Game News Dragon Age and day-n-night cycle

[Hory]

Roshambo sucks.

 

[DemonKing]

And THIS is my point: Does the fact that he is belligerent to people over the internet make him cool? Or badass? Cause to me it always comes across as ridiculously forced. Not a badass but somebody trying desperately to look like a badass. There's a big difference.

Look, IRL Rosh is probably pretty insignificant, so he likes to play at being the big man on the net...it's pretty clear that the reason he likes to snap so hard at guys from Bioware and other companies is that unlike him, they've probably achieved something in their lives. Or at least, something that Rosh is jealous of deep down inside.

That's my read on it anyway...I can't believe that anyone could be so passionate about the lack of implementation of Day/Night cycles unless there was some kind of psychological motivation behind it all.

Just take it with a grain of salt...when I first turned up here he made it is personal mission to "skool the noob" out of me even though I've been playing CRPGs since Aklabeth!

 

[AlanC9]

actually i think it's lack of imagination among gamers. to be frank i'm happy with what BethSoft is doing with their radient AI, and what The Sims can do indicates the technology we're talking about, is here. we need more people to invests in these new technologies to progress further. what do you want? prettier graphics and same gameplay that has stagnated since the days of ultima 5? emergent gameplay is what i think will revolutionize crpg, and once someone has done it, no one will want to go back to scripting.

look, we can expect photo-realistic graphics these days, which we wouldn't dare imagine few years ago. why is expecting emergent gameplay be any different?

That depends on whether you think RPGs should be simulations of a real world or not.

I don't think so. I think RPGs are fiction, and should work like fiction. I've got a great deal of respect for the folks who are working on metafiction-based design (anyone know the proper term for that kind of design?). When someone actually delivers something workable along those lines, I might be impressed.

But until then, and probably after then, I'm perfectly happy with games having stories written by human beings.

Edit: nothing wrong with having AI routines to provide basic behaviors in addition to scripted ones, of course. Even NWN does that. I'm just revisiting BG2, and it's amazing how brain-dead BG2 AI was compared to what comes standard on any NWN critter.

 

[Neverwhere]

That depends on whether you think RPGs should be simulations of a real world or not.

I don't think so. I think RPGs are fiction, and should work like fiction. I've got a great deal of respect for the folks who are working on metafiction-based design (anyone know the proper term for that kind of design?). When someone actually delivers something workable along those lines, I might be impressed.

But until then, and probably after then, I'm perfectly happy with games having stories written by human beings.

Good point. I would however add that no world simulator, no matter how good, could ever replace traditional story-based RPGs. Or it would replace movies and books at the same time. Not a likely thought.

 

[Neverwhere]

NO, animosity towards Bioware is what brought many of great minds here together to ponder the castration of the gaming industry. This wholesale neutering was spearheaded by the success of companies like Bioware. Should the excuse making sycophant Biowhores that migrate here ever be able to grasp the fact that the Bioware fanbase has been purposely re-designed to be horny 13 year old boys with ADD, then people like Rosh's criticisms should be seen as merely professional frustration with the fact that the skilled technical acumen of game designers and programmers is completely wasted on hocking shiny nuggets of gold plated shit to the Lowest Common Demoninator. It’s always been this way with popular entertainment, Television, Music, etc. So if you're getting all excited about running out to pick up your new shiny copy of Dragon Age, also pick up the new Ashlee Simpson CD while you're at it since they are essentially the same thing just in different packages. That’s a thought, Lip Synched CRPG’s?, Now that’s innovative, even for Bioware.

You're getting something quite wrong here. "Critical" usually refers to an attitude located somewhere between "sycophantic" and "abrasive". You don't need to ponder anything to be abrasive.

As regards the development of the gaming industry, I don't think that the Bio-Ashlee Simpson analogy holds true. In fact, Bioware's NWN, while a bad SP game, contained a quite decent editor that would have allowed people who consider themselves above the rest to develop a better game. Your Ashlee Simpson CD doesn't empower you in any comparable way (although a Karaoke version may well...).

When you look at the modules actually created, it is easy to see that most of them are crap. However, I do not quite see why Bioware should be to blame for that. If you want to express your feelings about the decline of pop culture, feel free to (I probably share your feelings) - but this may not be the correct forum, given that it deals with RPGs and not with general misanthropy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

When you look at the modules actually created, it is easy to see that most of them are crap. However, I do not quite see why Bioware should be to blame for that.

That's very simple actually. The editor is very, very limited as a lot of things are hardcoded. The editor lacked many tools that were later made by the community like the script generator. Overall, NWN OC was an accurate representation of what could be done with the editor. So, Bio released an overhyped editor incapable of making anything decent and you are asking why Bio should be blamed for that?

 

[Volourn]

"That's very simple actually. The editor is very, very limited as a lot of things are hardcoded."

Bullshit. Anyone who has spoent more than 2 minutes with the editior or has played various mods/PWs would know without a doubt that the NWN editor is anything but limited. Sure, there are hardcoded things; but there is a heck of a lot you can. Only a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about would say otherwise.

 

[Jed]

Actually I would say that there are a few mod-makers that can make decent mods DESPITE the toolset.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"That's very simple actually. The editor is very, very limited as a lot of things are hardcoded."

Bullshit. Anyone who has spoent more than 2 minutes with the editior or has played various mods/PWs would know without a doubt that the NWN editor is anything but limited. Sure, there are hardcoded things; but there is a heck of a lot you can. Only a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about would say otherwise.

Ok, I'm sorry then. I stand corrected and the editor is totally awesome. Now, will you please tell me where I can find some awesome mods made with this awesome editor?

 

[Volourn]

"Actually I would say that there are a few mod-makers that can make decent mods DESPITE the toolset."

You've been known to be wrong once a month. This is this month's time.


"Ok, I'm sorry then. I stand corrected and the editor is totally awesome."

Ah.. Sarcasm. Of course, I never said the editior was perfect; though it surely fits the 'awesome' monnkier'.


" Now, will you please tell me where I can find some awesome mods made with this awesome editor?"

I'm not your babysitter. Besdies, I would presume since NWN sucks so bad you've already sold your copy. However, I'll be nice and give two examples: Hideout, and The Witcheta Chronicles series.


R00fles!

 

[Vault Dweller]

" Now, will you please tell me where I can find some awesome mods made with this awesome editor?"

I'm not your babysitter. Besdies, I would presume since NWN sucks so bad you've already sold your copy. However, I'll be nice and give two examples: Hideout, and The Witcheta Chronicles series.

I did return my copy, but that was a long time ago, and I'm sure I can get another copy for free out of EB's garbage bins. Even if I have to pay something, it could be fun to play those modules that you recommended and either trash the fuck out of them (and you, by association :wink: ) or to be pleasantly surprised. So, where one goes to get these wondrous modules? NWNVault search ses "never heard about them, stop making shit up"

 

[Volourn]

"So, where one goes to get these wondrous modules? NWNVault search ses "never heard about them, stop making shit up"

You go to the Vault in about 6 months.... :!: :wink:

Besides, you hate NWN's gameplay so I doubt you'd like any mod for it since they will all have the same game play. Period even if they do happen to be good.

 

[Sheriff05]

You're getting something quite wrong here. "Critical" usually refers to an attitude located somewhere between "sycophantic" and "abrasive". You don't need to ponder anything to be abrasive.

I don't think so, although I did overlook analysis from the fucking "Mindreaders Union". The fact is that I often ponder what stupid shit I will read on the Codex daily, and it always makes me abrasive, and therefore very critical. I am sure this applies to many of the regulars here. Nice attempt at critical thought, but you need not apply.

As regards the development of the gaming industry, I don't think that the Bio-Ashlee Simpson analogy holds true. In fact, Bioware's NWN, while a bad SP game, contained a quite decent editor that would have allowed people who consider themselves above the rest to develop a better game. Your Ashlee Simpson CD doesn't empower you in any comparable way (although a Karaoke version may well...).

Of course you don't see a comparison because like any other delusional lab rat you want to try to examine and rationalize the content of both instead of both accepting the fact they're both just mass marketed fodder. You think the NWN editor allows you to make a better game?, funny I consider myself very well versed with it and I couldn't use it to redesign the engine or fix the anal rape of the ruleset that was implemented.

When you look at the modules actually created, it is easy to see that most of them are crap. However, I do not quite see why Bioware should be to blame for that. If you want to express your feelings about the decline of pop culture, feel free to (I probably share your feelings) - but this may not be the correct forum, given that it deals with RPGs and not with general misanthropy.

Did you actually want to have a discussion about the merits of NWN?, if so please read the several hundred threads here we have all partaken in over the last few years and then get back to me with a some kind of "point". Kindly don't lecture me on the proper place for my misanthropy as I will kindly tell you to go fuck yourself.

 

[Volourn]

"I couldn't use it to redesign the engine or fix the anal rape of the ruleset that was implemented."

Hi. perhaps you aren't as well adept with the toolset as yout hink youa re. Many people have done just that. of course, youa ren't going to get it an exact replica of pnp D&D because NWN was never pnp D&D and doesn't use full fledge tb combat. What a dummy you are for thinking otherwise.

 

[Sheriff05]

"I couldn't use it to redesign the engine or fix the anal rape of the ruleset that was implemented."

Hi. perhaps you aren't as well adept with the toolset as yout hink youa re. Many people have done just that. of course, youa ren't going to get it an exact replica of pnp D&D because NWN was never pnp D&D and doesn't use full fledge tb combat. What a dummy you are for thinking otherwise.

Probably and as you know I've been out of NWN since shortly after SoU can you link or tell where I can read about toolset mods to the ruleset?, I am not talking about the HCR ruleset.
(I'm familiar with that) I am talking about new changes to fundemental design issues that are very different than the 3rd ed D&D ruleset.(I'm talking mechanics here) If those exisit I'd like to see those. remember although I loath Bioware and as a result dislike NWN, it's still a game for me that "could have been"

 

[Volourn]

"(I'm talking mechanics here)"

What do you mean by mechanics? You mean make it turn based? Like I said above, that's not gonna hapen unles sosmeone completely hacks the engine and if that's what they wanted to do perhaps they'd be best to make their own game. HCR is a great example (though it's not perfect) of how much of the D&D rules - mechanics or otherwise - can be mad using the NWN toolset.


"could have been"

You are just amd they didn't babysit YOUR needs and actually aided SP fans too.


R00fles!

 

[Sheriff05]

"(I'm talking mechanics here)"
?????

Discipline, Parry and all that nonsense ring a bell, R00fles?

Hey I'm not having another fucking stupid NWN discussion with you, R00fles.

Let me just end it now by saying you're right and we're all dumb, our opinions are merely R00fles

R00fles.

 

[Volourn]

"Discipline, Parry and all that nonsense ring a bell, R00fles?"

Not that I know off even thoguh I actually like that 'nonsense'. I do know feats can be 'disabled' and amny of themc an be changed. I'm sure skills can be too. However, mechanics like those have been changed.


"Hey I'm not having another fucking stupid NWN discussion with you, R00fles."

I'll survive either way.


"Let me just end it now by saying you're right and we're all dumb, our opinions are merely R00fles"

Nah. Reverse that and I'm sure yo'll have lots of epople agreeing with you. Afterall, I'm stupid and retarded and a moronics fanboy who DARED to rate the OC 75%, and cirticize KOTOR.

R00fles!



P.S. NWN MP still averages 3k-6k. Not ready to die yet inspite of your Nostradomeus like predictions. :D

 

[Human Shield]

High-level modding involves altering gameplay. Team Fortress created class-based capture the flag out of Quake. NWN modding involves finding new ways to make OMG cool cutscenes telling a cliche fanboy plot.

 

[Volourn]

"Team Fortress created class-based capture the flag out of Quake."

That's cool. NWN has 'Capture the Flag' too. Next.

 

[RGE]

NWN is emergent - when you kill stuff you become better at killing stuff. Kill good aligned commoners and you become evil.

err... i suggest you to use google to check out the meaning of emergent behaviour.

Well, I was only joking, hence the smiley and the example of some faint shadow of emergent gameplay that could be spotted in the NWN OC. I don't know for sure what emergent gameplay is, but I assume that it's gameplay where the world changes based on the player's actions and then offers a new options and alternatives due to these changes. If I'm assuming too much, feel free to show me a link an explanation because the www.wikipedia.org page scared me with its many foreign languages.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whatever story you'll get from emergent gameplay can be scripted much easier and thus a better/longer story can be scripted with the same resources.

i disagree. remember what i said about the problem of scaling for scripting and scripting being not a long term solution? for every new game/mission you would need to script for new scenarios. with NPC reacting to surroundings it is reusable once you defined the set of behaviours and receptors. You can reuse it again and again for future games too (much like graphic libraries). A further consideration is the reduction in testing: you're reusing the same AI library for past game. there's a great deal of reduction in work compared to scripting: you must test out and re-test out every scenario scripted.

No, I don't remember anything. My point was that if you give a player freedom within the gameworld they'll not necessarily (or even probably) create a more enjoyable story for themselves than what someone else could script for them. Most of my civilization scenarios have been less than riveting, and that seems to be the case in whatever game the player is given a lot of freedom. Sure, I love that kind of freedom, but apparently enough others, such as those who still read books and watch movies instead of playing PnP RPGs, prefer the stories someone else creates for them. Or they're at least willing to put up with such stories, and have been for a very long time now. Even my PnP pals seem to enjoy heavily railroaded RPG scenarios, although it could be that they take what they can get, and due to time constraints, what they can get is official content.

look at what we can achieve with graphics there days. would you imagine it possible just 5 years ago? why can we not expect some emergent gameplay in years to come?

Eh...5 years ago? Sure. Technology moves forward at an incredible pace. The human brain though, does not. And to do what you're asking for, I'm thinking that we're limited by the human brain. Or maybe it's just the economic model behind computer games. Just like in the movies it's only necessary to show what people will see, and as long as you don't need an actual world filled with the fictional stuff, you'll find it very difficult to justify spending resources on such a world. Maybe when a CRPG company has grown to be big enough that they find it worth the investment to create some kind of AI library we'll see it, but even then that AI library won't guarantee interesting stories. It would probably be great to have in the background of scripted stories though.

do you still want the same basic gameplay that we've been having since a decade ago? shouldn't people starting trying new ideas? and stuff i mentioned are not impossible to implement.

No, I want what you want, but I don't think I'll get it. And even if I do get it, I don't think that it'll replace restricted gameplay. A scripted game is closer to a book than an emergent game, and since people still read books, obviously there's a large market for things with little or no control over the story. I hear that the Final Fantasy RPGs are like that, and there's a huge market for those.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Also, there's just something about being able to actually do things like eat and sleep, that makes you feel like you are the avatar, rather than just controlling it. Like you are playing that role, rather than controlling that character, or worse, merely guiding it through a story (at least adventures, which are essentially this, generally have lots of difficult puzzles).

That something is ANNOYING MICROMANAGEMENT. Forcing the player to sleep periodically because his avatar needs to sleep just for the sake of sleeping is often frustrating and bothersome, just another thing to manage with very little upside and a whole lot of downside. Don't sleep? Watch your stats drop. Same thing goes for eating, only it has the additional burden of forcing the player to carry around and buy food.

 

[Stark]

If I'm assuming too much, feel free to show me a link an explanation because the www.wikipedia.org page scared me with its many foreign languages.

I got this description of emergent behaviour from a google: "... these are all examples of emergent phenomena where a collection of individuals interact without central control to produce results which are not explicitly "programmed"."

that's about the gist of it. individually each component are given limited intelligence/receptors but collectively they behaved in amazing and somewhat unexpected/unscripted (and hopefully intelligent) manner. beehive (a complex construct) is a good example of emergent behaviour. individually each bee is pretty dumb. but collectively they can construct a complex construct such as a beehive. it's pretty puzzling. scientists call it emergent behaviour.

so using my example again, each NPC are given limited memory of effects visited upon them (got ambushed by gang in gang infested area) and limited intelligence (avoid area oft ambushed by gang) would result in that particular district go poor (no business since NPC do not frequent). (This is assuming there's an underlying economic model there too.)

now you, as a hero, eliminated the gang. NPC, with their limited memory, wandered by chance into the district and didn't got fed the previous stimuli (not ambushed) and they start visiting the district again. the economy prosper and district do well again.

the coder just coded the limited memory and intelligence of NPC, and the underlying economic model. However the prospering of district is not scripted. it is emergent.

it can go further. assuming the underlying economic model is good, the prospering of this district would have chain effect: some other districts suddenly do less well now, and crime flared up elsewhere.

that's the good thing implementing the program like this. You code limited stuff but can let it roll... and chain effect upon effect, and things evolve themselves. you do not need to script them. often there're surprising stuff happening that coder themselves got surprised.

now imagine you, as an anti-hero, joined the gang and terrorize the district instead. NPC are fed even stronger stimuli (avoid the area!!!!) and district go into downward spiral even quicker. Again, you as coder do not need to script this scenario. using the same set of AI script emergent behaviour would take care of it. See what i mean about less work in the long term?

another thing: once such effects are sufficiently tested, you reuse the AI library in other part of game/another game, and do not need extensive testing again vs pure scripting. this is why i say emergent behaviour is the long term solution.

No, I don't remember anything.

i just said that in my previous post.

My point was that if you give a player freedom within the gameworld they'll not necessarily (or even probably) create a more enjoyable story for themselves than what someone else could script for them.

of course not. no one guarantees it'll be successful in the first few tries. but should that ever be a disincentive to dissuade us from trying new things/ideas?

another point, which i mentioned before too: AI has not progressed sufficiently for it to take control totally. a mixture of scripting and emergent behaviour is the more realistic approach. hence a well written hand crafted story is not out of question in such a game. The overal story is still dictated by developers, but individual behaviours are let run free and coders and gamers have fun observing emergent behaviour.

what happend in NWN OC are strictly scripted stuff. if scripter forgot to take care of certain scenarios then that scenario would never happen.

to keep interest going, emergent behaviour could go far deeper than what i descriped. imagine you playing as a vampire preying only on evil NPC outdoor at night. suddenly less thieves/robbers venture out to steal at night (stimuli: danger!!! avoid outdoor at night!!!!) and crime in city goes down, and decent peasants start venturing out at night again. You, as the vampire, notice more NPC peasants merrymaking out on street at night. if the underlying economic model is sufficiently good, you may even notice shop owners keep their shop open much later (stimuli: good business, keep working).

the roll on could go on and on, and totally unexpected effects on other parts of the world. all do not need to be scripted. Getting the hang of it now?

the stuff i described are not trivial to implement, but neither is it rocket science. some limited form of it can be implemented already. you can do some googling to find out more...

 

[Stark]

Edit: nothing wrong with having AI routines to provide basic behaviors in addition to scripted ones, of course. Even NWN does that. I'm just revisiting BG2, and it's amazing how brain-dead BG2 AI was compared to what comes standard on any NWN critter.

I think we're on the same wavelength just that i prefer it to go far deeper. you might want to read my long rant above to RGE.

 

[EvoG]

I wish I caught this thread earlier, and I hope you dont mind me sharing my two cents.

Recently the *cough*dev team*/cough* and I were going over some of the axioms of role playing games, both in their truest form, PnP and of course CRPG, and have come to some conclusions :

Day/Night cycles are absolutely fantastic and satisfying from the point of sheer verisimilitude, but incur terrible, terrible requirments, especially for a small team like ours. Killzig asked me (after posting those initial screens of the infamous gas station) if I was planning on making that lighitng realtime. I said no, not realtime but rather time loaded. If you entered a town at night, I'd load the nighttime lightmaps. Simple. Have maybe 6 - 8 broad lightmap schemes for those 3 to 4 'periods' of the day that look different. Fine. Then I came across a method for doing our lighting in realtime yet maintain that 'look' (for those that recall). So what flooded in were thoughts of managing the townspeople and their schedules, maintaining this heavy script for all the folk, guards, shops and whatnot. Awful. We just exponentially created more work for ourselves, but for how much gain? Law of diminishing returns rears its head. We would get the least amount of mileage out of that last 10% that would require 6 - 8 times the workload! Is this necessary? Of course not. Is it cool...damn straight. But what are your priorities for the game? What if I added the day/night cycle only to leave it a visual treat, but didn't exploit the atmosphere and thoroughly script the world-sim? I've short changed the expectations of the player and have added nothing of real benefit, so, I MUST make sure that if I add one (day/night) I have to add the other (world-sim) and now you just have a REAL mess of work to do, again, with potentially marginal gain. I'm not doing a world sim I'm telling a story.

Slight tangent. Another axiom, combat. I read the other thread regarding what people wanted to see in TB combat, and we got to thinking about combat in KotoR, combat in PnP games and of course combat in table top battles such as Warhammer. I asked a very similar question, "do you guys want real TB combat or just Fallout TB combat", or something to that effect, and I was surprised that what people wanted more was Fallout combat, that Silent Storm's combat was almost 'too much'! Interesting revelation to say the least. Well whats the point here : PnP combat never took 'movement combat' into account. It was a bunch of guys yelling out what they wanted to do, but never was it examined if the player was "two feet too far" to attack the kobold. Not until miniatures were added or the systems revolved more around full scale battles like Warhammer did that even matter. KotoR, and most of Bioware's games arguably follow the truer form of PnP combat, short of adding real turn base. The only thing that matters are the characters stats. Above Silent Storm where the player actually has to bring some of himself to the fight (tactics), which is no different than an action game, where the player there has to bring his dexterity. Combat has been such a focal point, that it seems to define the game in question more than its character growth or story. Talk of day/night cycles is in the same category. Unless an arbitrary checklist is met, the game is poo-pooed. This is a tad silly and idealistic.

The genre opened up a lot more for me after this. Where once I barfed on Final Fantasy or thumbed my nose at this game or that, I failed to realise that there is something to be said about the sheer variety and concept of this one genre. While I will never like an FF game, LOTS will. Bioware has found that certain balance, good or bad is irrelevent, but they found a way to make their games 'accessible' without being simplistic or complex. KotoR 2 proved that you can stretch an already good game ( KotoR 1 ) and add an even deeper story and dare I say, the best party interaction ever in gaming. Bioware laid a foundation that Obsidian was able to exploit and benefit, but offer something truly powerful. No day/night cycle there and I didn't miss it.

Alright, this was an obvious opportunity to soap-box a bit on gaming. Realism vs. Gameplay I think is the most appropriate umbrella for all points of contention here. Regardless of any choices developers make, the bottom line is the entertainment. If the world is compelling to explore, the story captivating enough to want to learn more and characters that are entertaining and believable, isn't it rather arbitrary if those brief explosive moments of combat are TB or RT? If the game is combat heavy, or hell, entirely combat, isn't it THEN more relevent? If day/night adds little to the gameplay, again, assuming the game is not a world-sim, just as it may not be a combat-sim, whats the point? Its not easy to do and IS time consuming if its going to be done right, or as they say, then why do it at all?

Oh and for those that were discussing emergence. A) its not a myth Ex. B) its derivation can be accidental, outside of the designers specific design C) exists most strongly in systems of simple but coherent rules(intelligence is irrelevent). This isn't a huge deal, but the reason its difficult to manage in story driven games is the rather chaotic nature of simple rule-set interaction. Can be very rewarding but can also break a game, especially when the designer needs enough control to tell a linear story. We worked on some game designs I want to explore in the future, where the entire system is based on simple rules to affect the larger system in a big sandbox. Proj Phoenix was far more simple-systems based, but left me designing interactions more than weaving a tighter story, which has been more my intention, but damn, I'm just fascinated by toys. :D

Cheers all