We are talking about actual games here, not theoretical cases though. Out of them, BG2 is the most recognized by far (beside PST, which, as you wisely suggested, should not be a part of this discussion).
No, I am talking about the systems as implemented in the games, not discussing how the games utilize the implementation of the system. There is an important difference between the two things. If one game that uses one system is more popular than another, this doesn't make the system worse or better, or more or less exploitable. If we were talking about AD&D2 irrespective of the IE games that use it, as a purely PnP system, the whole argument becomes irrelevant, because the DM can decide to emphasize Attributes in a variety of ways in which the games do not.
Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it is difficult to compare.
Pushing perception for accuracy gives you 1 point of Accuracy per point spent, which will remain a static bonus, and will diminish in importance as you level up. This is no longer an opinion, but a statement of fact. 18/00 will give a warrior class character a bonus of +3 to THAC0 which will be a 15% bonus,
forever. Not a diminishing in importance number, like Accuracy is. That +3 will always be 15% of the 20 you are rolling for attack. Though yes, the warrior character's THAC0 will drop further and further as he levels up.
The last statement is purely your opinion though. I've found it very usefull to push Perception for Accuracy on my character in PoE. And I was very happy I actually had the possibility to influence it (different from the frankly retarded 18/00).
Yes, it's my opinion, as indicated by the "seems to me" bit.
Apples and oranges again. In BG physical classes increase their damage potential by gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and extra APR (+equipment), in PoE trough gaining levels, increasing chance to hit and crit and Abilities which expand their combat options, magnitude and/or area of effect (+equipment).
So...? They increase their "damage potential" - you have to explain what this variable means btw - in the same way then:
[*]
Warrior classes in AD&D2: "gain levels, i.e. reduce THAC0", "add APRs", "improve equipment", "receive new abilities" (why omit that for AD&D2 warrior classes?). Direct improvements to damage do not come as you increase levels though!
[*]
All classes in PoE: "gain levels, i.e. increase Accuracy", "improve equipment", "receive new abilities" - That's all.
Where the equipment makes a lot more difference in PoE IMO (Recovery time reductions, many on hit/crit effects).
- Statement of opinion, I won't argue. I should note though, that people seem to bring up BGII when convenient as a game which boosts characters too much through items, then say that "equipment makes a lot more difference in PoE", or a variation of that statement, again when convenient...
.
Also... why do you bring 3% here? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Dex you need 15. Then its already 15%?
What did you not understand in what I said? Maybe you confused which system's Dexterity I was referring to. I said:
in AD&D2 advancing warrior classes past thresholds in character level increases your Attacks per round by a rate of 30-50%. Quite more notable than the 3% action speed Dexterity gives you.
As your warrior-class character increases in level, his APR increase by 30-50%:
Warrior Class level | Attacks
1-6 1 per round
7-12 3 attacks / 2 rounds (odd rounds 1 attack, even rounds 2 attacks)
13 and above 2 per round
This is what I am saying is more significant than PoE's Dexterity bonus of 3% per point. This is roughly like your attack speed increasing by 50% once your PoE Fighter,Barbarian,Paladin,Ranger gets to level 7, and then your attack speed increasing twofold (i.e. 100%) at level 13. Quite more noticeable jump than 3% per point can give you, especially when taking into account that this 3% per point bonus is with you from the start. In PoE you never get that "Hey, I just improved
bigleague" feeling.
#Just "Infinity Engine feels". because we were going for "Infinity Engine feels" with this game, right? At least the lead designer said so. During the... Kickstarter...? Oh...
You seem to have missed entirely the fact that a club has Fast Recovery, while a Mace has Average Recovery.
I would have taken it into account if anyone knew what these weapon recovery speeds meant. The equivalent in AD&D2 is speed factor, which is documented and we can see how it works.
Also, again, why do you bring 3%? In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17. Then its already 21%?
I thought it's obvious that I'm replying to the (false) statement "The relative value of MIG is actually higher on low-base damage weapons since DR is fixed, not % based in PoE". What does Strength have to do here, I'm not comparing Might vs Strength, I'm comparing the damage bonus from Might between two weapons, in order to prove that the statement is false.
Also, it is not true that "In AD&D in order to get ANYTHING from Str you need 17". In AD&D2, in order to not get
maluses to THAC0
or Damage, you have to be at 8. You get other things, but they are not much relevant in the IE games, so I'll ignore them. So yes, you are getting something by being at 8-9. And at 10-11, 12-13... True, the first thing noticeable in combat comes at... 16 (+1 to damage), but still not 17 as you claim.
Again, it's a bit apples and oranges. At 18 points, per point 4 less AC is probably worth more then 8 Deflection. But at 15, -1 AC isn't really better then +5 Deflection.
Yes - the value invested Dexterity points in AD&D2, relative to the value of invested Resolve points in PoE is increasingly larger. But I think you are missing that in AD&D2 you start at 8 as a neutral value, and add from there, and in the IE games you usually spend more points than you do in PoE, due to rerolls. That's an opportunity given to the player to choose how difficult or easy he wants to make the game for himself. So yes, direct comparisons of the value of points isn't very reliable. But the comparison of the gains provided by one point is.
But PoE's systems are more complex, layered. Armors in PoE provide DR, not defesive adjustment. Resolve also affects Concentration.
Yes, it's just that this doesn't seem to make the game more engaging or combat more nail-biting. Whether it's due solely to the system, is disputable, as Parabalus said.
Early on try fighting a group of enemies with 3 Resolve. Good luck! Admittedly later on High Meditation buff can help greatly (but Opportunity cost!) and you're also more difficult to hit.
I already commented on how bonus Deflection from Resolve becomes increasingly less important. It follows that it's more important in the beginning of the game. I have not disputed that, so nothing to argue with here.
Also it's the most prevalent "RP" stat. You want to compare value of Resolve with Charisma?
Again, I'm not commenting on how stats are utilized for reactivity, only for combat.
Well, obviously, if you only have 1 stat that makes a difference, pushing it will be a priority. A no-brainer even. Doesn't mean it's IMPACT will favorably compare to the combined impact of PoE's attributes. That's something I don't like about AD&D. I like character building to have choices - tough ones. Big opportunity costs.
I like impactful attribute scores and also attribute scores which are indeed more important for certain characters than for others, and not superficially. You can't have your cake "impactful attribute scores", and eat it "every build is viable", that's just misguided or marketing talk. I don't want to go to the extreme of having dump stats.
But that's not the point. My goal and the reason for the whole argument was that Parabalus said that ability scores in PoE are more impactful per point as well as as a whole than ability scores in AD&D2. I am certain this is not true all of the time, and I'm convinced this is not true in some instances, for which I gave examples.