renegade check at an earlier interval in the game to receive the opportunity at a later date, adding more plausibility to the breach in Saren's "ideological fortress." If it's about manipulating a person at a psychological level, at least the game requires you to use a paced method.

 

[DraQ]

Nope, sorry, it still doesn't make sense.

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

(He still should have found out about it earlier, though. Maybe make it something that developed later?)

Alternatively, it could have been something that happens after a few generations. So the current crop of super mutants could reproduce (maybe with a low rate of success), but within 3 generations they'll be sterile.

The problem with sterility is that Master could've worked around that. For example by keeping captive population of undipped humans that would be dipped only after producing sufficient amount of offspring.

Seriously, as far as Master-like villains go, Master himself was p. shitty.
A much more workable example would be Dagoth Ur, except his plan didn't have any glaring flaws except being just plain disagreeable. Maybe that's the reason why you couldn't have dialogued him to death.

 

[felipepepe]

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

Lou does knows about it: http://youtu.be/8U9T8Z_Ayhw

Presently, there is a slight... problem in the reproductive process. It's being attended to. For now, we must use the Vats to turn humans into Super-Mutants.

So yeah, maybe it was removed out from the game....or implemented late.

 

[Gragt]

I think it's because it's so simple that it's overlooked. You're dipping men and women into FEV and turning them into super-soldiers. The fact that both sex are being transformed would eliminate the whole issue of reproduction from your mind. The guy thinks that super-mutants are the next step in evolution, not a bad thing that would cause sterility.

Nope, sorry, it still doesn't make sense.

What they should have done is introduced some sort of subplot where the Master was growing out of touch with the outside world and his supermutant minions (such as Lou) were actually HIDING their own infertility from him, in fear that he would destroy them all if he found out.

(He still should have found out about it earlier, though. Maybe make it something that developed later?)

That's assuming the Master is of sound mind but he is clearly disconnected from reality. It isn't too hard to imagine him overlooking such important information when he is convinced of his mission to change the world.

Lou does knows about it: http://youtu.be/8U9T8Z_Ayhw

Presently, there is a slight... problem in the reproductive process. It's being attended to. For now, we must use the Vats to turn humans into Super-Mutants.

So yeah, maybe it was removed out from the game....or implemented late.

It still works. Some of the Super-Mutants are aware of the problem but the Master either isn't aware of it or just chose to ignore it because of his psychotic nature.

 

[Zombra]

And "choose ur buttan" was among the least grating things about DX:HR's ending.

Really? I don't know, man. Maybe you can cite a lot of things that were bad about it, but I find it hard to believe that any of them were worse. I can stomach a lot of nonsense and bad writing as long as it's integrated well.

 

[DraQ]

And "choose ur buttan" was among the least grating things about DX:HR's ending.

Really? I don't know, man. Maybe you can cite a lot of things that were bad about it, but I find it hard to believe that any of them were worse. I can stomach a lot of nonsense and bad writing as long as it's integrated well.

Well, relaying either of 3 different messages through the same terminal really isn't among the worst integrated cases of effectively choosing your ending from a menu.

OTOH during the same endgame you also have derpy evuul supercomputer technology using surgically crippled wymyn developed for no adequate purpose, an antagonist trying to merge with it without much to gain, alleged genius going full apocalypse on unsuspecting world for no reason other than possibly butthurt, and zombie apocalypse lite.

 

[SoupNazi]

Lou does knows about it: http://youtu.be/8U9T8Z_Ayhw

Presently, there is a slight... problem in the reproductive process. It's being attended to. For now, we must use the Vats to turn humans into Super-Mutants.

So yeah, maybe it was removed out from the game....or implemented late.

It still works. Some of the Super-Mutants are aware of the problem but the Master either isn't aware of it or just chose to ignore it because of his psychotic nature.

IT'S OKAY HE WAS A PSYCHO

you could apply this excuse to any shoddily written character in any game ever

 

[Zombra]

And "choose ur buttan" was among the least grating things about DX:HR's ending.

Really? I don't know, man. Maybe you can cite a lot of things that were bad about it, but I find it hard to believe that any of them were worse. I can stomach a lot of nonsense and bad writing as long as it's integrated well.

Well, relaying either of 3 different messages through the same terminal really isn't among the worst integrated cases of effectively choosing your ending from a menu.
OTOH during the same endgame you also have derpy evuul supercomputer technology using surgically crippled wymyn developed for no adequate purpose, an antagonist trying to merge with it without much to gain, alleged genius going full apocalypse on unsuspecting world for no reason other than possibly butthurt, and zombie apocalypse lite.

Fair enough. I can accept that for some people mediocre game writing is worse than lazy game design. Not me though.

 

[Gragt]

Lou does knows about it: http://youtu.be/8U9T8Z_Ayhw

Presently, there is a slight... problem in the reproductive process. It's being attended to. For now, we must use the Vats to turn humans into Super-Mutants.

So yeah, maybe it was removed out from the game....or implemented late.

It still works. Some of the Super-Mutants are aware of the problem but the Master either isn't aware of it or just chose to ignore it because of his psychotic nature.

IT'S OKAY HE WAS A PSYCHO

you could apply this excuse to any shoddily written character in any game ever

It may be but psychosis applied to some real-life people who had a big impact on the world. The difference here, in fiction, is how that flaw impacts the character as a flaw of character isn't necessarily a flaw of writing. Also the word I used was specifically "psychotic" not the generic "psycho".

 

[DraQ]

Fair enough. I can accept that for some people mediocre game writing is worse than lazy game design. Not me though.

Sorry, but I just don't see crying myself to sleep over around 2' worth of lazy game design.

 

[Zombra]

Fair enough. I can accept that for some people mediocre game writing is worse than lazy game design. Not me though.

Sorry, but I just don't see crying myself to sleep over around 2' worth of lazy game design.

No apology necessary. :D You're welcome to your tastes.

There was a reason there was so much uproar over the awfulness of the 3 buttan system though - it didn't just affect the ending cutscene, but retroactively rendered all the stuff that came before it meaningless. When you make the entire story not matter, its quality becomes irrelevant.

You'd rather have a good story that makes no difference to the game than a mediocre yet reactive and interactive one. You're not wrong for having that opinion - I just don't share it, particularly when we're talking about the Deus Ex franchise. Looks like neither one of us is going to budge, and that's fine too. Cheers.

 

[tuluse]

No apology necessary. :D You're welcome to your tastes.

There was a reason there was so much uproar over the awfulness of the 3 buttan system though - it didn't just affect the ending cutscene, but retroactively rendered all the stuff that came before it meaningless. When you make the entire story not matter, its quality becomes irrelevant.

You'd rather have a good story that makes no difference to the game than a mediocre yet reactive and interactive one. You're not wrong for having that opinion - I just don't share it, particularly when we're talking about the Deus Ex franchise. Looks like neither one of us is going to budge, and that's fine too. Cheers.

That's not true though. There is some minor c&c in the game. Like saving the helicopter pilot (which is one of the greatest set pieces in AAA gaming history).

It also doesn't make the rest of the game any more meaningless than the end of DX1 or VtMB endings made the rest of the game meaningless. It was a shitty end no doubt, but it didn't erase the rest of the game.

 

[DraQ]

No apology necessary. :D You're welcome to your tastes.

There was a reason there was so much uproar over the awfulness of the 3 buttan system though - it didn't just affect the ending cutscene, but retroactively rendered all the stuff that came before it meaningless. When you make the entire story not matter, its quality becomes irrelevant.

You'd rather have a good story that makes no difference to the game than a mediocre yet reactive and interactive one. You're not wrong for having that opinion - I just don't share it, particularly when we're talking about the Deus Ex franchise. Looks like neither one of us is going to budge, and that's fine too. Cheers.

That's not true though. There is some minor c&c in the game. Like saving the helicopter pilot (which is one of the greatest set pieces in AAA gaming history).

It also doesn't make the rest of the game any more meaningless than the end of DX1 or VtMB endings made the rest of the game meaningless. It was a shitty end no doubt, but it didn't erase the rest of the game.

This. Most games, even those praised for their C&C, feature a lot of stuff that makes no impact on their ending.

The original Deus Ex, by the way, only had stuff that happened in the last level have any impact on its ending.

I prefer reactivity and interactivity but my definition of reactivity and interactivity encompasses all changes that have some effect on gameplay or narrative, not just those that alter the ending cinematic, because I don't play the ending cinematic, I play the entire game.
In this regard, having the buttons clustered together and the final choice involving no gameplay can't really mar DX:HR as far as C&C goes, OTOH the narrative falling apart does hurt the game a lot.

 

[Zombra]

That's not true though. There is some minor c&c in the game. Like saving the helicopter pilot (which is one of the greatest set pieces in AAA gaming history).

It also doesn't make the rest of the game any more meaningless than the end of DX1 or VtMB endings made the rest of the game meaningless. It was a shitty end no doubt, but it didn't erase the rest of the game.

Well, if you put it that way, OK, I'll budge. :D

I still say that the 3 button ending was a much bigger problem than any overall cheapness of the game's writing. Although better writing certainly could have framed it better ... the cab driver in Bloodlines is a good example of a far more integrated way to do it; it was essentially the same thing, but at least it used an existing and familiar game system to determine the outcome. And I definitely still disagree that the ending system was an innocuous flaw compared to the writing, which was the comment that set me off in the first place. There's a reason the 3 buttons are more famously bad than the story.

 

[DraQ]

And I definitely still disagree that the ending system was an innocuous flaw compared to the writing, which was the comment that set me off in the first place.

But it was. It was disappointing to be sure, but the game, as it was set up, didn't really require anything more.
If it was set up differently it might have called for a more involved ending, but if we're going to discuss this set up, sudden plot integrity critical failure makes for a much bigger problem than 3-buttons-1-room.

There's a reason the 3 buttons are more famously bad than the story.

Problem with 3 buttons in a single room is easier to notice and articulate than one demanding analysis of the plot, character motivations, tech fluff and so on to notice?

 

[Zombra]

But it was. It was disappointing to be sure, but the game, as it was set up, didn't really require anything more.
If it was set up differently it might have called for a more involved ending, but if we're going to discuss this set up, sudden plot integrity critical failure makes for a much bigger problem than 3-buttons-1-room.

Well ... then we're talking about the same thing from two different angles. Obviously I can't complain about the 3 buttons without complaining about the structural setup of the whole game, but that isn't what you've been complaining about (that I could tell) ... you've been saying this story thing was derpy, that story thing was derpy. If you're saying that your complaints about the story have actually been directed, not at the content, but at the overall narrative arc of the whole game leading to a meaningless ending, then OK, we agree.

There's a reason the 3 buttons are more famously bad than the story.

Problem with 3 buttons in a single room is easier to notice and articulate than one demanding analysis of the plot, character motivations, tech fluff and so on to notice?

Fair enough, but I'd say that a big obvious noticeable problem, that even a goof like me can identify, is a more important problem than a subtle one ... at least in an entertainment product. Little structural weaknesses are certainly bad, but shoving the whole thing off a cliff is worse.

 

[DraQ]

Well ... then we're talking about the same thing from two different angles. Obviously I can't complain about the 3 buttons without complaining about the structural setup of the whole game, but that isn't what you've been complaining about (that I could tell) ... you've been saying this story thing was derpy, that story thing was derpy.

Let me rephrase:
It was lazy but worked in the context. If we're to take apart the context, then it has much more severe problems than allowing for 3-buttons-1-room ending choice.

Fair enough, but I'd say that a big obvious noticeable problem, that even a goof like me can identify, is a more important problem than a subtle one ... at least in an entertainment product. Little structural weaknesses are certainly bad, but shoving the whole thing off a cliff is worse.

I can't fully agree, especially when the other problems aren't exactly subtle, they merely take less stupid audience to notice.
3 buttons, whether they are conspicuous or not, merely amount to around 2 minutes of non-gameplay that could've been gameplay.