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Do you think I'd like NWN2: MotB?

Shodan

Novice
Joined
Jun 23, 2006
Messages
30
I hate: every single BioWare game, post-Dagerfall Bethesda, Fable

I love: Wizardry, Ultima, Might & Magic, ToEE, VtM:B, Fallout 1/2, Arcanum, Gothic 1/2, PST, Thief 1/2, Deus Ex, Ultima Underworld....

I assumed I'd dislike NWN2 and its expansions but I hear great things about MotB. Do you think I'd like it?
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
Messages
626
Probably.

I just finished it now and everything comes together in the final chapter with a pleasingly large amount of attention to detail which actually makes me feel like playing through a second and third time to see what might have been. Also, I don't consider myself to have completed the game, but if there is any ending that is sunshine and rainbows for all I haven't found it yet, and I'm not sure if it's even possible considering the way NWN2 ends and MotB begins. A definite plus for the game as far as I care.


Also Kaelyn seems kind of foolish for a 20+ wisdom charact

speaking of everything coming together, is there a sunshine, lollipops and rainbows ending? the selfish and selfless options both involve a good amount of emotional and physical pain from various people.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
I don't think there's been anyone yet who liked PS:T and disliked MotB.

Most people's complaints came from the spirit meter, but if you've suffered through the Wizardry games...
 

OSK

Arcane
Patron
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Jan 24, 2007
Messages
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Mask of the Betrayer has a lot of Planescape: Torment vibes. It has a strong story and memorable characters with a nice helping of choices and consequences. Most of the game's faults have to do with the use of the NWN2 engine, but it's not bad enough to ruin the game.

Personally, I think it's the best RPG released since Troika went under.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
224
Having just beaten the game, here's my quick take.

Everything gameplay related in NWN2 is awful. The camera is awful and makes exploring a drag, a feeling furthered by the frequent loading delays. NPCs and enemies are idiotic, and controlling your party is a huge pain in the ass. Characters lag behind, rush ahead, and generally do whatever they can to screw things up. There's too much loot, and without a lot of knowledge of AD&D rules it can be difficult to figure out what's good or not. Collecting items takes too long, but if you suffer at all from the normal level of gamer compulsion, you won't be able to stop. The crafting is just a lame waste of time that makes the game easier for players who don't need it to be any easier. Inventory management is a bitch. You have too much gold for all but the most expensive items to matter, and in any event you never need them. Combat is easy but requires some micromanagement and is so epileptically sparkly that, unlike PS:T, you can't just sit and enjoy the show.

Graphics are theoretically decent, but are often ruined by the shoddy camera and other glitches. Most cutscenes will have the camera facing the wrong direction or a companion standing in its way, so dramatic speeches will usually be accompanied by a mephit flapping its wings and shaking its ass in your face. The ragdoll equipment means that your character will be wearing a poncy hat or a silly mask, that you'll seldom see your companion's faces for helmets, and--due to spell effects--when you do they'll often be blotchily textured stone. All this combines to undermine the character's depth--when you actually get to look at two characters conversing, the graphics provide a surprising benefit that is lacking in the usual mephit-ass radio play.

All this combines to create an enormous series of impediments to what is one of the best series of RPG dialogues I've yet played. While I think PS:T has a better story (and MOTB is also largely derivative of PS:T), MOTB may actually be better at providing dialogues with interesting skill checks and meaningful consequences. The writing is stellar, the plot is strong, the characters are rich and interesting. Especially, though, the ways in which you can interact with people, the cleverly hidden options, are all wonderful. All this combines with really great voice acting that sells the characters very well.

It's a real shame that the game wasn't put together better. With a good camera and combat at KOTOR quality (which is to say, terrible but tolerable), without the loot whoring and load times, it probably would be tied with Fallout and PS:T for my favorite RPG ever. As it stands, it's a significant notch below those.

Bottom line, you should probably play.

I'm also going to go out on a crazy limb and suggest that you use a character editor to give yourself a pile of fat loot for all your party members and then just ignore the treasure along the way. But I'm sure people will get indignant at that suggestion. . . .

--EDIT--

As to whether to play NWN2 OC first, I don't know. I did, and it was really painful to get through (especially the first third), but the MOTB experience is noticeably better for having played through the OC. Characters from the first game have a role in the second, and the protagonist's arc spreads through both games in a meaningful way.
 
Joined
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Messages
626
I'm also going to go out on a crazy limb and suggest that you use a character editor to give yourself a pile of fat loot for all your party members and then just ignore the treasure along the way. But I'm sure people will get indignant at that suggestion. . . .

+1

after I used 3 brilliant essences of all damage types except for earth (this was roughly 1/2 a chapter into the game), my str based fighter with epic weapon specialisation, +8 regeneration and monkey grip never got below 70% health, and rarely took longer than 6 seconds to kill any single thing, and this was supressing the hunger on hardest difficulty. A dex based pure bard with song of requiem can do plenty of damage and is very difficult to kill. Can't think of any class or party combination to make the game even remotely difficult to be honest, anyone that says that any part of the combat or the spirit eating is either a liar or an idiot.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
224
The only thing that ever gave me trouble with the spirit meter was making sure that my companions didn't spastically kill near death undead before I could grant them Final Rest. But I went the suppressing route, and I understand it's quite different if your hunger grows.
 

hiver

Guest
I played MoTB without going through NWN2 because i just couldnt do it again.
Created a Warlock, then took one level of spirit shaman then tried to upgrade with fighter and warlock levels.
Before the end i somehow lost the ability to increase warlock levels somehow...

Combat was too high level and every battle tends to be a special effect fest.
Meteor bombardment and the rest of the high level spells to kill some ordinary enemy. Every time.

And then i had to sleep a lot which made my hunger kill me every ten seconds or so.
I struggled with that almost till the end of the game.
But i dont know what people expected? To have a void sucking life out of you and eating souls without any consequence?
What would be the point of that?


Its a good game but i guess it feels much better if you play through NWN2 first.
 

Texas Red

Whiner
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
7,044
"And then i had to sleep a lot which made my hunger kill me every ten seconds or so.
I struggled with that almost till the end of the game.
But i dont know what people expected? To have a void sucking life out of you and eating souls without any consequence?
What would be the point of that?"

That's not a valid complaint. I played as an evil cleric who consumed everything and managed just fine with 100 craving. I actually really like this system because it makes you think instead of just resting after every fight.
 

fastpunk

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Mar 31, 2007
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under the sun
@hiver: Dude, you do not multi-class warlocks if you want them to be good. Keep it pure all the way and you'll rock. Ok, maybe you can add a bit of fighter in there, for battle caster and medium armor proficiency but that's it. Also, you might have lost your ability to advance as a warlock due to alignment shifts. The class is restricted to all evil, chaotic neutral or true neutral.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
Dicksmoker said:

Yes.

Basically, a good deal of the elements in MotB are very reminiscent of PST. The idea of a personal quest that has some far-reaching consequences and involves many people, the idea of reincarnation (sort of), and one single entity having many aspects (sort of). Unlike the way Bioware does their games, however, you never feel that it's recycled exactly. MotB has the same vibes in the way that KotOR2 has the same vibes as PST; it bears the markings of Avellone. The characters are their own people, and those I thought would be carbon copies of earlier ones turn out quite different. I expected Fall-from-Grace Redux in Kaelyn, but that's not the case.

MotB also brings up interesting issues in the FR/D&D settings. Unlike KotOR2, it does so--introducing a thoughtful, intelligent perspective to a setting that's anything but thoughtful and intelligent--without seeming to clash with the rest of the canon.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
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Location
Urkanistan
MotB also moved from the extremely boring Sword Coast and showed that DnD games aren't always about stupid elves and cliche dwarves.

You must play MotB if you haven't done so yet. I was surprised that the game was pretty long and consistent for something that was only a bit more than a year in development.

Lesifoere said:
Unlike KotOR2, it does so--introducing a thoughtful, intelligent perspective to a setting that's anything but thoughtful and intelligent--without seeming to clash with the rest of the canon.

Personally I've found Avellone's Star Wars to be much more better and well thought out than Lucas' Star Wars.
So clashing with the canon isn't always a bad thing if done better.
 

hiver

Guest
Dark Individual said:
That's not a valid complaint. I played as an evil cleric who consumed everything and managed just fine with 100 craving. I actually really like this system because it makes you think instead of just resting after every fight.
Its not a complaint. i really liked that.
Ofcourse its a bit ..strange..to be dying every few minutes because my hunger level would eat my hit points constantly most of the time - and then just getting up but thats the fault of NWN2 ways of handling death as in "you are only sleeping if any of your companions is still alive" mechanic.

but i think its more then appropriate concerning the plot and what you are.
Its a freaking curse - it should have serious consequences.

And as many people said its not really a big problem to slow it down after a while when you figure out what to do.


fastpunk said:
@hiver: Dude, you do not multi-class warlocks if you want them to be good. Keep it pure all the way and you'll rock. Ok, maybe you can add a bit of fighter in there, for battle caster and medium armor proficiency but that's it. Also, you might have lost your ability to advance as a warlock due to alignment shifts. The class is restricted to all evil, chaotic neutral or true neutral.
Yeah,... that was probably it.
Man these 3.5 rules never agreed with me.
It just looks so confusing to me that it prevents me from delving into details too much.

Great game nevertheless with a lot of meaningful and well executed choices.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
Messages
626
Are you supposed to get spirit essence from things you stab to death? Codex review implies that you get them if you're evil by devouring, and I suspect my game is bugged.
 

Helton

Arcane
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
6,789
Location
Starbase Delta
Uh, not sure. You get essences from combat and if you've never seen a spirit essence you might assume all essences are spirit essences, but they aren't. But if you're getting an item actually called "spirit essence"... There might have been a couple in loot, I don't remember.
 

Texas Red

Whiner
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
7,044
M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E said:
Are you supposed to get spirit essence from things you stab to death? Codex review implies that you get them if you're evil by devouring, and I suspect my game is bugged.

Essences are used to enchant weapons and armor. It's not the same thing you devour. You have to play a little further to become fully cursed and get devouring abilities and a meter.
 

hiver

Guest
I think you get spirit essences if you use your devour to actually kill an enemy or from particular enemies.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
skyway said:
Personally I've found Avellone's Star Wars to be much more better and well thought out than Lucas' Star Wars.
So clashing with the canon isn't always a bad thing if done better.

Oh, sure. I think Lucas' Star Wars is pretty boring and cheesy; there're even bits of Expanded Universe novels that are a lot better than the movies. But I thought it interesting that, in MotB's case, it actually manages not to clash with the source at all. Then again, PS:T too was AD&D, so...

You get spirit essences from devouring spirits/undead and elementals.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
People, stop comparing MotB to PS:T. You're showing MotB to be a game that merely emulates or stays in the shadow of PS:T.

The truth is that MotB brings a whole nest of fresh ideas to the RPG table. It's a whole new and different kind of a game that we have not seen before.

First off, the element of Shadow plane areas and Dreamscapes. This game has worlds within worlds, between which you keep shifting back and forth. You have to find the right portals or the keys to those places, and in these alternative worlds, you find objects or people whom you couldn't have found physically.

Secondly, it's a setting that we have not seen in a game before: the cold forest lands of Rashemi, with simple tribal people who live in wooden houses. It's a place inhabited by spirits, sentient animals, and witches, and people with a deep folklore, who often tell tales of the brothers Eveshi and Akachi, devout priests of the god of death, who is the main deity in these lands. It's wholly different from all the "berks" and "guv'nahs" of PS:T.

Thirdly, unlike PS:T, there is a whole cascading list of choices that can open up from a single action. Giving into your hunger allows you to receive the devour soul ability from the cannibal tribe, which can in turn be used in many many quests, and can change all their outcomes dramatically.

Lastly, PS:T did not offer nearly as many ways to build your character, nor did it have as many skill and attribute checks, in both dialogue, and non-dialogue situations, like observing items. Every single skill can open up a very useful option. There are dialogue options which open up from your alignment and class options.

Besides, it is a less linear game than PS:T, because MotB has three plotlines, and you can do any and as much of them, and all of them are incidental to opening options that change the outcome of the main story.
 

deranged

Cipher
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Nov 8, 2008
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513
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Governed by clowns
Shodan said:
I hate: every single BioWare game, post-Dagerfall Bethesda, Fable

I love: Wizardry, Ultima, Might & Magic, ToEE, VtM:B, Fallout 1/2, Arcanum, Gothic 1/2, PST, Thief 1/2, Deus Ex, Ultima Underworld....

I assumed I'd dislike NWN2 and its expansions but I hear great things about MotB. Do you think I'd like it?

Why do you hate the former and why do you like the latter? Until you give a more detailed argument how can anyone advise you? I see that you have a strong preference for turn-based combat. If a descent combat system (although I don't really see how Gothic would fall into this category) is a major concern don't even bother. Most of the time you won't be able to see a thing partly because of the camera getting in the way and partly because of the spell-induced massacre that will fog everything on the screen.
If a deep and evolving story is more your cup of tea then by all means go ahead. You're in for the ride of a lifetime.

MOTB is probably the greatest high-level adventure ever written for the computer. It will blow your mind away. The problem is that most of the time it feels exactly like an adventure written and then adapted to the NWN2 engine. It is as if it was pasted upon.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
Shodan said:
I hate: every single BioWare game, post-Dagerfall Bethesda, Fable

I love: Wizardry, Ultima, Might & Magic, ToEE, VtM:B, Fallout 1/2, Arcanum, Gothic 1/2, PST, Thief 1/2, Deus Ex, Ultima Underworld....

I assumed I'd dislike NWN2 and its expansions but I hear great things about MotB. Do you think I'd like it?

I hate: you
 

racofer

Thread Incliner
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Apr 5, 2008
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Your ignore list.
Terrible camera and UI, get ready for major headaches. Also get a 5000$ computer so it doesn't drop bellow 10 fps all the time and you are good to go.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
Messages
626
go to nwn2 ignvault and search for charlie ui. place it in override. Once I used it I never wanted to be without it.

Alos it's much cheaper to just lower the graphic settings, but I think I understand what you're saying. NWN 2 is not very efficient for the quality of graphics.
 

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