Devil May Cry 5

[Reever]

And another is Credo who happens to be one the best bosses fights in videogame history

But mentioning that would defeat the point of him cherrypicking the boss fights. Because DMC1 has no horrible bosses, right?

 

[Silverfish]

Regradles Nightmare would've been fine as a 1-off fight, but 3 fucking times is just insulting

"It's insulting how the game forced me to have fun three times." To be fair, this is understandable from fans of the Itsuno games, where you never do.

And another is Credo who happens to be one the best bosses fights in videogame history

He's better than the window, I'll give you that.

The character is purposely made to be a "jack of all trades, master of all" and learning that moveset is the main challenge and fun

Which would be cool if the enemies were capable of defending themselves.

Because DMC1 has no horrible bosses, right?

Right. Honestly, even Griffon shits all over most of the 3-5 bosses.

 

[Ezekiel]

I only like Devil May Cry 3. Barely remember 1, though, and never played 2. Anyway, they fucked it up. Ruined something special with convoluted controls, too many characters and gradual departure from the dark gothic fantasy design for one more real world and boring. The story of 5 also felt pointless. And, yeah, the bosses after 3 were lame. 3 also had a much more interesting world. Loved how the tower twisted and totally rearranged the world. Felt so connected, like Dark Souls, whereas 4 was a boring line that you backtracked in the second half and 5 was so disjointed.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

"It's insulting how the game forced me to have fun three times."

>Nightmare
>fun

Which would be cool if the enemies were capable of defending themselves.

>game series that from the start was both mechanically and narratively about an absurdly OP idiot dunking on enemies with ease
>noooo!!! the playable character can't be an unstoppable juggernaut (like he was designed to) once the player has invested hours and hours to master him and complete the game's ultimate challenge of S ranking DMD

 

[Lambach]

Which would be cool if the enemies were capable of defending themselves.

Sounds to me like you only played on the lower difficulties, because many non-boss enemies can give you a pretty brutal ass-fucking on DMD if you're not at the top of your game. They're much beefier and harder to kill, they hit like a truck so you have very little room for error and are pretty aggressive too, so you can't just dunk on one Demon with endless combos while his pals stand and watch, you have to constantly balance between offense and defense.

'Course, there are players who make even DMD look piss-easy and make all enemies look like they're just stationary punching bags, but for 99% of players, I doubt their impression of enemies on DMD is going to be "they can't defend themselves".

 

[Machocruz]

I'm not a mechanics purist, so DMC1 is still fun to me. I think DMC3 is peak DMC for a lot of people because it straddles the line between the stronger adventure of the first game and stronger action of the following games. Funny how the continuum worked out with the first and last game being the ends of the series' action-adventure spectrum and the middle game in the middle.

 

[Silverfish]

Sounds to me like you only played on the lower difficulties, because many non-boss enemies can give you a pretty brutal ass-fucking on DMD if you're not at the top of your game. They're much beefier and harder to kill, they hit like a truck so you have very little room for error and are pretty aggressive too, so you can't just dunk on one Demon with endless combos while his pals stand and watch, you have to constantly balance between offense and defense.

Having more HP and dishing out more damage doesn't make the combat more engaging when the enemies in question suck. Take DMCs 1 and 3 for example. In DMC3, the most basic, cannon fodder enemies all have one or at most two attacks they can throw out. They're even color coded for your convenience (black = overhead slash, red = lunging slash, brown = short range projectile and white = teleport to your location, followed by overhead slash). The same basic, putty patroller enemies in the first game have a 1-3 hit combo which they may or may not finish out to fuck with your timing, a grab, a spinning gap closer, the ability to block with a follow-up punish, an AOE scream that disables Dante for a couple of seconds and two kinds of ranged attacks (either throwing their melee weapons for meager damage, but good range or a shotgun blast that's the inverse and also has knockdown depending on range). Granted, they are also color coded for your convenience, but only to the extant that red = more health. That's why I've always had a disconnect with the Itsuno-led games. The complexity of the player characters and the elaborate combos on offer seem pointless when you're fighting dudes who don't have much more going on than the enemies in DMC2.

 

[Lambach]

Having more HP and dishing out more damage doesn't make the combat more engaging when the enemies in question suck.

I already said in my previous post that they also become more aggressive. Their AI changes significantly on higher difficulty levels. Some of them even have whole new moves and abilities. On top of that, they too become able to Devil Trigger when they get low on Health, making them even more resilient and harder to stagger, forcing you to switch tactics.

The complexity of the player characters and the elaborate combos on offer seem pointless when you're fighting dudes who don't have much more going on than the enemies in DMC2.

Go through all 100 levels of Bloody Palace, then come back and tell me how little the mobs have going for them. Bloody Palace doesn't have a difficulty slider, that instead depends on what level you're at. For the first 10 or 20 levels, they have stats and AI as they do on the lower difficulty settings from the regular game, and by the end they're in DMD mode. You will actually see in real-time what a difference this makes in their behavior and what they have at their disposal.

 

[Silverfish]

Go through all 100 levels of Bloody Palace

I'd rather not, if it's all the same to you. I'm well aware that enemies get stat buffs and become more aggressive, but I'd rather play a game where enemies are fun right out of the box.

 

[Lambach]

I'd rather not, if it's all the same to you. I'm well aware that enemies get stat buffs and become more aggressive, but I'd rather play a game where enemies are fun right out of the box.

Lulz, if they were at 100% right from the start, you'd be pointlessly slamming your head against the wall for hours, because they would be wiping the floor with you over and over. They're dumb on lower difficulties because you need to learn to play the game first. Nero's gameplay is fairly straightforward, but Dante and V take some time to get used to. It would be pretty retarded to throw hyper-aggressive Demons with their incredibly strong DMD-only powers at a player who still hasn't properly mastered switching Dante's Styles on the fly.

 

[Silverfish]

Lulz, if they were at 100% right from the start, you'd be pointlessly slamming your head against the wall for hours, because they would be wiping the floor with you over and over.

I agree, which is why that wasn't my contention. I'm saying they're no fun because regardless of stats and aggression, they simply don't compare to the sheer variety that Dante has and that, over the years, DMC has evolved into "Dynasty Warriors, but you occasionally die".

 

[Ezekiel]

I finished Bloody Palace in Devil May Cry 3 once. Never bothered with 4, DmC and 5 because the games didn't grab me enough to get good.

 

[Lambach]

I agree, which is why that wasn't my contention. I'm saying they're no fun because regardless of stats and aggression, they simply don't compare to the sheer variety that Dante has and that, over the years, DMC has evolved into "Dynasty Warriors, but you occasionally die".

"The game offers you a great variety of ways to tackle combat and that's not fun".

OK, that's a new one.

But just so you know, you're not actually forced to use any of that. I'm pretty sure you can beat even DMD with just the Sword, Pistols and one Style if you're good enough. Hell, if you truly master Royal Guard, you can beat the game without ever using a weapon or anything else at Dante's disposal.

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

I agree, which is why that wasn't my contention. I'm saying they're no fun because regardless of stats and aggression, they simply don't compare to the sheer variety that Dante has and that, over the years, DMC has evolved into "Dynasty Warriors, but you occasionally die".

"The game offers you a great variety of ways to tackle combat and that's not fun".

OK, that's a new one.

But just so you know, you're not actually forced to use any of that. I'm pretty sure you can beat even DMD with just the Sword, Pistols and one Style if you're good enough. Hell, if you truly master Royal Guard, you can beat the game without ever using a weapon or anything else at Dante's disposal.

I would defend the new DMC's quite a bit, but you realize what you said is not a counter argument to what he said. "Well if you don't want, you don't have to use it" is not really a good counter.

 

[Lambach]

I would defend the new DMC's quite a bit, but you realize what you said is not a counter argument to what he said. "Well if you don't want, you don't have to use it" is not really a good counter.

I don't understand his argument at all, to be honest. The game is boring because it gives you lots of options on how to play it, the options that you can, but absolutely do not have to, use?

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

I would defend the new DMC's quite a bit, but you realize what you said is not a counter argument to what he said. "Well if you don't want, you don't have to use it" is not really a good counter.

I don't understand his argument at all, to be honest. The game is boring because it gives you lots of options on how to play it, the options that you can, but absolutely do not have to, use?

From what he said, I think he's primarily talking about the first time experience. I think the main issue stems from the fact how much of a cake walk the games have become on normal difficulty and how wide of a toolkit your player character has. Since any button combination produces effective moves, combined with the low difficulty it's gonna produce low engagement. I saw a review from under the mayo guy and he was bitching about how easy the game was and how bored he was.

Yes, the games do get significantly better on harder difficulties but the difficulty proper only shows up at DMD. I think DMC in it's attempt to be accessible made it so that a lot of people are gonna have a button mashy Dynasty Warrior esque gameplay through the first run. And on easier runs you really don't have to use anything, you can just mash mash and win. The engagement level is so low that people who have completed the game have no idea about basic shit like pause combos and multi directional shit like air streaks, let alone jump cancels. You can mash your way to victory because the sheer quantity of stuff means something good will come out, hence they never play it again because it was just a button masher. There is a reason casuals on the internet think Sekiro is a better game than DMC.

PS: Plus, everyone is like items are part of the game, while for DMC fans they might as well not exist. Bunch of retarded condescending decisions like free gold orbs etc.. makes DMC a casual as fuck experience.

 

[Lambach]

And on easier runs you really don't have to use anything, you can just mash mash and win. The engagement level is so low that people who have completed the game have no idea about basic shit like pause combos and multi directional shit like air streaks, let alone jump cancels. You can mash your way to victory because the sheer quantity of stuff means something good will come out, hence they never play it again because it was just a button masher. There is a reason casuals on the internet think Sekiro is a better game than DMC.

Yeah, I can see how someone may dislike that, but that's not really a valid criticism of the game itself. DMC is a series with that particular design philosophy - the first (or even second) playthrough is there to teach you how to play and the real game comes later, when you master the basics. That's not a flaw of the game, it just means it's not trying to cater to everyone's tastes (because when you try to make a game that everyone will like, you end up with some dull sludge that nobody likes). And DMC is a relatively niche series anyway.

PS: Plus, everyone is like items are part of the game, while for DMC fans they might as well not exist. Bunch of retarded condescending decisions like free gold orbs etc.. makes DMC a casual as fuck experience.

There are not enough Gold Orbs in the Universe that will allow you to beat DMD if you really suck.

Also, DMC by its design is not only about surviving and making it through to the end, it's about raking up that Style score. If the aforementioned casuals play it just as a button masher so they can get through to the final cutscene, that's not a flaw of the game itself, they're just literally playing it wrong.

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

PS: Plus, everyone is like items are part of the game, while for DMC fans they might as well not exist. Bunch of retarded condescending decisions like free gold orbs etc.. makes DMC a casual as fuck experience.

There are not enough Gold Orbs in the Universe that will allow you to beat DMD if you really suck.

Also, DMC by its design is not only about surviving and making it through to the end, it's about raking up that Style score. If the aforementioned casuals play it just as a button masher so they can get through to the final cutscene, that's not a flaw of the game itself, they're just literally playing it wrong.

DMD is not the first experience, Devil Hunter is. And people will play that and think the game is shallow. And yes, it is the fault of the game to not put it's best foot forward. The philosophy is garbage, you don't teach people how to use a hammer by making a wall of paper. And DMC was trying to cater for everyone, that's what the infinite gold orb is and for me DMCs attempts at accessibility was to make it a dull sludge, that's what Devil Hunter is for anyone who can play games.

Also, yes, infinite gold orbs will let you beat even DMD because bosses keep the damage you deal.

Also, DMC by its design is not only about surviving and making it through to the end, it's about raking up that Style score. If the aforementioned casuals play it just as a button masher so they can get through to the final cutscene, that's not a flaw of the game itself, they're just literally playing it wrong.

This is a not an argument, DMC is about surviving, why does it have health bars if that's the case? DMC is about surviving and making to the end but making it to the end stylishly. DMC4/5 did not have the confidence in it's player base and hence the garbage difficulty. What do you mean playing it wrong? One part of the game is optional the other is necessary for progression, I wonder what people will prioritize, the superflous or the meaningful!


I think if Itsuno had the same uncompromising stance that Itagaki took with Ninja Gaiden, the games would have been better for it. People would've had to learn the games to complete it and hence understand the deeper systems. Just cause it exists, it's not the players job to engage with it.

 

[Lambach]

DMD is not the first experience, Devil Hunter is. And people will play that and think the game is shallow.

Well, fuck 'em for going into the game uninformed. Imagine having this mindset about, say, a D&D-based RPG. "OMG, this game is garbage, my Wizard can never hit anything with his stick, so stupid and boring!"

The philosophy is garbage, you don't teach people how to use a hammer by making a wall of paper.

You also don't teach a kid how to swim by immediately catapulting it into a freezing river.

This is a not an argument, DMC is about surviving, why does it have health bars if that's the case?

I said it's not only about surviving.

What do you mean playing it wrong?

I mean that the game is constantly encouraging (but not forcing) you to be Stylish in very obvious ways, and if you still chose to play it like a button masher, well, that's on you.

One part of the game is optional the other is necessary for progression, I wonder what people will prioritize, the superflous or the meaningful!

You're talking about this like it's a job or a chore. The priority is to have fun, and you can't really have all that much fun if you play it like a button masher. The Style meter constantly flashing in your face and the narrator shouting his balls off when you gain points are a pretty clear indicator of that, I think. If you chose to ignore that, well, the game still allows you to progress, but you're literally doing it wrong.

I think if Itsuno had the same uncompromising stance that Itagaki took with Ninja Gaiden, the games would have been better for it.

I too would have preferred a more hardline and uncompromising design, because that's an excellent tool of gatekeeping the normies from the game, but these elements of casualization didn't really hamper my experience of the game, because I chose to ignore them. You don't have to use Golden Orbs and fuck you if you do, goddamn scrub.

Just cause it exists, it's not the players job to engage with it.

It's also not the developers job to force feed you your vegetables. It's there and if you want to have fun with the game, you'll need to use it. If not, you can still go through the game for the story or whatever (though I honestly don't know anyone who plays DMC games for the story) and if you think it's boring, fuck you, go play something else.

Again, "normies think it's boring because they put the absolute bare minimum effort into it and are ignoring all the things the game does to encourage them to play differently" is not a valid criticism.

 

[Multidirectional]

My main issue with DMC5, apart from being forced to play V few times, is the progresssion of difficulty. Devil Hunter - piss easy except for Vergil fight which forces you to at least pay attention. Son of Sparda - still mostly piss easy except for the same fight, and maybe the Urizen boss. Then comes Dante Must Die and suddenly it's rape where even getting through regular enemies becomes tough. When I finally reached Dante's missions in DMD I couldn't get through even one of them as it turned out I had no idea how to do proper damage with him on that difficulty, felt like I was just chipping away at enemies while they rape me in couple hits. I guess I could've gotten through it using Gold Orbs, I certainly have gathered plenty of them up to that point, but then it wouldn't really feel like I actually completed it. It doesn't feel at all like the game properly prepares you for DMD. Probably gonna return to it one of these days anyway as I still like the game.

 

[Lambach]

My main issue with DMC5, apart from being forced to play V few times, is the progresssion of difficulty. Devil Hunter - piss easy except for Vergil fight which forces you to at least pay attention. Son of Sparda - still mostly piss easy except for the same fight, and maybe the Urizen boss. Then comes Dante Must Die and suddenly it's rape where even getting through regular enemies becomes tough. When I finally reached Dante's missions in DMD I couldn't get through even one of them as it turned out I had no idea how to do proper damage with him on that difficulty, felt like I was just chipping away at enemies while they rape me in couple hits. I guess I could've gotten through it using Gold Orbs, I certainly have gathered plenty of them up to that point, but then it wouldn't really feel like I actually completed it. It doesn't feel at all like the game properly prepares you for DMD. Probably gonna return to it one of these days anyway as I still like the game.

Here, Dedicated_Dark , an example of valid criticism.

"The game is not good because I don't like its design philosophy!" - Not valid.

"The game did a fairly shitty job of executing its own design philosophy." - Valid

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

lawl, I was explaining the point the previous dude made and how he can come to it. But you are set in your ways of dick sucking the game, a game which I personally consider to be one of the greatest ever made by the way.

"The game is not good because I don't like its design philosophy!" - Not valid.

"The game did a fairly shitty job of executing its own design philosophy." - Valid

Come on man, this is almost like a joke. I'm surprised you can't see the fallacy in this. Cue the philosophy of the awesome button.

 

[Lambach]

lawl, I was explaining the point the previous dude made and how he can come to it.

Well in that case, you did a really shit job of explaining your point, because he did it better in one short post than you did in 3.

And no, that's not what you said at all, you're just making shit up now. You said it was garbage design to start off easy and get to the good stuff after you've beaten the easy stuff. He said that this design wasn't implemented all that well, not that it's inherently garbage.

The philosophy is garbage,

"Doom's design philosophy is garbage because it doesn't have turn-based combat!", p. much how you sound.

 

[Dedicated_Dark]

I love arguing with people who quote each line separately devoid of context and then provide a statement specifically arguing that statement instead of the crux of the issue. Plus pulling out false equivalencies, always a good time.

 

[Lambach]

I hate arguing with people who quote each line separately devoid of context and then provide a statement specifically arguing that statement instead of the crux of the issue.

OK, here's your context, bruv.

DMD is not the first experience, Devil Hunter is. And people will play that and think the game is shallow. And yes, it is the fault of the game to not put it's best foot forward. The philosophy is garbage, you don't teach people how to use a hammer by making a wall of paper. And DMC was trying to cater for everyone, that's what the infinite gold orb is and for me DMCs attempts at accessibility was to make it a dull sludge, that's what Devil Hunter is for anyone who can play games.

How does this invalidate anything I said?

"People think the game is shallow"

You click one button and open a menu with a mile-long list of combos. moves and abilities you can purchase. The game is constantly flashing bright lights in your face that tell you "HEY DUDE, DON'T JUST SPAM THE ATTACK BUTTON LIKE A CRIPPLED MONGOLOID, USE A COUPLE OF THESE 7 TRILLION COMBOS YOUR CHARACTER HAS TO SCORE MORE POINTS!" If someone can still think this is just a button masher with all of this, he should uninstall DMC and go lick windows or eat glue or whatever. Enemies are retarded so you can practice these combos and moves without getting your pussy destroyed, so you can commit them to muscle memory and use them effortlessly when they become almost necessary to survive (DMD, for example).

"Man, this game whose core gameplay mechanics I'm completely ignoring and putting just the bare minimum effort into sure is boring!"

Would the game be better if it threw you into the fire straight away and forced you to not button mash? I dunno, maybe. I do know that it would make no difference to me personally, though, because I knew what I was getting into and I knew how DMC games are supposed to be played.