Game News Dragon Age and day-n-night cycle

[triCritical]

As I was quoted elsewhere in this thread, the decision is whether or not to have more areas or whether or not to have a day/night cycle. And while someone can try to take the skewed view that not including day/night cycles means we are willingly giving up quality, I disagree. Having a longer game where you aren't re-using level art all the time is surely part of quality, too, no?

Huh? Can you please tell me how this conclusion

"is whether or not to have more areas"

follows from this premise,

"or whether or not to have a day/night cycle."

Now that you make 3D games why can you just turn the lights on and them turn them off. Is it that your engine is so antiquated that these features are not built in. Given I do not work much with textures and I can't really guess on why there would be that much extra work to be done, so that you can't add new areas if you have an advanced lighting system like NWN (lol).

Please elaborate.

BTW, long games are not higher quality, see PoR2. Sometimes, game in which you are given the oppurtunity to explore a role and interactively have an impact in the environment can often times add replay value, which will yield many more hours of game time.

Example Arcanum long and and the ending parts that seemed to draw showed lack of quality. Whereas FO short, was quality through and through. BG2 is another example, which seemed to just fall apart into a annoying Diablo like hack and slash once you went to sea. PS:T is another example. I know I know I know.... People often don't even finish the game once! But you want to know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE LONG AND BORING!

 

[Twinfalls]

A lot of this argument would be avoided if Bioware simply admitted they make Adventures, and not Role Playing Games.

A RPG allows you to assume you are the character being controlled - that 'you are there', which, since Ultima set the standard, means freedom, day+night cycles, schedules, etc etc.

I especially share Rosh's anger that companies like Bioware and their lickspittle partners in the media keep calling outright crap like LOTR and (good) adventures like KOTOR 'RPGs'.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I hate to break it to you, Twinfalls, but RPGs do not equate to having day/night cycles and mundane NPC schedules. I couldn't care less about those things as rarely do they add anything of value to a role playing game. It's like saying all of Robert Jordan's writing on the descriptions of braids adds the values 'detailed and interesting' to his stupid Wheel of Time novels, when in fact, all they add is just another layer of flowery crap no reader could even give a rat's ass about because of how little they contribute to the storyline or to the characters. They're just in the books to make the pages thicker and to try to make up for the book's startling lack of characterization and plot, much as the day/night cycles and NPC schedules in Gothic attempt to make up for the game's awful dialogue, lack of dialogue choices, limited locations, horrible storyline and its distinct lack of role-playing ability.

I'm not rather enthused to play another farce of an RPG that attempts to replace a good storyline with interesting characters for NPC schedules and a worthless day/night cycle that forces you to wait for hours at a time for a shop to open just so you can turn in your quest. Think about it: since this layer of nonsense adds time to your stay in the game world by forcing you to wait for NPC schedules, it's really not too different from being forced to wade through several paragraphs of hair braiding descriptions just to get to the next point in the storyline.

This, I could definitely do without.

 

[tilting_msh]

Rosh is one of those creepy guys that take the internet waaaaaaayyyy too seriously. You don't see them often, but when you do, oh man, what a sight. I always picture him frothing at the mouth, taking 45 minutes to compose his sentence-by-sentence quoted rebuttal for everything Gaider says, trying his damndest to look as e-cool and e-tough as possible, so as to uphold his meticulously crafted and obsessively maintained image as a internet forum badass. And then every once and awhile, for good measure, he'll remind you that he actually killed somebody IN REAL LIFE. Just in case you forgot. Or something.

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh come off it, Judas. Rosh simply has passion, and isn't afraid to show it. There's a saying: "No happy person ever changed history".

Exitium - sure, an RPG is about more than just night/day cycles. 'Fable' has night/day cycles, but to me, it is no RPG.

It's an adventure.

As is KOTOR.

 

[Jinxed]

I like day/night time if it actually leads somewhere. Like quests that can only be done at night or when the npc leaves the area. Gothic had just a little bit of that and most of the potential was unfortunetly wasted.

 

[tilting_msh]

Oh come off it, Judas. Rosh simply has passion, and isn't afraid to show it. There's a saying: "No happy person ever changed history".

Why should he be afraid to show his "passion"? It's the internet, what's there to be afraid of? It's not like Rosh should be commended because he attacks Gaider every time he decides to post; how hard is it to call somebody names on an internet forum?

Besides, Rosh has long crossed the line of "passion" and moved soundly into the realm of "bitter" and "childish". And who in their right mind gets that worked up over video games, anyways? Rosh doesn't like Bio games - fine. Don't you think it a bit odd that this dislike of Bioware's style of game has become a freakish, obsessive personal vendetta against a particular dev?

Or maybe it's just me, I dunno.

 

[Jinxed]

But his posts always make a good read don't they?

 

[MarFish]

one word

rabid

It attacks the brain, but that's evident./

 

[ichpokhudezh]

ichpokhudezh, back off, Kaeto, until you can learn that the basic MUD used to do calculations like all of that, and more, all at the same time, for up to hundreds of users, while running on a 486. Thank you for baking and faking your response, but I would rather work towards using better methods rather than excusing superfluous and sloppy work that is typical of BioWare's development methods. Especially the point about their design already feeling hollow, they aren't even bothering to make the world seem like something other than a single-player MMORPG.

Rosh, you are a dumb fuckwit.
Congratulations.

I'm quite sure now - you don't fucking know ANYTHING about development. Especially, in regards to more or less modern 3d stuff, loaded up to the neck with animations and timings. Check out this faq to see what kind of problems will a mud server have with a lot of moving chars and objects.

Just to give you something to chew on and ponder about, check mailing lists and source code for some 3d shells for rogue-likes. And (sanity check follows) try imagine selling some ugly looking game in a box? You wouldn't happen to think that slogans like 'breath-taking pathfinding', 'scrupulous financial management, material resources shortage and perfect timing of NPC interaction' will suffice for a publisher/marketing dept?

Instead of spewing around your inane blatherings, you'd better start with reading the responses others are giving to you. I am specifically referring to this your constant wondering:

Actually, it was more akin to why are you having to make an entirely new map, unless the programming is to be as expected?

So, to sum myself, get some real knowledge, examples and facts instead of painting with your broad brush a gloomy picture of a stiking contrast between arcane skill of omnipotent creators of yore and modern decadent lowest-common-denominator-appealing sub-par scribblers.

EDIT: What seems to be bizarre to me, though, is that such mostly superfluous and visual detail as day/night cycle attracts so much attention, whereas the thread on combat mechanics (which is a cornerstone of RPGs, isn't it?) is not adorned with multitude of insightful posts and lively discussion.

EDIT2: BTW, if day/night conditions would have had some broad implementation such as they would affect combat, NPC behavior/attire/etc, locations configuration (alarms/guards/closed doors/etc) that could have been good and MIGHT help roleplaying/immersion. Simple fucking checks aren't worthi it, imo.

 

[Stark]

I hate to break it to you, Twinfalls, but RPGs do not equate to having day/night cycles and mundane NPC schedules. I couldn't care less about those things as rarely do they add anything of value to a role playing game. It's like saying all of Robert Jordan's writing on the descriptions of braids adds the values 'detailed and interesting' to his stupid Wheel of Time novels, when in fact, all they add is just another layer of flowery crap no reader could even give a rat's ass about because of how little they contribute to the storyline or to the characters. They're just in the books to make the pages thicker and to try to make up for the book's startling lack of characterization and plot, much as the day/night cycles and NPC schedules in Gothic attempt to make up for the game's awful dialogue, lack of dialogue choices, limited locations, horrible storyline and its distinct lack of role-playing ability.

i disagree. comparison between RJ's lame writing to NPC schedule is unfair. NPC schedule, while not necessarily add anything to role-playing, add alot to suspension of disbelief in games. Consider the following: between the rather static NPC in MW and the NPC schedules in Gothic, which is preferred? If you play as as a rouge stealing from peasant's house, NPC schedule in Gothic actually do matter.

I would rather not get into debate about the horrible story line and awful dialog (it's probably a matter of taste) but you'e certainly wrong about "limited locations" in both Gothics.

 

[Stark]

I mean, if the idea of reality in a game being an illusion truly offends you, then perhaps you need to stick to Gothic and Morrowind-like games, period.

At least Gothic managed to have some feeling of worl design (you know, it might be because they choose to NOT stick that magical item in the breakable barrel next to the beggar). Your games are about as soul-less and cliché as your writing and characters.

I also notice that you have tried, and failed, to dodge mention of Ultima. Yes, that still plants anything BioWare has ever done deep into the shitter.

I agree with Rosh here. it's strange to pick on Gothic's NPC schedule while there's totally no mention of Ultima 7. what's wrong with NPC schedule in Gothic? how is not having it a good thing? And to hear D.Gaider saying it as if it's something not worth having... it's nothing less than dissapointing.

and i disagree in general of not implementing it. the concept of NPC schedule can be carried further to have true role playing opp. Thieving (as i mentioned above) is already a case in point.

you know, if you want emergent gameplay it has to start somewhere. a few generations of games would pass before we'll see something like that to happen. how is not having NPC schedule going to allow it to progress to that point?

.. but how necessary is that to have a good story with lots of options for the player?

heh.

 

[Volourn]

"A lot of this argument would be avoided if Bioware simply admitted they make Adventures, and not Role Playing Games."

Why would they lie? RPGs is about playing your character, and being able to make meaninful choices that effect the game world and characetrs in said game world. In BIO games, you most certainly can do that. To think otherwise is to flat out be stupid. Period.

Are they exactly like the FOs? No; but still BIO games have what it takes to be a RPG. Hate to break it to you; but role-playing does not = tb combat nor does it = avoiding all combat. Those are myths started by dinks like Rosh, and Tri.

As for NPC schedules, I like them ok. They *can* add to making a world feel alive; but as Saint Proverbiius pointed out; they can also be an annoyance.


That is all. For now.

 

[AlanC9]

you know, if you want emergent gameplay it has to start somewhere. a few generations of games would pass before we'll see something like that to happen. how is not having NPC schedule going to allow it to progress to that point?

That's right ---if you want emergent gameplay. Who said that's the necessary goal for RPGs? Besides folks here, that is.

I don't see anything you can do with NPC schedules that can't be faked with targeted scripting.

As for day/night cycles, it depends on the game system. I can see why they didn't bother in KotOR, since that system simply didn't rely on resource expenditure and resting.

 

[Twinfalls]

That is all. For now.

Well thank shit for that, Volourn!

 

[Neverwhere]

"A lot of this argument would be avoided if Bioware simply admitted they make Adventures, and not Role Playing Games."

Why would they lie? RPGs is about playing your character, and being able to make meaninful choices that effect the game world and characetrs in said game world. In BIO games, you most certainly can do that. To think otherwise is to flat out be stupid. Period.

I never saw a point in this semantic debate, but I would rather be minded to agree with Volourn. If we go back in time, the Spellcasting games were "adventures". So was the King's Quest series. The Ultimas were "CRPGs". So were the Gold Box games. And as much as I adore the latter, in terms of storyline and "ability to play your character", they were about as complex as Diablo.

The term "CRPG" has always stood for a rather broad range of games, from tactical fighters with a fantasy- or scifi-background to story-driven games with stats. I find it rather odd that people now assert that a type of game that came a lot later (world simulation) actually is what makes a hard-core CRPG. Furthermore, this seems to be at odds with what PnP RPGs are about. Or maybe I just haven't had the opportunity to witness a PnP SIM-"RPG". I'm sure that this must be the peak of "immershiun", hard drugs presupposed.

 

[Twinfalls]

Fair points, and I do agree that people like me are being perhaps a little precious with the 'only these certain games are *real* rpgs'.

That said, I do think there's something to this. Behind my saying KOTOR is not an RPG is a kind of frustration that big shiny bucket-load-selling titles (LOTR, Fable) are such basic hack-n-slash titles, yet are stamped RPG, when the real state of the art in RPG (eg Gothic) is left to small studios. It's knowing that an RPG could be so much more than KOTOR, given what Ultima VII was all those years ago.

Also, there's just something about being able to actually do things like eat and sleep, that makes you feel like you are the avatar, rather than just controlling it. Like you are playing that role, rather than controlling that character, or worse, merely guiding it through a story (at least adventures, which are essentially this, generally have lots of difficult puzzles).

 

[RGE]

While I think that it can be interesting to see an area both during the day and the night, I suppose that night cycles are pretty useless. Realistically most PCs would sleep during most nights, and thus they wouldn't spend much time adventuring when it's dark outside. But having to walk across a city map to find an inn would quickly become torture, and having to camp at inopportune moments would be annoying. So as long as special night areas could be created, I don't think I'd miss day/night cycles too much.

And NPC cycles are not what I remember from Ultima IV and V, even though I now realise that they were indeed there, annoying as they could be. I always liked the way Diablo handled the NPCs - just stick them outside their buildings for easy access. I never felt that the Diablo NPCs lacked personality.

As for emergent gameplay, I think I'd be fine with limiting the player's options to actions for which there are coded responses. That would include not allowing the PC to massacre innocent bystanders unless the village will be properly dispersed and rumours will spread of the evil PC that's attacking the land. Sure enough, it might feel limiting to not have such an option, but it feels empty when the option is there and not suitably followed up on. So of two bad things it doesn't matter much to me which one is chosen.

Once a firm base has been created, where every allowed action has appropriate responses, the building of a story can begin. That's how I see it. But the masses want railroaded stories with pretty scenery, so I'll just stick to building NWN areas that will never amount to anything. It's real easy to daydream about the virtual worlds that I'd like to create, and since those dreams are probably more satisfying than what the real thing would be like, I guess I should give up on real CRPGs and focus on dreamfodder instead. Finally I realise how much like porn computer games can be! :D

 

[Stark]

That's right ---if you want emergent gameplay. Who said that's the necessary goal for RPGs?

if you want the game world to react to your actions (as a good rpg is suppose to be) then emergent gameplay is needed. a particular gang terrorise a particular business district. emergent behaviour dictates normal people avoid that particular district. now you as PC clear out those gangs, and as time passes emergent behaviour will dictate NPC to return to this business district to buy stuff and commerce flourish again. cause and effect. one of the important element we expect from traditional crpg.

Besides folks here, that is.

actually i think it's lack of imagination among gamers. to be frank i'm happy with what BethSoft is doing with their radient AI, and what The Sims can do indicates the technology we're talking about, is here. we need more people to invests in these new technologies to progress further. what do you want? prettier graphics and same gameplay that has stagnated since the days of ultima 5? emergent gameplay is what i think will revolutionize crpg, and once someone has done it, no one will want to go back to scripting.

look, we can expect photo-realistic graphics these days, which we wouldn't dare imagine few years ago. why is expecting emergent gameplay be any different?

I don't see anything you can do with NPC schedules that can't be faked with targeted scripting.

i agree only up to a point. scripting is not the long term solution. the scripter would need to consider every scenario and script them in. also, scripting do not scale very well for larger games.

 

[RGE]

emergent gameplay is what i think will revolutionize crpg, and once someone has done it, no one will want to go back to scripting.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whatever story you'll get from emergent gameplay can be scripted much easier and thus a better/longer story can be scripted with the same resources. People still watch movies and read books, despite the availibility of computer games, and a more scripted game is just closer to that than a game with more freedom.

Then there's the issue of brains. Perhaps it requires too many geniuses to create a world that reacts perfectly to a reasonable amount of optional actions? It's easy enough when there are only two steps (kill badguys -> village flourishes), but things such as rumours and recognition would be expected to spread like rings on the water, and affect a larger part of the game. Or did the PC kill the badguys without revealing their identity? Then there should be a rumour of a masked or otherwise unknown vigilante.

In the end one simple conflict becomes as complex as an entire game, and as a gamemaker you'd have to decide where to simplify and what to focus on. NWN is emergent - when you kill stuff you become better at killing stuff. Kill good aligned commoners and you become evil. Ohh. Emergence of a villainous hero! :shock: (Actually, in the first chapter there were some responses when the PC cleared out badguys from three of the city sections, but I don't think any new NPCs actually showed up in those areas. They just went away from the central area.)

 

[Stark]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whatever story you'll get from emergent gameplay can be scripted much easier and thus a better/longer story can be scripted with the same resources.

i disagree. remember what i said about the problem of scaling for scripting and scripting being not a long term solution? for every new game/mission you would need to script for new scenarios. with NPC reacting to surroundings it is reusable once you defined the set of behaviours and receptors. You can reuse it again and again for future games too (much like graphic libraries). A further consideration is the reduction in testing: you're reusing the same AI library for past game. there's a great deal of reduction in work compared to scripting: you must test out and re-test out every scenario scripted.

Then there's the issue of brains. Perhaps it requires too many geniuses to create a world that reacts perfectly to a reasonable amount of optional actions? It's easy enough when there are only two steps (kill badguys -> village flourishes),

actually i would be very amazed if they achieve even that far (the "2" step that I mentioned is not trivial). I do not expect ground breaking technology out of nowhere, but like i said, it has to start somewhere. a mixture of scipting and reactive AI may be the first step.

look at what we can achieve with graphics there days. would you imagine it possible just 5 years ago? why can we not expect some emergent gameplay in years to come?

do you still want the same basic gameplay that we've been having since a decade ago? shouldn't people starting trying new ideas? and stuff i mentioned are not impossible to implement.

but things such as rumours and recognition would be expected to spread like rings on the water, and affect a larger part of the game. Or did the PC kill the badguys without revealing their identity? Then there should be a rumour of a masked or otherwise unknown vigilante.

great. as if there are many present crpgs using scripting do that too. i do not think there're many instances in crpg where you play the unknown vigilante.

NWN is emergent - when you kill stuff you become better at killing stuff. Kill good aligned commoners and you become evil.

err... i suggest you to use google to check out the meaning of emergent behaviour.

 

[DemonKing]

Well, personally, while some people may like task cycles for NPCs, I can't say I really do like them. I find it annoying when I get a quest from an NPC located in the town hall, go do itm then return from it and have to hunt down that NPC in town because he went to the tavern to grab a sandwich. Task cycles, to me, seem like a lot of work to add a little realism to the world but at the same time force the player to spend downtime looking around for someone.

Agreed. For my mind they're not worth the extra effort for the minimal return you get for them. I much prefer the idea of Gaider to have NPCs appear to be doing something other than standing around like zombies waiting for the PCs to arrive than implementing an uneccesary D/N cycle...although this isn't too new, since more than a couple of games have features a blacksmith hammering away at an anvil (or even Elmo stumbling around drunk), for instance, it has never been extended to a whole village/city to my knowledge.

Don't you think it a bit odd that this dislike of Bioware's style of game has become a freakish, obsessive personal vendetta against a particular dev?

That's not really fair to Rosh...he hates everyone equally, as far as I can tell.

 

[Neverwhere]

Also, there's just something about being able to actually do things like eat and sleep, that makes you feel like you are the avatar, rather than just controlling it. Like you are playing that role, rather than controlling that character, or worse, merely guiding it through a story (at least adventures, which are essentially this, generally have lots of difficult puzzles).

I guess that the key issue here is what the "role" in RPG relates to. As a (unfortunately former) PnPer, RPGs to me are in a way akin to books. Admittedly, you have a certain leeway in developing your character's role. However, the larger background for you is a given, since it is determined by the omnipresent and omnipotent DM. Furthermore, some DMs will punish or reward you according to how well you play "your role". That role will normally be determined in advance by the player and the DM. However, the judgment on how close the player's performance is to "the role" is entirely up to the DM - therefore, what matters in the end is the DM's conception of the PC's role.

Therefore, the idea of playing a character instead of playing a role seems to me to be alien to the concept of an RPG. I still think that what an RPG basically needs is a good story. The changes which could be made to CRPGs as regards "emergent gameplay" should not go beyond what is needed to emulate a human DM. And a human DM would not change the story simply because the player decides to fuck up. He would rather kill the PC (which is why the Bloodlines solution makes some sense to me)...

As regards day/night circles, I guess they are useful additions that can increase immersion. I would however sacrifice them any time, if developers focus on more other aspects of the game instead, such as well-designed side quests, which ideally have some impact (albeit only marginal) on the main events. Sleeping is alright if implemented as in BG, i.e. with effects on your character's abilities. Eating and drinking however seem to be mere annoyances that don't really add anything to the gameplay at all. Maybe these options make sense in persistent worlds, but they are mere annoyances when you actually want to follow a compelling story.

 

[Sheriff05]

Don't you think it a bit odd that this dislike of Bioware's style of game has become a freakish, obsessive personal vendetta against a particular dev?
.

NO, animosity towards Bioware is what brought many of great minds here together to ponder the castration of the gaming industry. This wholesale neutering was spearheaded by the success of companies like Bioware. Should the excuse making sycophant Biowhores that migrate here ever be able to grasp the fact that the Bioware fanbase has been purposely re-designed to be horny 13 year old boys with ADD, then people like Rosh's criticisms should be seen as merely professional frustration with the fact that the skilled technical acumen of game designers and programmers is completely wasted on hocking shiny nuggets of gold plated shit to the Lowest Common Demoninator. It’s always been this way with popular entertainment, Television, Music, etc. So if you're getting all excited about running out to pick up your new shiny copy of Dragon Age, also pick up the new Ashlee Simpson CD while you're at it since they are essentially the same thing just in different packages. That’s a thought, Lip Synched CRPG’s?, Now that’s innovative, even for Bioware.

 

[tilting_msh]

^ Ok, but my point wasn't if Bioware makes games up the Codex standard or not.

EDIT: Almost missed this.

That's not really fair to Rosh...he hates everyone equally, as far as I can tell.

And THIS is my point: Does the fact that he is belligerent to people over the internet make him cool? Or badass? Cause to me it always comes across as ridiculously forced. Not a badass but somebody trying desperately to look like a badass. There's a big difference.