Disco Elysium Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Iznaliu]

I don´t know... Was it the spoiler tags? No images? I have a gut feeling not everyone saw it, so I´m reposting this ´un:

No mention of revising Trianon. Bad Hungarians.

 

[Kasparov]

Minor lore and major art post!
http://zaumstudio.com/2017/04/20/the-franconigerian-cavalry/
"THE Franconigerian Cavalry"

Aleksander Rostov



The heavy cavalry of Innocence Franconegro, sweeping over the plains and nations of the enemies of man kind, 5th Century style. Unified currency and the concept of “cool” came in their wake. They wore lamellar and carried guns. But first and foremost, Franconigerian heavy cavalry was really, really wide.

 

[xxxCatholicKillahxxx]

Major indeed.

How much will a history of your game's setting written to such an extent feature in the gameplay itself? Is it mostly written for writings sake and to the possible and probable amusement of players or will it benefit the player and/or their character, characters?

 

[Kasparov]

Major indeed.

How much will a history of your game's setting written to such an extent feature in the gameplay itself?

Just enough I believe.

Is it mostly written for writings sake and to the possible and probable amusement of players or will it benefit the player and/or their character, characters?

Both. The latter depending on the fact's relevance in a given situation.

 

[Junmarko]

Seems this game will be all AoD failed to do - be fun..By removing strategy boring combat-

AoD offered strategy & C&C mechanics with different ratios of dependency to the player - through class preference. Not sure how removing/disregarding one mechanic entirely makes this superior in any way, there's just half the variety in gameplay, overall.

 

[Kasparov]

Seems this game will be all AoD failed to do - be fun..By removing strategy boring combat-

AoD offered strategy & C&C mechanics with different ratios of dependency to the player - through class preference. Not sure how removing/disregarding one mechanic entirely makes this superior in any way, there's just half the variety in gameplay, overall.

I would argue that strategy is actually very much present in NTWtF. No boring combat, yes sirree.

 

[Kasparov]

Spoiler

Bottom left:

ssh! he´s undercover.

 

[ntonystinson]

Why do we have to be the ugly guy

 

[Junmarko]

I would argue that strategy is actually very much present in NTWtF. No boring combat, yes sirree.

If you say so. But, if it were present, would you have to argue for it?

CRPG strategical mechanics aren't necessarily "combat" focused either - that's just the most common theme. With Invisible Inc, Klei showed how stealth/espionage can be done as a turn-based system - it’s pretty damn impressive too. You want gameplay to present scenarios valuing player tactics, over pure trial and error. CRPGs without it will feel stale, unless you’re a fanatic for the lore, progression won't feel satisfying minus the added layer of challenge.

Edit: Also, do you view turn-based systems as "boring" - or was there something specific about AoD's implementation?

 

[Lexxx20]

Hello, Kaspar! You guys still remember about our questions, right? :D I imagine there's shit ton of work to do, so that's totally okay.

 

[Kasparov]

I would argue that strategy is actually very much present in NTWtF. No boring combat, yes sirree.

If you say so. But, if it were present, would you have to argue for it?

Am I the only one who acknowledges we're discussing a game that has not been published yet? Yes, I have to argue for it until you can verify my claims.

Edit: Also, do you view turn-based systems as "boring" - or was there something specific about AoD's implementation?

No, I like turn-based systems. And while TB combat on its own (XCOM, Invisible Inc) is very enjoyable - my beef with combat in RPGs is that more often than not it is merely a time-sink.
And to top it off it is... without getting into it right now, it is basically not seamless with the rest of the game. It is very rare that the mechanics allow for something of conseuence to happen DURING combat. It is usually before an encounter that something changes (thus leading to combat) or after - when you survive/fail an encounter.

You toot the TB-combat horn, but most of my favourite cRPGs sport RTwP istead of turn-based. OK, Fallout was fine, when you faced a few enemies. With bigger groups of enemies and a lot of NPCs running around, it was again more a time sink and less fun. Torment had combat that acted as a time sink. Tyranny is the best example of the combat's time sinkyness. And The rest of 'em Infinity games were all RTwP.

Edit:
I forwarded you query Lexxx20, but we have a lot going on right now, so no promises

 

[Lexxx20]

Thanks again, Kaspar!

 

[Kalarion]

No, I like turn-based systems. And while TB combat on its own (XCOM, Invisible Inc) is very enjoyable - my beef with combat in RPGs is that more often than not it is merely a time-sink.
And to top it off it is... without getting into it right now, it is basically not seamless with the rest of the game. It is very rare that the mechanics allow for something of conseuence to happen DURING combat. It is usually before an encounter that something changes (thus leading to combat) or after - when you survive/fail an encounter.

You toot the TB-combat horn, but most of my favourite cRPGs sport RTwP istead of turn-based. OK, Fallout was fine, when you faced a few enemies. With bigger groups of enemies and a lot of NPCs running around, it was again more a time sink and less fun. Torment had combat that acted as a time sink. Tyranny is the best example of the combat's time sinkyness. And The rest of 'em Infinity games were all RTwP.

I disagree with most of this. For me, well-developed combat is one of the main reasons I play CRPGs in the first place. It has also been the primary means of engaging these games throughout the genre's history. If you don't like combat in CRPGs because they're getting in the way of what you enjoy it would seem to me you're missing the point of playing them in the first place.

It's always possible your studio will completely shift that paradigm of course. Or at least give us more than a tiny glimpse of what the shift would look like (ala PS:T). I am certainly hopeful for it.

 

[Kasparov]

Spoiler

No, I like turn-based systems. And while TB combat on its own (XCOM, Invisible Inc) is very enjoyable - my beef with combat in RPGs is that more often than not it is merely a time-sink.
And to top it off it is... without getting into it right now, it is basically not seamless with the rest of the game. It is very rare that the mechanics allow for something of conseuence to happen DURING combat. It is usually before an encounter that something changes (thus leading to combat) or after - when you survive/fail an encounter.

You toot the TB-combat horn, but most of my favourite cRPGs sport RTwP istead of turn-based. OK, Fallout was fine, when you faced a few enemies. With bigger groups of enemies and a lot of NPCs running around, it was again more a time sink and less fun. Torment had combat that acted as a time sink. Tyranny is the best example of the combat's time sinkyness. And The rest of 'em Infinity games were all RTwP.

I disagree with most of this. For me, well-developed combat is one of the main reasons I play CRPGs in the first place. It has also been the primary means of engaging these games throughout the genre's history. If you don't like combat in CRPGs because they're getting in the way of what you enjoy it would seem to me you're missing the point of playing them in the first place.

It's always possible your studio will completely shift that paradigm of course. Or at least give us more than a tiny glimpse of what the shift would look like (ala PS:T). I am certainly hopeful for it.

I´m hoping we "can show you the light" :D I agree that well-developed combat is good, but I would also argue that combat is not that well developed in a lot of the franchises. Basically it´s been in a stand-still for over a decade... two decades? More? So unless we have the time and resources to wow you with something ground-breaking in the combat arena, we´ll go for wowing you with what you can do without it in the first place.

 

[Prime Junta]

Again, no offence, but if you like RtwP and felt Torment's combat was a time sink, you mustn't like tactical gameplay much.

Ehhh.... Torment's combat isn't perhaps quite as bad as some people make it out to be, but I do think it was largely, even mostly a time sink. It's just nowhere close to as good as in BG2 or IWD, and a lot of it feels unnecessary. For example there's a quite a bit of combat on the way to Pharod's place, but it doesn't serve any useful purpose. The late game has a lot of grindy combat that just bogs things down too.

 

[Kasparov]

Oh, we'll gladly show you, but I'm confident it would be borderline unethical to market it as a cRPG and not mention that we're doing something different with combat.

I think I should also mention that I started having issues with combat beginning with Pillars of Eternity and I applied the same verdict retroactively to games I'd played earlier in my life. Also - I'm not saying combat doesn't have its merits - it sure does. And for good tactics I boot up XCOM. But for a captivating story I don't enjoy cutting through trash mobs by the hundreds.

Torment's combat was surprizingly fine, actually. Yeah there were moments where you want to die irl before charging into another fucking demon, but I quite enjoyed the skirmishes in Sigil. Like the thug fights in the streets - they made sense. But if the encounter is long and complex but doesn't support the narrative - somehing I felt with AoD for example - it kills the momentum.

EDIT: I´ll clarify that by "killing the momentum" I mean that the story does not progress - nothing meaningful to your character takes place inside a combat encounter. And I think that we have reached a point in games where it is not only possible to do that, but also should be done that way. TToN tried it, but I think they failed with their new crises. The seed is in the ground. Let´s see what sprouts.

 

[Black Angel]

Torment's combat was surprizingly fine, actually. Yeah there were moments where you want to die irl before charging into another fucking demon, but I quite enjoyed the skirmishes in Sigil. Like the thug fights in the streets - they made sense. But if the encounter is long and complex but doesn't support the narrative - somehing I felt with AoD for example - it kills the momentum.

EDIT: I´ll clarify that by "killing the momentum" I mean that the story does not progress - nothing meaningful to your character takes place inside a combat encounter. And I think that we have reached a point in games where it is not only possible to do that, but also should be done that way. TToN tried it, but I think they failed with their new crises. The seed is in the ground. Let´s see what sprouts.

Interesting....

While the majority of the Codex doesn't really like the game I'm about to mention, what do you think of Undertale? There's certainly a LOT of meaningful something happening to you; and other characters, of course; in combat encounters, especially the ones with the major characters. Of course, the game is still full of trash encounters, but for storyfags and people who really liked the game would find every little bits of interaction as something 'meaningful' for the narrative. Of course, you would still have to get going with the bullet-hell gameplay, but still...

 

[Kasparov]

A coworker recommended Undertale to me not long ago, but I haven't had the time to try it yet.

 

[Fenix]

I started having issues with combat beginning with Pillars of Eternity

Agree, combat there is incredibly boring and malfunctioned.

But this

and I applied the same verdict retroactively to games I'd played earlier in my life.

is just psychological fint - boringness of PoE combat just forced you to discover that you not actually interested in combat, and maybe never was.

Btw what about Underrail?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

A coworker recommended Undertale to me not long ago, but I haven't had the time to try it yet.

Try Realms of Arkania HD.

 

[Black Angel]

A coworker recommended Undertale to me not long ago, but I haven't had the time to try it yet.

Well, if I may

Spoiler

basically combat encounters happened in a blobber-like perspective, it's turn-based and there's different options you can choose. In the tutorial, you're recommended to literally talk it out with your opponent (and later on, it's revealed that there's various other interactions available based on the monsters you face). You can also choose to attack during your turn, or use items (and some items would actually change the encounter's/some opponent's behavior). After certain amount of interactions or your opponent loses certain amount of HP, you can either end the encounter by finish them off, sparing them or just flee.

That's why I'm interested to see how would you tackle NTwtF's interesting-stuff-happening-in-'combat' mechanics, since (being a newfag) I can't really remember any other RPGs or even any other games that did that, aside from Undertale. You should definitely check it out, it's yet another cheap indie game, the soundtracks are ABSOLUTELY worth it, and it can be finished in one sitting.

 

[Lady_Error]

I´ll clarify that by "killing the momentum" I mean that the story does not progress - nothing meaningful to your character takes place inside a combat encounter. And I think that we have reached a point in games where it is not only possible to do that, but also should be done that way. TToN tried it, but I think they failed with their new crises. The seed is in the ground. Let´s see what sprouts.

I like the Torment Crises, but I think they made a big mistake by not including more optional fights and areas. inXile has this weird idea that Torment and Bard's Tale 4 need to be complete opposites: one is all about the story, while the other is all about combat. Fargo said this in the latest Codex interview. I think both would benefit from a more balanced approach.

And unless you have a mechanic in mind that can simulate combat mechanics in a sort-of crisis system, I don't see how removing combat altogether will make it a better game.

I mean if you want the story to progress during combat and have something meaningful take place as well, then do it - during combat. Torment has a rudimentary system for that as well, where you can interact with objects and computers during combat and solve it that way.

EDIT: In fact, simulating a police shootout or hostage situation (with the option for snipers, storming the building or not, negotiating, etc.) could be a lot of fun. Just talky-talk is kind of limiting.

 

[Kasparov]

So! I´ll be in Glasgow for the next few days. Any skirt-wearing Codexers thereabout? The weather report promises lots of rain, so a pint or two might be in order this Friday night or Saturday afternoon.

Btw what about Underrail?

I began playing it, but after a few binge days I had to take a break - no end was in sight and work needs to be done. I see they´re updating the base game vigorously, so I might pick it up when I´ve got more time. The system was alright on it´s own, but it doesn´t address my issues either.

Try Realms of Arkania HD.

Put it in a list to check out one day. More likely I´ll catch a few let´s plays while working.

I like the Torment Crises, but I think they made a big mistake by not including more optional fights and areas.
EDIT: In fact, simulating a police shootout or hostage situation (with the option for snipers, storming the building or not, negotiating, etc.) could be a lot of fun. Just talky-talk is kind of limiting.

Crises were awfully grindy. I´m not sure that it was solely the system´s fault - a lot can be done with even a limited system, if you put your mind to it. They were a lot of grind (the rhythm of combat and interactions was dull) and sort of uninspired (very basic/obvious resolutions to problems - no "oh, wow" moments). It could be, I had my expectations way too high. When I first read about it and read about the designs - it really got my mind racing. Seeing the alpha grounded the expectations and the crises didn´t change much during development... That´s what I got from playing so far - I haven´t finished the game yet.

As for talky-talk being limited - we´ll see, won´t we

It´s good that you brought the examples in: shootout/hostage situation. Let´s take the latter. Can you give me an example (or more than one, if there are any) of an existing combat system that would allow for an interesting hostage encounter? X-COM has good tactical combat, but the hostage situations are fairly rote after you´ve finished one of those missions. I´m not sure you can.

All of them would have the game in "combat mode" until certain conditions are met and then the player would lose control because /insert cut-scene/ after which you might have a dialogue sequence or return to "combat mode". Figuratively: instead of a skilled string quartet you get a single shitty street musician picking them ad-hoc instruments up one-by-one and tooting and slapping them one after the other. If done very well - you might get some kind of emotional attachment to the... let´s call it "combat narrative", but more often than not - you won´t. Because combat and narrative are separate from the get-go.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Put it in a list to check out one day. More likely I´ll catch a few let´s plays while working.

Don't get yourself killed by the meme!

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

Hey look! A game that has 10 times better graphics then TToN! And it didn't took them 4 years? How CUM?